Can Calvinism survive Romans 9‽

Kilk1 · Apr 8, 2019

Romans 8:28-9:33 is often considered the strongest text of Calvinism, the view that God chooses some for salvation without free will being a factor. Basically, it's the view that no one can choose to follow God unless He predestines you to change. Near the end of the passage, Paul writes, "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (9:21, NKJV). Thinking of God as potter and man as clay could be interpreted to mean He makes some of us to be good and others to be sinful. It especially could sound this way when He mentions making "one vessel for honor and another for dishonor."

But which action causes the other? Does a Christian serve God in faith because God made him into a "vessel for honor" (which I believe is the Calvinistic position), or does God make a Christian into a "vessel for honor" because he serves God in faith (the freewill position)?

Paul asks us a question: "What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction..." (v. 22)? But God wouldn't be longsuffering toward people if He never intended for them to be saved, would He? This suggests He does desire the vessels of wrath to repent and be saved!

Furthermore, by mentioning honorable and dishonorable vessels, Paul seems to be alluding to Jeremiah 18:1-10. Here, God discusses how a potter begins "making something at the wheel" (v. 3). However, the vessel ends up getting "marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make" (v. 4). Notice that while the potter was going to make one thing, the marring of the vessel led him to remake it "into another vessel." In the same way, God says that if He decrees to destroy a nation (i.e., make them into a vessel of dishonor) but they repent, then He'll change His plans for them (vv. 5-8). The same works in reverse as well (vv. 9-10).

It appears the freewill position is supported because 1) God is "longsuffering" toward "the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (Romans 9:22), suggesting He wants them to repent, and 2) Paul's discussion of honorable/dishonorable vessels seems to be alluding to Jeremiah 18:1-10, which teaches that God's decrees can change if we change. If my trail of thought contains any errors, let me know. Thanks!

Ellen Brown · Apr 8, 2019

I don't know if I was chosen or if I chose. These days I am all alone, free of most distractions. Perhaps my family deserting me is actually a blessing? I do know with deep certainty that the Creator is ever before my eyes, and my focus is on knowing and pleasing him. According to Solomon, the rest is all vanity.

Kilk1 · Apr 8, 2019

Ellen Brown said:
I don't know if I was chosen or if I chose. These days I am all alone, free of most distractions. Perhaps my family deserting me is actually a blessing? I do know with deep certainty that the Creator is ever before my eyes, and my focus is on knowing and pleasing him. According to Solomon, the rest is all vanity.

I desire to look to the Scriptures to find the answers. People interpret certain passages (such as the passage of this thread) differently, but two contradictory interpretations can't both be right. Therefore, I hope those with a different view will join the thread and have a discussion. If it happens, feel free to read and/or participate.

Ellen Brown · Apr 8, 2019

Kilk1 said:
I desire to look to the Scriptures to find the answers. People interpret certain passages (such as the passage of this thread) differently, but two contradictory interpretations can't both be right. Therefore, I hope those with a different view will join the thread and have a discussion. If it happens, feel free to read and/or participate.

I was raised with no religion until I was 27, and was then a Christian Fundamentalist for 33 years. With the Christian reaction to 9/11, I left Christianity in disgust and became Muslim for over 7 years. I came back to Christianity briefly, though I never disavowed Islam, through the Mormons, for about 5 years. Through Mormon leadership I learned that I would never be acceptable to God. These days I am a very distant "Abrahamic Religionist", and most of the Christian Denominations would not accept me, nor I them.

Recently, I realized that the KJV Bible is not what I thought, and King James, the man who authorized its production was a murderer several times over. Thankfully, at 72, it will all be over for me soon. When I meet God for judgement, I will say that despite my many failings, I tried as hard as I could to please him.

Kilk1 · Apr 8, 2019

Ellen Brown said:
I was raised with no religion until I was 27, and was then a Christian Fundamentalist for 33 years. With the Christian reaction to 9/11, I left Christianity in disgust and became Muslim for over 7 years. I came back to Christianity briefly, though I never disavowed Islam, through the Mormons, for about 5 years. Through Mormon leadership I learned that I would never be acceptable to God. These days I am a very distant "Abrahamic Religionist", and most of the Christian Denominations would not accept me, nor I them.

Recently, I realized that the KJV Bible is not what I thought, and King James, the man who authorized its production was a murderer several times over. Thankfully, at 72, it will all be over for me soon. When I meet God for judgement, I will say that despite my many failings, I tried as hard as I could to please him.

This is an interesting story. Do you believe in the Bible today?

Ellen Brown · Apr 8, 2019

Kilk1 said:
This is an interesting story. Do you believe in the Bible today?

Which one and what version? I don't support the "pure inerrancy" idea, and those who said they did proved themselves to be very flawed. I see the Bible as a story where primitive man did his best to explain what he saw. Is it worth memorizing like I once tried to do? That's doubtful. Romans 8 was once committed to memory, but I can't remember it anymore. The Gospels taught me about Jesus the Christ, but what happened after that is of questionable value. It all seemed to fall apart, and what those who became the early Catholics, and Constantine did was very wrong.

There is no Original Sin, or Trinity, or Transubstantiation. I think the early Popes were despots, who did a very evil thing with Celibacy, and STILL have not corrected that. Most do not understand that the institution of Celibacy was a money maker for the Popes, and is the reason for unspeakable pain in that church today. I experienced some of that but was not Catholic.

The most meaningful lesson of the Old Testament is Micah 6:8, 8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? The New Testament gave us "The Lord's Prayer",

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

. I've recently encountered folk who think that the fulfillment of Revelations has already happened. ????

The Quran is a book of sayings, while the Hadiths are a good read too. The Fatwas have become a scourge of the people, especially the women. Like Christianity didn't last long after the Crucifiction, Islam quickly strayed after Muhammad PBUH died.

Katzpur · Apr 9, 2019

Ellen Brown said:
When I meet God for judgement, I will say that despite my many failings, I tried as hard as I could to please him.

My all-time favorite LDS author is the late Stephen E. Robinson. Here's how he would tell you God looks at your "many failings": “God knows our circumstances, and He judges us accordingly. He knows who is standing in a hole and who is standing on a chair, and He does not just measure height – He measures growth.”

Clear · Apr 11, 2019

POST ONE OF TWO

Kilk1 said:
Romans 8:28-9:33 is often considered the strongest text of Calvinism, the view that God chooses some for salvation without free will being a factor. Basically, it's the view that no one can choose to follow God unless He predestines you to change. Near the end of the passage, Paul writes, "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (9:21, NKJV). Thinking of God as potter and man as clay could be interpreted to mean He makes some of us to be good and others to be sinful. It especially could sound this way when He mentions making "one vessel for honor and another for dishonor."

But which action causes the other? Does a Christian serve God in faith because God made him into a "vessel for honor" (which I believe is the Calvinistic position), or does God make a Christian into a "vessel for honor" because he serves God in faith (the freewill position)?

Paul asks us a question: "What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction..." (v. 22)? But God wouldn't be longsuffering toward people if He never intended for them to be saved, would He? This suggests He does desire the vessels of wrath to repent and be saved!

Furthermore, by mentioning honorable and dishonorable vessels, Paul seems to be alluding to Jeremiah 18:1-10. Here, God discusses how a potter begins "making something at the wheel" (v. 3). However, the vessel ends up getting "marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make" (v. 4). Notice that while the potter was going to make one thing, the marring of the vessel led him to remake it "into another vessel." In the same way, God says that if He decrees to destroy a nation (i.e., make them into a vessel of dishonor) but they repent, then He'll change His plans for them (vv. 5-8). The same works in reverse as well (vv. 9-10).

It appears the freewill position is supported because 1) God is "longsuffering" toward "the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (Romans 9:22), suggesting He wants them to repent, and 2) Paul's discussion of honorable/dishonorable vessels seems to be alluding to Jeremiah 18:1-10, which teaches that God's decrees can change if we change. If my trail of thought contains any errors, let me know. Thanks!

Hi Kilk :

I do not believe the Christian movements that adopt “pre-destination” as a model of how God using individual as chess pieces, where individuals have no choice is as logical and rational as the early Christian model where an individual is free to chose the consequences of their choices. I wish the early English translators had NOT rendered προορισας in Romans 8:29 as “pre-destinate”.

For example, the translators of the KJV rendered Eph 1:5 as :
“Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ…. (Eph 1:5)
" προορισας ημας εις υιο θεσιαν δια ιησου χριστου….)”

and the translators rendered Rom 8:29 as
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son…(Rom 8:29) "οτι ους προεγνω και προωρισεν συμμορφους της εικονος του υιου….

I wish the biblical translators of the influential King James Version had used and expressed their translation of this concept differently. A version of the concept of “plan” (such as the translator Box often used) would have worked better than of a form of “destiny” in their translation of such sentences. Using the words “pre” and “destiny” in this translation creates a base reasoning for developing a doctrine of a “pre-destination” (which is inconsistent with the early judeo-christian concept of personal agency) whereas of a reference to an organized set of conditions, boundaries, characteristics, etc. (i.e. the concept of a cosmic “plan”) is a better translation and it protects the early Christian concept of personal agency and choice.

Just as the “foreknowledge” of God is inherent to the early Judeo-Christian Doctrine that God created a great cosmic “plan” to use a mortal experience to educate the spirits of mankind in social and moral laws that would prepare them to live in a social heaven in joy and harmony, his plan and it's moral laws had “properties” and “limitations” and “boundaries” and “order” to it. This concept underlies and is implied in the word “Οριζω”, which, concepts do not come out accurately if one renders οριζω as “destiny”. (though curiously, they rendered the translation more correctly in other parts of the N.T.)

Using the word "destiny" for οριζω is quite inconsistent with the common usages of this term in the peri c.e. era. For example, in common (κοινε) greek usage in the New Testament, one did use the word οριζω in context of a "destiny", but rather as a territory or district having distinct boundaries, or, in the case of time, it was used to describe a day that was specified, or, in a concept similar to it’s usage in God’s plan, it could be used to describe an “appointed term” (such as the time between birth and death – that is, a time period that was set apart for a specific purpose).

In all cases, it refers to certain properties that suggest boundaries and limitations and conditions that apply to this time period, that is, it refers to a plan for mankind, but not an unalterable “destiny” for an individuals damnation or salvation regardless of their own will. I understand why the translators used “pre-destinated”, but I wish they had used different terms. Moulton and Milligin demonstrated in the last century that Οριζω was been used in early papyri to indicate a very firm plan, such as an “order”, again, in the context of a set of boundaries and limitations consistent with a “will” or a “plan” (God’s plan in this case) rather than a "destiny".

Context of οριζω inside early judeo-christian usage :

The early judeo-christian texts speak of God having established a plan for mortality for mankind. The Prophet Enoch relates God describing this period and his plan for mankind, saying “Before any visible things had come into existence, and the light had not yet opened up, I, in the midst of the light, moved around in the invisible things, like one of them, as the sun moves around from east to west and from west to east. But the sun has rest; yet I did not find rest, because everything was not yet created. And I thought up the idea of establishing a foundation, to create a visible creation. 2nd Enoch (version “A”) 23:2, 24:1-5

The very nature of this plan required that physical and moral and chronological boundaries and conditions were involved. Examples of such usage of this specific term and it’s early context are found in early papyri such as Amherst and Tebtunis Papyri (b.c. 106 and 2nd c.e. respectively)

The concept of constraints of Time and physical conditions involved in God’s plan to educate the spirits of mankind are woven into many early judeo-christian texts. The prophet Ezra asks God “…could you not have created at one time those who have been and those who are and those who will be, that you might show your judgment the sooner?” He replied to me and said, ”The creation cannot make more haste than the Creator, neither can the world hold at one time those who have been created in it.”... “Ask a woman’s womb, and say to it, ‘If you bear ten children, why one after another?’ Request it then therefore to produce ten at one time.” I said, “Of course it cannot, but only each in it’s own time.” He said to me, “Even so have I given the womb of the earth to those who from time to time are sown in it. For as an infant dose not bring forth, and a woman who had become old does not bring forth any longer, so have I organized the world which I created.”(the Fourth Book of Ezra 5:41-49)

This “organization” of the world and conditions and limitations and boundaries of God’s plan are part of the context of this “plan” and underlie usage of the word “οριζο”. You can start to see why the word “planned” would have great clarification over the term “predestined” if early Christian translators had thought to use the better term. (Modern translators of early sacred text have the advantage of hind sight…)

It is not merely chronology that must have been determined and planned for in this great plan of God for mankind, but all important principles were set out, Thus the apostolic Father Diognetus taught regarding God the Fathers plan : “… after conceiving a great and marvelous plan, he communicated it to this Child alone….. But when he revealed it through his beloved Child and made known the things prepared from the beginning, he gave us everything at once, both to share in his benefits and to see and understand things which none of us ever would have expected.. So then, having already planned everything in his mind together with his child, he permitted us during the former time to be carried away by undisciplined impulses as we desired, led astray by pleasures and lusts, not at all because he took delight in our sins, but because he was patient; not because he approved of that former season of unrighteousness, but because he was creating the present season of righteousness, in order that we who in the former time were convicted by our own deeds as unworthy of life might now by the goodness of God be made worthy, and, having clearly demonstrated our inability to enter the kingdom of God on our own, might be enabled to do so by God’s power (Ep. to Diognetus 8:9-11 & 9:1)

Thus, man was, among other things, to learn the two great lessons of justice (i.e. what one deserves) and mercy (i.e. the giving of undeserved favor) inside this great cosmic plan. The Implications as to how the first covenant/law of moses (O.T. e.g. "justice") interfaces with the later covenant/law of Jesus (N.T. e.g. "mercy") is obvious and profound if man is an eternal being, learning eternal laws.

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS

Clear · Apr 11, 2019

POST TWO OF TWO

All of these conditions were planned for and set out, and existed in spiritual realms before the physical creation existed. Thus 2nd Clement was referring to this point when telling the earliest judeo-christians, that “… the Books and the Apostles declare that the church not only exists now, but has been in existence from the beginning. For she was spiritual, as was also our Jesus, but was revealed in the last days in order that she might save us. … For this flesh is a copy of the spirit. No one, therefore, who corrupts the copy will share in the original” (Note : the eternally existing organization...) (2nd Clement 14:3)

Thus Hermas in the early New Testament (C. sinaiticus) epistle spoke of the church in speaking to the angel about his vision : “Who do you think the elderly woman from whom you received the little book was?” I said : “The Sibyl.” “You are wrong,” he said. “She is not.” “Then who is she?” I said. “The Church” he replied. I said to him “Why, then, is she elderly?” “Because,” he said, “she was created before all things; therefore she is elderly, and for her sake the world was formed.” (Hermas 8:1)

Just as a building exists "spiritually" in a detailed blue-print before it exists "physically" (i.e. is "created", the “Church” as an Εκκλεσια (the assembly of those who are invited, summoned or “called out” ‘εκ-καλεο’ of a larger group) also existed from the early stages in this plan long before it existed physically after physical creation. Thus the prophet Enoch says that “There is no such thing as non-existence before him. (Even) before the world was created, he knows what is forever and what will be from generation to generation…”Enoch 39:11

Thus, in early judeo-christian texts, it is clear that the great plan of the Almighty God (the Father) dealt with all details and contingencies from before birth, to earthly conditions and to death and on to the judgment of mankind. ALL details and conditions of this plan were set down beforehand. Thus the prophet Enoch taught his children : “For I am swearing to you, my children, that before any person existed, a place of judgment was prepared for him, and the scale and the weight by means of which a person will be tested were prepared there ahead of the time….” (2nd Enoch mp 49:2)

In this context, the plan, including the creation of mortality with it's conditions as well as a manner of judgment was prepared ahead of time, rather than judgment of an individual being "pre-destined" or "pre-determined".

The patriarch Napthali tells his sons that a plan for a Judgment exists, still, God knows from his προγνοσιςor foreknowledge of the nature of the individual spirits of mankind, how they will choose with faced with moral and social choices they will experience in their mortal lives, “For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body. And from one to the other there is no discrepancy, not so much as a third of a hair, for all the creation of the Most High was according to height, measure, and standard (i.e. the “boundaries, limits and conditions we are speaking of…) And just as the potter knows the use of each vessel and to what it is suited, so also the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. For there is no form or conception which the Lord does not know since he created every human being according to his own image. Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5;

Kilk;

I’ve got to stop somewhere else I can’t get other important things done today. My points are that

1 - the translation using the word “predestine” for προοριζω is faulty

2 - the early papyri of the period demonstrate that οριζω was used in the context of boundaries, limitations, conditions, chronological designations in the context of a “plan” of God

And Importantly

3 - The early judeo-christian context and worldview allowed God to predict with accuracy what would befall a person due to his great foreknowledge of them, but that he did not force or predestinate them to do evil (or good) is more rational and logical than the later theory that it did not matter what a person did, they were going to heaven or hell regardless of their choices.

In any case Kilk, I hope you have a wonderful journey during this life and in determining what it is you are going to believe in this life.

Clear
ειφιφυω

sooda · Apr 11, 2019

Kilk1 said:
Romans 8:28-9:33 is often considered the strongest text of Calvinism, the view that God chooses some for salvation without free will being a factor. Basically, it's the view that no one can choose to follow God unless He predestines you to change. Near the end of the passage, Paul writes, "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (9:21, NKJV).

Thinking of God as potter and man as clay could be interpreted to mean He makes some of us to be good and others to be sinful. It especially could sound this way when He mentions making "one vessel for honor and another for dishonor."

But which action causes the other? Does a Christian serve God in faith because God made him into a "vessel for honor" (which I believe is the Calvinistic position), or does God make a Christian into a "vessel for honor" because he serves God in faith (the freewill position)?

Paul asks us a question: "What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction..." (v. 22)? But God wouldn't be longsuffering toward people if He never intended for them to be saved, would He? This suggests He does desire the vessels of wrath to repent and be saved!

Furthermore, by mentioning honorable and dishonorable vessels, Paul seems to be alluding to Jeremiah 18:1-10. Here, God discusses how a potter begins "making something at the wheel" (v. 3). However, the vessel ends up getting "marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make" (v. 4). Notice that while the potter was going to make one thing, the marring of the vessel led him to remake it "into another vessel." In the same way, God says that if He decrees to destroy a nation (i.e., make them into a vessel of dishonor) but they repent, then He'll change His plans for them (vv. 5-8). The same works in reverse as well (vv. 9-10).

It appears the freewill position is supported because 1) God is "longsuffering" toward "the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (Romans 9:22), suggesting He wants them to repent, and 2) Paul's discussion of honorable/dishonorable vessels seems to be alluding to Jeremiah 18:1-10, which teaches that God's decrees can change if we change. If my trail of thought contains any errors, let me know. Thanks!

Jeremiah 24:2 One basket had very good figs, like those ...
https://biblehub.com/jeremiah/24-2.htm

24:1-10 Good and bad figs represent the Jews in captivity, and those who remain in their own land. - The prophet saw two baskets of figs set before the temple, as offerings of first-fruits.

Kilk1 · Apr 11, 2019

Clear said:
POST ONE OF TWO

Hi Kilk :

I do not believe the Christian movements that adopt “pre-destination” as a model of how God using individual as chess pieces, where individuals have no choice is as logical and rational as the early Christian model where an individual is free to chose the consequences of their choices. I wish the early English translators had NOT rendered προορισας in Romans 8:29 as “pre-destinate”.

For example, the translators of the KJV rendered Eph 1:5 as :
“Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ…. (Eph 1:5)
" προορισας ημας εις υιο θεσιαν δια ιησου χριστου….)”

and the translators rendered Rom 8:29 as
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son…(Rom 8:29) "οτι ους προεγνω και προωρισεν συμμορφους της εικονος του υιου….

I wish the biblical translators of the influential King James Version had used and expressed their translation of this concept differently. A version of the concept of “plan” (such as the translator Box often used) would have worked better than of a form of “destiny” in their translation of such sentences. Using the words “pre” and “destiny” in this translation creates a base reasoning for developing a doctrine of a “pre-destination” (which is inconsistent with the early judeo-christian concept of personal agency) whereas of a reference to an organized set of conditions, boundaries, characteristics, etc. (i.e. the concept of a cosmic “plan”) is a better translation and it protects the early Christian concept of personal agency and choice.

Just as the “foreknowledge” of God is inherent to the early Judeo-Christian Doctrine that God created a great cosmic “plan” to use a mortal experience to educate the spirits of mankind in social and moral laws that would prepare them to live in a social heaven in joy and harmony, his plan and it's moral laws had “properties” and “limitations” and “boundaries” and “order” to it. This concept underlies and is implied in the word “Οριζω”, which, concepts do not come out accurately if one renders οριζω as “destiny”. (though curiously, they rendered the translation more correctly in other parts of the N.T.)

Using the word "destiny" for οριζω is quite inconsistent with the common usages of this term in the peri c.e. era. For example, in common (κοινε) greek usage in the New Testament, one did use the word οριζω in context of a "destiny", but rather as a territory or district having distinct boundaries, or, in the case of time, it was used to describe a day that was specified, or, in a concept similar to it’s usage in God’s plan, it could be used to describe an “appointed term” (such as the time between birth and death – that is, a time period that was set apart for a specific purpose).

In all cases, it refers to certain properties that suggest boundaries and limitations and conditions that apply to this time period, that is, it refers to a plan for mankind, but not an unalterable “destiny” for an individuals damnation or salvation regardless of their own will. I understand why the translators used “pre-destinated”, but I wish they had used different terms. Moulton and Milligin demonstrated in the last century that Οριζω was been used in early papyri to indicate a very firm plan, such as an “order”, again, in the context of a set of boundaries and limitations consistent with a “will” or a “plan” (God’s plan in this case) rather than a "destiny".

Context of οριζω inside early judeo-christian usage :

The early judeo-christian texts speak of God having established a plan for mortality for mankind. The Prophet Enoch relates God describing this period and his plan for mankind, saying “Before any visible things had come into existence, and the light had not yet opened up, I, in the midst of the light, moved around in the invisible things, like one of them, as the sun moves around from east to west and from west to east. But the sun has rest; yet I did not find rest, because everything was not yet created. And I thought up the idea of establishing a foundation, to create a visible creation. 2nd Enoch (version “A”) 23:2, 24:1-5

The very nature of this plan required that physical and moral and chronological boundaries and conditions were involved. Examples of such usage of this specific term and it’s early context are found in early papyri such as Amherst and Tebtunis Papyri (b.c. 106 and 2nd c.e. respectively)

The concept of constraints of Time and physical conditions involved in God’s plan to educate the spirits of mankind are woven into many early judeo-christian texts. The prophet Ezra asks God “…could you not have created at one time those who have been and those who are and those who will be, that you might show your judgment the sooner?” He replied to me and said, ”The creation cannot make more haste than the Creator, neither can the world hold at one time those who have been created in it.”... “Ask a woman’s womb, and say to it, ‘If you bear ten children, why one after another?’ Request it then therefore to produce ten at one time.” I said, “Of course it cannot, but only each in it’s own time.” He said to me, “Even so have I given the womb of the earth to those who from time to time are sown in it. For as an infant dose not bring forth, and a woman who had become old does not bring forth any longer, so have I organized the world which I created.”(the Fourth Book of Ezra 5:41-49)

This “organization” of the world and conditions and limitations and boundaries of God’s plan are part of the context of this “plan” and underlie usage of the word “οριζο”. You can start to see why the word “planned” would have great clarification over the term “predestined” if early Christian translators had thought to use the better term. (Modern translators of early sacred text have the advantage of hind sight…)

It is not merely chronology that must have been determined and planned for in this great plan of God for mankind, but all important principles were set out, Thus the apostolic Father Diognetus taught regarding God the Fathers plan : “… after conceiving a great and marvelous plan, he communicated it to this Child alone….. But when he revealed it through his beloved Child and made known the things prepared from the beginning, he gave us everything at once, both to share in his benefits and to see and understand things which none of us ever would have expected.. So then, having already planned everything in his mind together with his child, he permitted us during the former time to be carried away by undisciplined impulses as we desired, led astray by pleasures and lusts, not at all because he took delight in our sins, but because he was patient; not because he approved of that former season of unrighteousness, but because he was creating the present season of righteousness, in order that we who in the former time were convicted by our own deeds as unworthy of life might now by the goodness of God be made worthy, and, having clearly demonstrated our inability to enter the kingdom of God on our own, might be enabled to do so by God’s power (Ep. to Diognetus 8:9-11 & 9:1)

Thus, man was, among other things, to learn the two great lessons of justice (i.e. what one deserves) and mercy (i.e. the giving of undeserved favor) inside this great cosmic plan. The Implications as to how the first covenant/law of moses (O.T. e.g. "justice") interfaces with the later covenant/law of Jesus (N.T. e.g. "mercy") is obvious and profound if man is an eternal being, learning eternal laws.

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS

Clear said:
POST TWO OF TWO

All of these conditions were planned for and set out, and existed in spiritual realms before the physical creation existed. Thus 2nd Clement was referring to this point when telling the earliest judeo-christians, that “… the Books and the Apostles declare that the church not only exists now, but has been in existence from the beginning. For she was spiritual, as was also our Jesus, but was revealed in the last days in order that she might save us. … For this flesh is a copy of the spirit. No one, therefore, who corrupts the copy will share in the original” (Note : the eternally existing organization...) (2nd Clement 14:3)

Thus Hermas in his early New Testament (sinaiticus) epistle spoke of the church in speaking to the angel about his vision : “Who do you think the elderly woman from whom you received the little book was?” I said : “The Sibyl.” “You are wrong,” he said. “She is not.” “Then who is she?” I said. “The Church” he replied. I said to him “Why, then, is she elderly?” “Because,” he said, “she was created before all things; therefore she is elderly, and for her sake the world was formed.” (Hermas 8:1)

Just as a building exists "spiritually" in a detailed blue-print before it exists "physically" (i.e. is "created", the “Church” as an Εκκλεσια (the assembly of those who are invited, summoned or “called out” ‘εκ-καλεο’ of a larger group) also existed from the early stages in this plan long before it existed physically after physical creation. Thus the prophet Enoch says that “1st There is no such thing as non-existence before him. (Even) before the world was created, he knows what is forever and what will be from generation to generation…”Enoch 39:11

Thus, in early judeo-christian texts, it is clear that the great plan of the Almighty God (the Father) dealt with all details and contingencies from before birth, to earthly conditions and to death and on to the judgment of mankind. ALL details and conditions of this plan were set down beforehand. Thus the prophet Enoch taught his children : “For I am swearing to you, my children, that before any person existed, a place of judgment was prepared for him, and the scale and the weight by means of which a person will be tested were prepared there ahead of the time….” (2nd Enoch mp 49:2)

In this context, the plan, including the creation of mortality with it's conditions as well as a manner of judgment was prepared ahead of time, rather than the judgment being "pre-destined" or "pre-determined".

The patriarch Napthali tells his sons that a plan for a Judgment exists, still, God knows from his προγνοσιςor foreknowledge of the nature of the individual spirits of mankind, how they will choose with faced with moral and social choices they will experience in their mortal lives, “For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body. And from one to the other there is no discrepancy, not so much as a third of a hair, for all the creation of the Most High was according to height, measure, and standard (i.e. the “boundaries, limits and conditions we are speaking of…) And just as the potter knows the use of each vessel and to what it is suited, so also the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. For there is no form or conception which the Lord does not know since he created every human being according to his own image. Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5;

[...]

In any case Kilk, I hope you have a wonderful journey during this life and in determining what it is you are going to believe in this life.

Clear
ειφιφυω

Wow, this is a lot of information to process! I hope Calvinists will join this thread and participate in the discussion. Would you agree with my interpretation of the potter imagery from Romans 9:19-24?

Clear · Apr 12, 2019

POST ONE OF TWO

Kilk1 said:
Wow, this is a lot of information to process! I hope Calvinists will join this thread and participate in the discussion. Would you agree with my interpretation of the potter imagery from Romans 9:19-24?

Kilk1 Asked : “Would you agree with my interpretation of the potter imagery from Romans 9:19-24?”

Hi Kilk1

I very much like your insightful description of the potter imagery and its potential implications. Modern Christianity may use the potter and the pot metaphor without considering the early Christian context that the clay existed in some form before the process of final formation.

For example, early Christian texts describe the existence of spirits of mankind existing prior to their being born into mortality inside the context that THAT estate and conditions THERE, affect our lives in THIS mortal estate and in context of what can be expected of us in mortality. God, as the potter, knows the potential of the claim. For example, Napthali, referring to the pre-mortal spirit, tells his sons :

“For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body. And from one to the other there is no discrepancy, not so much as a third of a hair, for all the creation of the Most High was according to height, measure, and standard. And just as the potter knows the use of each vessel and to what it is suited, so also the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. For there is no form or conception which the Lord does not know since he created every human being according to his own image. Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5;

The concept that Mortality is part of the “kiln” where our decisions and God help “form us” into what we can be and thus, having gone through the “fire” of the kiln of experience and mortality, we come out the other end as much a more refined product. Thus it was written in 2 Clement : “So then, while we are yet on earth, let us repent. For we are clay in the Craftsman’s hand. For example : if while a potter is making a vessel, if it becomes misshapen or breaks in his hands, he simply reshapes it; but if he has already put it into the kiln, he is no longer able to repair it. So it is with us: as long as we are in this world, let us repent with our whole heart of the evil things which we have done in the flesh, in order that we may be saved by the Lord while we still have time for repentance. For after we have departed from the world, we are no longer able there either to confess or to repent anymore..” 71: 2 Clement 8:1-4;

Similar sentiments exist outside of the specific metaphor of the potters pot. : “7 While we still have time to be healed, let us place ourselves in the hands of God the Physician, and pay him what is due. 8 What is that? Sincere, heart-felt repentance. 9 For he is the one who knows everything beforehand, and knows what is in our heart. ” 2nd Clement 9:7-8;

These similar sentiments exist in much of the early literature and the concept of “foreknowledge” and “pre-ordination” are a much more rational and logical model in early Christian literature than the later theories of “pre-destination”. Thus it is that in early Judeo-Christian textual descriptions, it is God’s forknowledge that allows him to know the end result for an individual, rather than that he has “pre-destined” an end result for an individual.

GOD’S FOREKNOWLEDGE / OMNISCIENCE REGARDING THESE SPIRITS :

God knew that many of these spirits of mankind would choose evil and he knew which ones would choose evil. There is still a purpose to allowing the recalcitrant spirits the opportunity to experience mortality and the very moral and social choices which will prevent them from being rewarded. It is to give them the insight they need to understand justice and see that they are given what they deserved.

Baruch was taught by revelation that "It is true that man would not have understood my judgment if he had not received the law and if he were not instructed with understanding. But now, because he trespassed, having understanding, he will be punished because he has understanding. (The Apocalypse of Baruch (Baruch 2) 15:1)

Diognetus was illustrating this same point when he explained that “he [God] permitted us during the former time [mortality] to be carried away by undisciplined impulses as we desired, led astray by pleasures and lusts, not at all because he took delight in our sins, but because he was patient; not because he approved of that former season of unrighteousness, but because he was creating the present season of righteousness, in order that we who in the former time were convicted by our own deeds as unworthy of life might now by the goodness of God be made worthy, and, having clearly demonstrated our inability to enter the kingdom of God on our own, might be enabled to do so by God’s power (Ep. to Diognetus 8:9-11 & 9:1) In this plan, individuals were to learn JUSTICE first, and thus, have the cognitive capacity to understand why they were not rewarded and to understand that their lack of reward was just.

This early model assumed “προγνοσις” / PRO GNOSIS or “foreknowledge”, but not strict “predestination”.

This model of omniscience allowed God to show prophets the future as exampled in virtually all of the early judeo-christian ascension literature. For example, Abraham’s apocalypse describes the vision given the prophet Abraham when he sees those spirits of mankind who are not yet born but who are, because of their own choices and characteristics, going to be prepared for judgment and others who because of their characteristics, will be called his people.

In his vision Abraham says “…I looked beneath the firmament at my feet and I saw the likeness of heaven and the things that were therein. 3 And (I saw) there the earth and it’s fruit, and it’s moving things and it’s things that had souls, and it’s host of men and the impiety of their souls and their justification, and their pursuit of their works and the abyss and its torments and its lower depths and (the) perdition in it....6 And I saw there the garden of Eden and it’s fruits, and the source and the river flowing from it. And its trees and their flowering, making fruits, and I saw men doing justice in it, their food and their est. 7And I saw there a great crowd of men and women and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal. Ch 22 1 “And I said, “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this picture of creation?” 2 And he said to me, “This is my will with regard to what is in the council and it became good before my face. And then, afterward, I gave them a command by my word and they came into existence. Whatever I had decreed was to exist had already been outlined (“they outlined”) in this and all the previously created (things) you have seen “came to stand (“took position”) before me.” (note the “plan” and the context of “conditions and boundaries that had been “outlined” or planned…) 3 And I said, “O sovereign, mighty and eternal! Why are the people in this picture on this side and on that?” 4 And he said to me, “These who are on the left side are a multitude of tribes who existed previously...and through you. some (who have been) prepared for judgment and order (Slav. Ustrojenie, “ordering, being put in order; restoration”), others for revenge and perdition at the end of the age. 5 those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of the people with azazel; these are the ones I have prepared to be born of you and to be called my people (The Apocalypse of Abraham 21:1-7 and 22:1-5)

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS

Clear · Apr 12, 2019

POST TWO OF TWO

Such consistent early judeo-christian descriptions coordinate perfectly with the early jewish concept that it was God’s foreknowledge and NOT predestination that allowed God to see in advance what choices mankind would make. Thus the text tells us that “…God had not chosen them from ancient eternity.”, but it was NOT because HE chose to create a child to punish, but rather his foreknowledge allowed him to determine what choices they would make. Thus the text continues and clarifies : “… Before they were created, he knew what they would do. So He rejected the generations of old and turned away from the land until they were gone. He knows the times of appearance and the number and exact times of everything that has ever existed and ever will exist before it happens in the proper time, for all eternity. And in all of these times, He has arranged that there should be for Himself people called by name, …. He taught them through those anointed by the Holy Spirit, the seers of truth.” Dead Sea Scrolls (The Damascus Document 4Q) 6-13

Similarly, 4Q 180 says “Before they were born, He knew their thoughts ...” Dead Sea Scrolls (THE AGES OF THE WORLD 4Q180 frags. 39)

This judeo-christian model of God’s Foreknowledge did not merely extend to the great and grand principles of his plan for mankind, but to the nature and characteristics of spirits themselves. Just as God knew the spirits of those who would choose evil, God also knew the characteristics of those who would choose to live moral and social laws he was attempting to teach them. He knew the leaders as well as those who were not particularly gifted. Thus he could tell Jeremiah the prophet : “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” Jer 1:5

Jewish Haggadah confirms this pattern of foreknowledge without pre-destination in it’s description of spirits and familiarity with them and much of their life before birth, yet the moral choice and possible rewards are left up to the spirit (as indicated by the text highlighted in blue).

Thus the jewish text taught : “The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him. At that moment, God issues the command, “Enter this sperm.” The soul opens her mouth, and pleads: “O Lord of the world! I am well pleased with the world in which I have been living since the day on which you called me into being. Why do you now desire to have me enter this impure sperm, I who am holy and pure, and a part of your glory?” God consoles her: “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.” The soul is then forced to enter the sperm against her will, and the angel carries her back to the womb of the mother. ...In the morning an angel carries here to Paradise, and shows her the righteous, who sit there in their glory, with crown upon their heads. The Angel then says to the soul, “Do you know who these are?” She replies in the negative, and the angel goes on: “These whom you behold here were formed, like you, in the womb of their mother. When they came into the world, they observed God’s Torah and his commandments. Therefore they became the partakers of this bliss which you see them enjoy. Know, also, you will one day depart from the world below, and if you will observe God’s Torah, then will you be found worthy of sitting with these pious ones. But if not, you will be doomed to the other place.” ..... Between morning and evening the angel carries the soul around, and shows here where she will live and where she will die...and he takes her through the whole world, and points out the just and the sinner and all things. In the evening, he replaces her in the womb of the mother, and there she remains for nine months. When the time arrives for her to emerge from the womb into the open world, the same angel addresses the soul, “The time has come for you to go abroad into the open world.” ....” But the soul is reluctant to leave her place. Then the angel fillips the babe on the nose, extinguishes the light at his head, and brings him forth into the world against his will. Immediately the child forgets all his soul has seen and learnt, and he comes into the world crying, for he loses a place of shelter and security and rest.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man);

Such early texts tell us how the early Judeo-Christians themselves describe their beliefs and their interpretations regarding the spirit within individuals having free will and moral choice as they enter mortality.

I have to get back to work.

Good luck coming up with your own models as to what is happening inside mortality Kilk1.

Clear
ειακειω

Kilk1 · Apr 12, 2019

Clear said:
POST ONE OF TWO

Kilk1 Asked : “Would you agree with my interpretation of the potter imagery from Romans 9:19-24?”

Hi Kilk1

I very much like your insightful description of the potter imagery and its potential implications. Modern Christianity may use the potter and the pot metaphor without considering the early Christian context that the clay existed in some form before the process of final formation.

For example, early Christian texts describe the existence of spirits of mankind existing prior to their being born into mortality inside the context that THAT estate and conditions THERE, affect our lives in THIS mortal estate and in context of what can be expected of us in mortality. God, as the potter, knows the potential of the claim. For example, Napthali, referring to the pre-mortal spirit, tells his sons :

“For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body. And from one to the other there is no discrepancy, not so much as a third of a hair, for all the creation of the Most High was according to height, measure, and standard. And just as the potter knows the use of each vessel and to what it is suited, so also the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. For there is no form or conception which the Lord does not know since he created every human being according to his own image. Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5;

The concept that Mortality is part of the “kiln” where our decisions and God help “form us” into what we can be and thus, having gone through the “fire” of the kiln of experience and mortality, we come out the other end as much a more refined product. Thus it was written in 2 Clement : “So then, while we are yet on earth, let us repent. For we are clay in the Craftsman’s hand. For example : if while a potter is making a vessel, if it becomes misshapen or breaks in his hands, he simply reshapes it; but if he has already put it into the kiln, he is no longer able to repair it. So it is with us: as long as we are in this world, let us repent with our whole heart of the evil things which we have done in the flesh, in order that we may be saved by the Lord while we still have time for repentance. For after we have departed from the world, we are no longer able there either to confess or to repent anymore..” 71: 2 Clement 8:1-4;

Similar sentiments exist outside of the specific metaphor of the potters pot. : “7 While we still have time to be healed, let us place ourselves in the hands of God the Physician, and pay him what is due. 8 What is that? Sincere, heart-felt repentance. 9 For he is the one who knows everything beforehand, and knows what is in our heart. ” 2nd Clement 9:7-8;

These similar sentiments exist in much of the early literature and the concept of “foreknowledge” and “pre-ordination” are a much more rational and logical model in early Christian literature than the later theories of “pre-destination”. Thus it is that in early Judeo-Christian textual descriptions, it is God’s forknowledge that allows him to know the end result for an individual, rather than that he has “pre-destined” an end result for an individual.

GOD’S FOREKNOWLEDGE / OMNISCIENCE REGARDING THESE SPIRITS :

God knew that many of these spirits of mankind would choose evil and he knew which ones would choose evil. There is still a purpose to allowing the recalcitrant spirits the opportunity to experience mortality and the very moral and social choices which will prevent them from being rewarded. It is to give them the insight they need to understand justice and see that they are given what they deserved.

Baruch was taught by revelation that "It is true that man would not have understood my judgment if he had not received the law and if he were not instructed with understanding. But now, because he trespassed, having understanding, he will be punished because he has understanding. (The Apocalypse of Baruch (Baruch 2) 15:1)

Diognetus was illustrating this same point when he explained that “he [God] permitted us during the former time [mortality] to be carried away by undisciplined impulses as we desired, led astray by pleasures and lusts, not at all because he took delight in our sins, but because he was patient; not because he approved of that former season of unrighteousness, but because he was creating the present season of righteousness, in order that we who in the former time were convicted by our own deeds as unworthy of life might now by the goodness of God be made worthy, and, having clearly demonstrated our inability to enter the kingdom of God on our own, might be enabled to do so by God’s power (Ep. to Diognetus 8:9-11 & 9:1) In this plan, individuals were to learn JUSTICE first, and thus, have the cognitive capacity to understand why they were not rewarded and to understand that their lack of reward was just.

This early model assumed “προγνοσις” / PRO GNOSIS or “foreknowledge”, but not strict “predestination”.

This model of omniscience allowed God to show prophets the future as exampled in virtually all of the early judeo-christian ascension literature. For example, Abraham’s apocalypse describes the vision given the prophet Abraham when he sees those spirits of mankind who are not yet born but who are, because of their own choices and characteristics, going to be prepared for judgment and others who because of their characteristics, will be called his people

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS

Clear said:
POST TWO OF TWO

Such consistent early judeo-christian descriptions coordinate perfectly with the early jewish concept that it was God’s foreknowledge and NOT predestination that allowed God to see in advance what choices mankind would make. Thus the text tells us that “…God had not chosen them from ancient eternity.”, but it was NOT because HE chose to create a child to punish, but rather his foreknowledge allowed him to determine what choices they would make. Thus the text continues and clarifies : “… Before they were created, he knew what they would do. So He rejected the generations of old and turned away from the land until they were gone. He knows the times of appearance and the number and exact times of everything that has ever existed and ever will exist before it happens in the proper time, for all eternity. And in all of these times, He has arranged that there should be for Himself people called by name, …. He taught them through those anointed by the Holy Spirit, the seers of truth.” Dead Sea Scrolls (The Damascus Document 4Q) 6-13

Similarly, 4Q 180 says “Before they were born, He knew their thoughts ...” Dead Sea Scrolls (THE AGES OF THE WORLD 4Q180 frags. 39)

This judeo-christian model of God’s Foreknowledge did not merely extend to the great and grand principles of his plan for mankind, but to the nature and characteristics of spirits themselves. Just as God knew the spirits of those who would choose evil, God also knew the characteristics of those who would choose to live moral and social laws he was attempting to teach them. He knew the leaders as well as those who were not particularly gifted. Thus he could tell Jeremiah the prophet : “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” Jer 1:5

Jewish Haggadah confirms this pattern of foreknowledge without pre-destination in it’s description of spirits and familiarity with them and much of their life before birth, yet the moral choice and possible rewards are left up to the spirit (as indicated by the text highlighted in blue).
...

Such early texts tell us how the early Judeo-Christians themselves describe their beliefs and their interpretations regarding the spirit within individuals having free will and moral choice as they enter mortality.

I have to get back to work.

Good luck coming up with your own models as to what is happening inside mortality Kilk1.

Clear
ειακειω

Thanks for the reply! Although the sources you gave aren't the Scriptures themselves, it definitely can be useful to examine the writings of Jews and Christians around the time of the Bible. It appears that wherever potter imagery is used in relation to free will, it supports it by suggesting we can change. That reference to 2 Clement suggests such, for example, and an additional reference from the Bible (in addition to Jeremiah 18:1-10) is 2 Timothy 2:20-21: "But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work" (NKJV, emphasis added).

What would you say about the fact that God "had prepared beforehand for glory" the vessels of mercy (Romans 9:23), suggesting we've already been prepared? Does this suggest, as a Calvinist may argue, that we don't have free will but are prepared beforehand to be good or bad? I'm not saying this is true but just wondering what your perspective is. Again, thanks!

Clear · Apr 16, 2019

POST ONE OF TWO

“Thanks for the reply! Although the sources you gave aren't the Scriptures themselves, it definitely can be useful to examine the writings of Jews and Christians around the time of the Bible. It appears that wherever potter imagery is used in relation to free will, it supports it by suggesting we can change.” (Kilk1, post #14)

1) THE VALUE OF EARLY CHRISTIAN TEXTUAL DESCRIPTIONS OF EARLY RELIGION

Hi Kilk1. The advantage of the early JudeoChristian texts is that they describe early JudeoChristian doctrines and practices by the early JudeoChristians themselves, in their own words. It is one of the best ways to determine historically, the most authentic version of early Christian worldviews as opposed to the many theories created by later Christian movements.

What would you say about the fact that God "had prepared beforehand for glory" the vessels of mercy (Romans 9:23), suggesting we've already been prepared? Does this suggest, as a Calvinist may argue, that we don't have free will but are prepared beforehand to be good or bad? I'm not saying this is true but just wondering what your perspective is. Again, thanks! (Kilk1, post #49)

Kilk1, I am not sure how (specifically) you are interpreting “the vessels of mercy” (Σκευη ελεους) nor what you think it means but I would like to address the principle that spirits of mankind do undergo a preparation before this life as part of their tutoring of which mortality is an integral part.

2) THE EARLY CONCEPT OF FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD AND PRE-EXISTENCE OF SPIRITS

Actually the Jewish and Christian text show that both groups held to this doctrine and had deep and detailed traditions concerning both pre-mortal existence of spirits and events that occurred during this time period. I believe that the doctrine of pre-mortal existence became less popular as one approached the third century. However, it was easily the most common worldview in the earliest judeo-christian texts.

MULTIPLE JUDAO-CHRISTIAN TEXTS DESCRIBE PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE AND IT’S RELATIONSHIP TO PRESENT CONDITIONS

Many, many of the earliest Judao-Christian sacred Texts, relate the expansive doctrine of the pre-mortal realm and the nature of spirits there and God’s purposes for creation. The theme of pre-creation and what happened there is written into the early sacred texts, their hymns contain the doctrine; virtually ALL of the ascension literature contains the doctrine, the war in heaven texts certainly contain the doctrine; the earliest liturgies contain the doctrine; the midrashic texts contain the doctrine, the Jewish Haggadah contains the doctrine, the Zohar contains it; the testament literature is full of it. One simply cannot READ the earliest sacred Judao-Christian texts without reference to this early Christian doctrine. This vast early literature is part of the context for early christians and illuminates their understanding of biblical texts that reference this pre-creation time period and what happened there. For examples :

Enoch, in his vision of pre-creation heaven, relates seeing the spirits that have populated and will populate the earth during it’s existence : ”... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1st Enoch 40:1)

The great scribe Enoch is commanded by the angel to : “... write all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. 5 For all souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.” (2nd Enoch 23:4-5) The concept that ALL souls were to be prepared for eternity is the base concept. This does not mean that ALL souls (spirits) of men will choose righteousness when in mortality. Simply that they were given choice.

The concept that God KNEW beforehand that many would not choose righteousness did not mean that he created them to chose evil. For example, The vast ascension literature, describes the pre-creation realm of spirits. Abraham, in his ascension Vision describes the unnumbered spirits he sees, many of whom are waiting to come into mortality and some, it is already known, will chose evil. The angel explains to Abraham what Abram is seeing in his vision : “Look now beneath your feet at the firmament and understand the creation that was depicted of old (i.e. planned). Among other things Abraham says “I saw there a great crowd of men and women and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal.”... He asks : “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this picture of creation?” 2 And he said to me, “This is my will with regard to what is in the council and it became good before my face (i.e. according to his plan).. “These who are on the left side are a multitude of tribes who existed previously...and through you. some (who have been) prepared for being put in their order (slav” restoration”), others for revenge and perdition at the end of the age....those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of the people with Azazel [the devil]…..; [but] these are the ones I have prepared to be born of you and to be called my people (The Apocalypse of Abraham 21:1-7 and 22:1-5 and 23:1-3)

The doctrine of pre-mortal existence of the spirits within men permeates the biblical text as well. A knowledge of this simple principle explains and underlying so many of the quotes in many other texts as well. In the Old testament it was said : “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (ecclesiates 12:7). This principle is mirrored in multiple other early Judao Christian texts as well : When God the Father commands the son to “Go, take the soul of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.” The only begotten Son said to Sedrach, “give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5).

When the Son finally DOES take the Soul of the Mortal Sedrach, he simply takes it back to God “where it came from”. God’s statement to the prophet Sedrach is simply a rephrase of what God said in Old Testament Ecclesiastes 12:7...” and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” This principle is repeated in this same ancient usage in many of the ancient sacred texts from the earliest periods.

“Jesus said, “Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return.” (THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS v 49)

“Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4)

The Early Christian usage of Ecclesiates 12:7 was used in this same way by the Apostle Peter as he explained to Clement that "This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light." (Recognitions)

In this same ancient context, the question God asked Job; “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?”; was NOT simply rhetorical, but it was a REMINDER :

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7)

In this early Judao-Christian context, Job KNEW the answer when God asked where Job was when God laid the foundations of the earth “and all the sons of God shouted for joy”. The texts are explicit that the spirits were taught regarding God’s plan to send the spirits of men to earth. They knew they would undergo a fall of Adam and Of the pre-mortal Redeemer. The savior describes this period of time to the ancient Prophet Seth when sons of God shouted for Joy. The redeemer said regarding this time period before creation in a assembly of jubilant spirits :
“And I said these things to the whole multitude of the multitudinous assembly of the rejoicing Majesty. The whole house of the Father of Truth rejoiced that I am the one who is from them.... And they all had a single mind, since it is out of one. They charged me since I was willing. I came forth to reveal the glory to my kindred and my fellow spirits.” (The second treatise of the Great Seth)

In explaining the relationship the pre-mortal realm of spirits, to the current time when individuals do as they please, unhampered (as it were), by a remembrance of pre-mortal relationships, the messiah remarked :
“After we went forth from our home, and came down to this world, and came into being in the world in bodies, we were hated and persecuted, not only by those who are ignorant, but also by those who think that they are advancing the name of Christ, since they were unknowingly empty, not knowing who they are, like dumb animals. They persecuted those who have been liberated by me, since they hate them...” (The second treatise of the Great Seth)

The early Christian doctrine of Pre-mortal existence removed arbitrariness out of the accusation that God himself created spirits unequally (which is inherent in the theory of pre-destination). IN this earlier, ancient model, the spirits are partly responsible for their own nature upon entering this life. Instead of arbitrarily creating spirits with defects (the very defects for which spirits may be punished for later), in this early christian context, the Lord creates the body in relationship to certain characteristics the spirit has already obtained (or did not obtain) in it’s heavenly abode over vast periods of time. For example, Napthali explains this to his sons from the testament literature :

“For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit,” and, because the Lord knows and has known the spirit over eons, “ the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. For there is no form or conception which the Lord does not know since he created every human being according to his own image.” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5)

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS

Clear · Apr 16, 2019

POST TWO OF TWO

In the context of the spirit of man existing long before other spirits, the Jewish Haggadah relates that “Instead of being the last, man is really the first work of creation...With the soul of Adam the souls of all the generations of men were created. They are stored up in a promptuary, in the seventh of the heavens, whence they are drawn as they are needed for human body after human body.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)

This it the very same teaching the Apostle Peter taught the Christian convert Clement. The Apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and man’s place within this plan : "which (plan) He [God the Father] of his own good pleasure announced in the presence of all the first angels which were assembled before Him. Last of all He made man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created." (Recognitions)

The principle that man’s spirit pre-exists the creation was one of the FIRST things the Apostle Peter teaches Clement. I believe there is a reason the Apostle Peter taught the principle of Pre-Existence to Clement at an early stage in Clements conversion to Christianity. Perhaps, for such theists, the key to understanding what God is doing with mankind is contained inside of the concept that we are eternally spiritual.

Many early Judao-Christian texts are quite explicit in explaining the doctrines underlying the New Testament Theology on this subject. For example : Speaking of the souls of men and the manner after which they are sent from their heavenly dwelling place to earth, the Haggadah relates :
“The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him.”

Occasionally the spirit is reluctant to leave the untainted pre-mortal heaven for an earth where she knows her existence will be more difficult as she gains her moral education by coming to earth. In such accounts, God is NOT angry but the text says “ God consoles her. The text relates God telling the soul that “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.”

The entire chapter regarding the soul of man discussed in detail what happens with spirits before they enter the body and it relates their forgetting of their prior preparation and existence with God. (I might mention that souls anciently are all described in the female gender - like ships are - in modern parlance)

Such principles in the Haggadic text (which is related to the talmudic history) is mirrored in several other texts. For example, the Zohar confirms the doctrine as it relates essentially the same description. :
“At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this and this place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” Then the soul, realizing it could not disobey, would unwillingly descend and come into this world. (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)

In very symbolic language, the Zohar relates the creation of the souls in heaven to the point that they become formed and cognizant and take on characteristics they will keep with them when they are placed into bodies at birth, even to the point of having gender. Speaking of these fully developed souls it says : “the soul of the female and the soul of the male, are hence preeminent above all the heavenly hosts and camps.” The question in the sacred text is then asked : It may be wondered, if they [the souls] are thus preeminent on both sides, why do they descend to this world only to be taken thence at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day. (THE ZOHAR)

Again, I have to stop somewhere. The point is, that spirits existed before they were born in this early Judeo-Christian worldview. They were given moral preparation as part of the plan of God for their advancement and tutoring (as a preparation to live in a social heaven). God knew before they were born, their characteristics and how they would choose. The fact that he had FORE-KNOWLEDGE of their characteristics, does not mean he PRE-DESTINED their characteristics.

Good luck in coming to your own models as to what is going on in this life. As for me, I honestly think the earlier and more authentic ancient Christian theology is more rational and more logical than the later theories and models created by later Christian movements.

Clear
τωδρφιω
End post two of two

Clear · Apr 17, 2019

Kilk1 said:
Thanks for the reply! Although the sources you gave aren't the Scriptures themselves, it definitely can be useful to examine the writings of Jews and Christians around the time of the Bible. It appears that wherever potter imagery is used in relation to free will, it supports it by suggesting we can change. That reference to 2 Clement suggests such, for example, and an additional reference from the Bible (in addition to Jeremiah 18:1-10) is 2 Timothy 2:20-21: "But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work" (NKJV, emphasis added).

What would you say about the fact that God "had prepared beforehand for glory" the vessels of mercy (Romans 9:23), suggesting we've already been prepared? Does this suggest, as a Calvinist may argue, that we don't have free will but are prepared beforehand to be good or bad? I'm not saying this is true but just wondering what your perspective is. Again, thanks!

Hi Kilk1, I actually answered your posted quote in posts #14 and 16, but I felt that it was somewhat compulsive to include so much information in posts #14 and #16. I thought I would simply sum up the principle of FOREKNOWLEDGE as described in early Judeo-Christian literature as opposed to the later theory of Pre-destination found in the later Christian movements. You can read #14 and #16 if you want more information and context.

1) In the pre-mortal existence, God could see that some spirits would choose evil and others would choose Good. (He did not create the spirit pre-destined to choose either one.)
“At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world.” The Zohar

2) Inside Mortality, God was able to reveal this same principle to prophets, thus, predicting the future with accuracy. This did not create the choice nor the future, it simply represents foreknowledge of what would happen.
“...for what I command them will not be to their liking, all the days that they live on the land. Indeed I declare to you that they will abandon me and choose to follow the idols of the gentiles and their abominations and their filthy deeds, and they will worship the false gods, which will become a trap and snare, and they will violate every sacred assembly and covenant Sabbath the very ones I am commanding them today to observe. DEAD SEA SCROLL 1Q22 Col. 1:6-9

3) Thus it was taught that individuals are given light and knowledge and they choose for themselves.
“And now, my children, you have heard everything. Choose for yourselves light or darkness, the Law of the Lord or the works of Beliar.” Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs- Levi ch 18 & 19:1;

Good journey Kilk1

Clear
τωφιτζω

Kilk1 · Apr 22, 2019

Clear said:
POST ONE OF TWO

“Thanks for the reply! Although the sources you gave aren't the Scriptures themselves, it definitely can be useful to examine the writings of Jews and Christians around the time of the Bible. It appears that wherever potter imagery is used in relation to free will, it supports it by suggesting we can change.” (Kilk1, post #14)

1) THE VALUE OF EARLY CHRISTIAN TEXTUAL DESCRIPTIONS OF EARLY RELIGION

Hi Kilk1. The advantage of the early JudeoChristian texts is that they describe early JudeoChristian doctrines and practices by the early JudeoChristians themselves, in their own words. It is one of the best ways to determine historically, the most authentic version of early Christian worldviews as opposed to the many theories created by later Christian movements.

What would you say about the fact that God "had prepared beforehand for glory" the vessels of mercy (Romans 9:23), suggesting we've already been prepared? Does this suggest, as a Calvinist may argue, that we don't have free will but are prepared beforehand to be good or bad? I'm not saying this is true but just wondering what your perspective is. Again, thanks! (Kilk1, post #49)

Kilk1, I am not sure how (specifically) you are interpreting “the vessels of mercy” (Σκευη ελεους) nor what you think it means but I would like to address the principle that spirits of mankind do undergo a preparation before this life as part of their tutoring of which mortality is an integral part.

2) THE EARLY CONCEPT OF FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD AND PRE-EXISTENCE OF SPIRITS

Actually the Jewish and Christian text show that both groups held to this doctrine and had deep and detailed traditions concerning both pre-mortal existence of spirits and events that occurred during this time period. I believe that the doctrine of pre-mortal existence became less popular as one approached the third century. However, it was easily the most common worldview in the earliest judeo-christian texts.

MULTIPLE JUDAO-CHRISTIAN TEXTS DESCRIBE PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE AND IT’S RELATIONSHIP TO PRESENT CONDITIONS

Many, many of the earliest Judao-Christian sacred Texts, relate the expansive doctrine of the pre-mortal realm and the nature of spirits there and God’s purposes for creation. The theme of pre-creation and what happened there is written into the early sacred texts, their hymns contain the doctrine; virtually ALL of the ascension literature contains the doctrine, the war in heaven texts certainly contain the doctrine; the earliest liturgies contain the doctrine; the midrashic texts contain the doctrine, the Jewish Haggadah contains the doctrine, the Zohar contains it; the testament literature is full of it. One simply cannot READ the earliest sacred Judao-Christian texts without reference to this early Christian doctrine. This vast early literature is part of the context for early christians and illuminates their understanding of biblical texts that reference this pre-creation time period and what happened there. For examples :

Enoch, in his vision of pre-creation heaven, relates seeing the spirits that have populated and will populate the earth during it’s existence : ”... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1st Enoch 40:1)
[...]

The early Christian doctrine of Pre-mortal existence removed arbitrariness out of the accusation that God himself created spirits unequally (which is inherent in the theory of pre-destination). IN this earlier, ancient model, the spirits are partly responsible for their own nature upon entering this life. Instead of arbitrarily creating spirits with defects (the very defects for which spirits may be punished for later), in this early christian context, the Lord creates the body in relationship to certain characteristics the spirit has already obtained (or did not obtain) in it’s heavenly abode over vast periods of time. For example, Napthali explains this to his sons from the testament literature :

“For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit,” and, because the Lord knows and has known the spirit over eons, “ the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. For there is no form or conception which the Lord does not know since he created every human being according to his own image.” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5)

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS

Clear said:
POST TWO OF TWO

In the context of the spirit of man existing long before other spirits, the Jewish Haggadah relates that “Instead of being the last, man is really the first work of creation...With the soul of Adam the souls of all the generations of men were created. They are stored up in a promptuary, in the seventh of the heavens, whence they are drawn as they are needed for human body after human body.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)

This it the very same teaching the Apostle Peter taught the Christian convert Clement. The Apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and man’s place within this plan : "which (plan) He [God the Father] of his own good pleasure announced in the presence of all the first angels which were assembled before Him. Last of all He made man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created." (Recognitions)

The principle that man’s spirit pre-exists the creation was one of the FIRST things the Apostle Peter teaches Clement. I believe there is a reason the Apostle Peter taught the principle of Pre-Existence to Clement at an early stage in Clements conversion to Christianity. Perhaps, for such theists, the key to understanding what God is doing with mankind is contained inside of the concept that we are eternally spiritual.

[...]

In very symbolic language, the Zohar relates the creation of the souls in heaven to the point that they become formed and cognizant and take on characteristics they will keep with them when they are placed into bodies at birth, even to the point of having gender. Speaking of these fully developed souls it says : “the soul of the female and the soul of the male, are hence preeminent above all the heavenly hosts and camps.” The question in the sacred text is then asked : It may be wondered, if they [the souls] are thus preeminent on both sides, why do they descend to this world only to be taken thence at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day. (THE ZOHAR)

Again, I have to stop somewhere. The point is, that spirits existed before they were born in this early Judeo-Christian worldview. They were given moral preparation as part of the plan of God for their advancement and tutoring (as a preparation to live in a social heaven). God knew before they were born, their characteristics and how they would choose. The fact that he had FORE-KNOWLEDGE of their characteristics, does not mean he PRE-DESTINED their characteristics.

Good luck in coming to your own models as to what is going on in this life. As for me, I honestly think the earlier and more authentic ancient Christian theology is more rational and more logical than the later theories and models created by later Christian movements.

Clear
τωδρφιω
End post two of two

Clear said:
Hi Kilk1, I actually answered your posted quote in posts #14 and 16, but I felt that it was somewhat compulsive to include so much information in posts #14 and #16. I thought I would simply sum up the principle of FOREKNOWLEDGE as described in early Judeo-Christian literature as opposed to the later theory of Pre-destination found in the later Christian movements. You can read #14 and #16 if you want more information and context.

1) In the pre-mortal existence, God could see that some spirits would choose evil and others would choose Good. (He did not create the spirit pre-destined to choose either one.)
“At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world.” The Zohar

2) Inside Mortality, God was able to reveal this same principle to prophets, thus, predicting the future with accuracy. This did not create the choice nor the future, it simply represents foreknowledge of what would happen.
“...for what I command them will not be to their liking, all the days that they live on the land. Indeed I declare to you that they will abandon me and choose to follow the idols of the gentiles and their abominations and their filthy deeds, and they will worship the false gods, which will become a trap and snare, and they will violate every sacred assembly and covenant Sabbath the very ones I am commanding them today to observe. DEAD SEA SCROLL 1Q22 Col. 1:6-9

3) Thus it was taught that individuals are given light and knowledge and they choose for themselves.
“And now, my children, you have heard everything. Choose for yourselves light or darkness, the Law of the Lord or the works of Beliar.” Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs- Levi ch 18 & 19:1;

Good journey Kilk1

Clear
τωφιτζω

Sorry for taking so long to get back with you. Are there passages from the Bible to corroborate the view that our spirits existed before creation?

Duke_Leto · Apr 22, 2019

Ellen Brown said:
I don't know if I was chosen or if I chose. These days I am all alone, free of most distractions. Perhaps my family deserting me is actually a blessing? I do know with deep certainty that the Creator is ever before my eyes, and my focus is on knowing and pleasing him. According to Solomon, the rest is all vanity.

How do you know and please God, if you don't mind my asking?

Ellen Brown · Apr 22, 2019

Duke_Leto said:
How do you know and please God, if you don't mind my asking?

In my 'opinion', and that is all I have, Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

This is key in my opinion. Many interpret God as mean, scripture as confining, because they have been influenced to think God is mean, or are themselves mean. The ability to forgive others is important because God will practice the same forgiveness with us that we give to others. Perhaps the idea that religion must be complicated and demanding is a tool of the adversary?

Can Calvinism survive Romans 9‽

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