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“Thanks for the reply! Although the sources you gave aren't the Scriptures themselves, it definitely can be useful to examine the writings of Jews and Christians around the time of the Bible. It appears that wherever potter imagery is used in relation to free will, it supports it by suggesting we can change.” (Kilk1, post #14)
1) THE VALUE OF EARLY CHRISTIAN TEXTUAL DESCRIPTIONS OF EARLY RELIGION
Hi
Kilk1. The advantage of the early JudeoChristian texts is that they describe early JudeoChristian doctrines and practices by the early JudeoChristians themselves, in their own words. It is one of the best ways to determine historically, the most authentic version of early Christian worldviews as opposed to the many theories created by later Christian movements.
What would you say about the fact that God "had prepared beforehand for glory" the vessels of mercy (Romans 9:23), suggesting we've already been prepared? Does this suggest, as a Calvinist may argue, that we don't have free will but are prepared beforehand to be good or bad? I'm not saying this is true but just wondering what your perspective is. Again, thanks! (Kilk1, post #49)
Kilk1, I am not sure how (specifically) you are interpreting “
the vessels of mercy” (Σκευη ελεους) nor what you think it means but I would like to address the principle that spirits of mankind do undergo a preparation before this life as part of their tutoring of which mortality is an integral part.
2) THE EARLY CONCEPT OF FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD AND PRE-EXISTENCE OF SPIRITS
Actually the Jewish and Christian text show that both groups held to this doctrine and had deep and detailed traditions concerning both pre-mortal existence of spirits and events that occurred during this time period. I believe that the doctrine of pre-mortal existence became less popular as one approached the third century. However, it was easily the most common worldview in the earliest judeo-christian texts.
MULTIPLE JUDAO-CHRISTIAN TEXTS DESCRIBE PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE AND IT’S RELATIONSHIP TO PRESENT CONDITIONS
Many, many of the earliest Judao-Christian sacred Texts, relate the expansive doctrine of the pre-mortal realm and the nature of spirits there and God’s purposes for creation. The theme of pre-creation and what happened there is written into the early sacred texts, their hymns contain the doctrine; virtually ALL of the ascension literature contains the doctrine, the war in heaven texts certainly contain the doctrine; the earliest liturgies contain the doctrine; the midrashic texts contain the doctrine, the Jewish Haggadah contains the doctrine, the Zohar contains it; the testament literature is full of it. One simply cannot READ the earliest sacred Judao-Christian texts without reference to this early Christian doctrine. This vast early literature is part of the context for early christians and illuminates their understanding of biblical texts that reference this pre-creation time period and what happened there. For examples :
Enoch, in his vision of pre-creation heaven, relates seeing the spirits that have populated and will populate the earth during it’s existence :
”... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1st Enoch 40:1)
The great scribe Enoch is commanded by the angel to :
“... write all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. 5 For all souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.” (2nd Enoch 23:4-5) The concept that ALL souls were to be prepared for eternity is the base concept. This does not mean that ALL souls (spirits) of men will choose righteousness when in mortality. Simply that they were given choice.
The concept that God KNEW beforehand that many would not choose righteousness did not mean that he created them to chose evil. For example, The vast ascension literature, describes the pre-creation realm of spirits. Abraham, in his ascension Vision describes the unnumbered spirits he sees, many of whom are waiting to come into mortality and some, it is already known, will chose evil. The angel explains to Abraham what Abram is seeing in his vision :
“Look now beneath your feet at the firmament and understand the creation that was depicted of old (i.e. planned). Among other things Abraham says “I saw there a great crowd of men and women and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal.”... He asks : “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this picture of creation?” 2 And he said to me, “This is my will with regard to what is in the council and it became good before my face (i.e. according to his plan).. “These who are on the left side are a multitude of tribes who existed previously...and through you. some (who have been) prepared for being put in their order (slav” restoration”), others for revenge and perdition at the end of the age....those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of the people with Azazel [the devil]…..; [but] these are the ones I have prepared to be born of you and to be called my people (The Apocalypse of Abraham 21:1-7 and 22:1-5 and 23:1-3)
The doctrine of pre-mortal existence of the spirits within men permeates the biblical text as well. A knowledge of this simple principle explains and underlying so many of the quotes in many other texts as well. In the Old testament it was said :
“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (ecclesiates 12:7). This principle is mirrored in multiple other early Judao Christian texts as well : When God the Father commands the son to
“Go, take the soul of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.” The only begotten Son said to Sedrach, “give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5).
When the Son finally DOES take the Soul of the Mortal Sedrach, he simply takes it back to God
“where it came from”. God’s statement to the prophet Sedrach is simply a rephrase of what God said in Old Testament Ecclesiastes 12:7..
.” and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” This principle is repeated in this same ancient usage in many of the ancient sacred texts from the earliest periods.
“Jesus said
, “Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return.” (THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS v 49)
“Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4)
The Early Christian usage of Ecclesiates 12:7 was used in this same way by the Apostle Peter as he explained to Clement that
"This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light." (Recognitions)
In this same ancient context, the question God asked Job;
“Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?”; was NOT simply rhetorical, but it was a
REMINDER :
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7)
In this early Judao-Christian context, Job KNEW the answer when God asked where Job was when God laid the foundations of the earth
“and all the sons of God shouted for joy”. The texts are explicit that the spirits were taught regarding God’s plan to send the spirits of men to earth. They knew they would undergo a fall of Adam and Of the pre-mortal Redeemer. The savior describes this period of time to the ancient Prophet Seth when sons of God shouted for Joy. The redeemer said regarding this time period before creation in a assembly of jubilant spirits :
“And I said these things to the whole multitude of the multitudinous assembly of the rejoicing Majesty. The whole house of the Father of Truth rejoiced that I am the one who is from them.... And they all had a single mind, since it is out of one. They charged me since I was willing. I came forth to reveal the glory to my kindred and my fellow spirits.” (The second treatise of the Great Seth)
In explaining the relationship the pre-mortal realm of spirits, to the current time when individuals do as they please, unhampered (as it were), by a remembrance of pre-mortal relationships, the messiah remarked :
“After we went forth from our home, and came down to this world, and came into being in the world in bodies, we were hated and persecuted, not only by those who are ignorant, but also by those who think that they are advancing the name of Christ, since they were unknowingly empty, not knowing who they are, like dumb animals. They persecuted those who have been liberated by me, since they hate them...” (The second treatise of the Great Seth)
The early Christian doctrine of Pre-mortal existence removed arbitrariness out of the accusation that God himself created spirits unequally (which is inherent in the theory of pre-destination). IN this earlier, ancient model, the spirits are partly responsible for their own nature upon entering this life. Instead of arbitrarily creating spirits with defects (the very defects for which spirits may be punished for later), in this early christian context, the Lord creates the body in relationship to certain characteristics the spirit has already obtained (or did not obtain) in it’s heavenly abode over vast periods of time. For example, Napthali explains this to his sons from the testament literature :
“For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit,” and, because the Lord knows and has known the spirit over eons, “ the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. For there is no form or conception which the Lord does not know since he created every human being according to his own image.” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5)
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