Perhaps. From what I can see on the internet the whole question looks like one of those rabbit holes the Shi'ite critics have pursued. Islamic theology is a work in progress for me and I would want to research it properly before commenting.
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Sure. You can believe you proved it!Well then it is false. We already proved that with respect to the central biblical teaching of propitiatory atonement - it simply is not there in Iqan.
I am not sure how proper interpreting the Quran, Bible and expressions such as Rebirth which is from previous scriptures is any different than referring to scriptures of the past. Interpreting requires referring to scriptures expressions and verse!Again, a bold, sweeping statement with no supporting evidence. He did not refer to 'past scriptures' and explain them, he reinterpreted the Qur'an.
Perhaps. From what I can see on the internet the whole question looks like one of those rabbit holes the Shi'ite critics have pursued. Islamic theology is a work in progress for me and I would want to research it properly before commenting.
Its a quotation Tony - Baha'u'llah was explicitly quoting from "the Bihar" - he says so in the immediately previous paragraph.The way I see it, the Katab-i-iqan covers all past religious truths. Is that not the aim of the OP for us to consider and discover?
Thus it is not restricted to one source. The point of this verse is that there are many spiritual and other meanings within each passage of the religuous texts.
Another thing is that I see that they also traverse many worlds, not just this material world.
Regards Tony
I fail to see what that has to do with it. The two key issues that have been raised in this thread are that the Iqan claims to contain "all scripture" in condensed form - and the side issue, that IT inadvertently raised whilst trying to dodge the obvious conclusion that this "all scripture" claim was untrue, that Baha'u'llah did not get his information from learning or scholars...and then you did my job for me by inadvertently selecting a couple of quotations that Baha'u'llah uses from a late 17th century hadith and misquotes proving that Baha'u'llah was dependent on the writings of mere humans for information.I choose those passages from the Kitab-i-Iqan as they aligned nicely with what Jesus was quoted as saying in Matthew 13:10-17. I had considered the obvious meaning of His words first, a little like your approach to the Biblical verses you believe support Propitiatory atonement.
Its a quotation Tony - Baha'u'llah was explicitly quoting from "the Bihar" - he says so in the immediately previous paragraph.
What on earth are you talking about?I understand your need for every thing to have a specific proof.
I do not see it that way. To me everything ties back to a single source and that is God. This to me it all is great.
It is this Biblical passage that I see Baha'u'llah supports in the Kitab-i-iqan, over and over.
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."
This theme is also strong in Baha'u'llah's mystical work of the seven valleys. In the valley of knowledge it is said (old translation)
"Split the atom’s heart, and lo!
Within it thou wilt find a sun.
He beholdeth justice in injustice, and in justice, grace. In ignorance he findeth many a knowledge hidden, and in knowledge a myriad wisdoms manifest. He breaketh the cage of the body and the passions, and consorteth with the people of the immortal realm. He mounteth on the ladders of inner truth and hasteneth to the heaven of inner significance. He rideth in the ark of “we shall show them our signs in and journeyeth over the sea of “until it become plain to them that (this Book) is the truth.” And if he meeteth with injustice he shall have patience, and if he cometh upon wrath he shall manifest love..."
Regards Tony
What on earth are you talking about?
And BTW - that first part of your Seven Valleys quote is another example of Baha'u'llah quoting human words directly - Rumi this time I think - or one of the other Sufi poets.
Reinterpreting the Qur'an (which is what Baha'u'llah mostly does in Iqan) is not the same as making a condensed soup of "all scripture".I am not sure how proper interpreting the Quran, Bible and expressions such as Rebirth which is from previous scriptures is any different than referring to scriptures of the past. Interpreting requires referring to scriptures expressions and verse!
The fact that once for all time sin-atoning propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus is manifestly absent from Iqan is not a matter we can either agree or disagree on. It just is not there. The multiple sacrifices of multiple manifestations is clearly not the same thing at all. It just is not. There is no agree or disagree about it.We can agree to disagree and leave it as is!
Reinterpreting the Qur'an (which is what Baha'u'llah mostly does in Iqan) is not the same as making a condensed soup of "all scripture".
The fact that once for all time sin-atoning propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus is manifestly absent from Iqan is not a matter we can either agree or disagree on. It just is not there. The multiple sacrifices of multiple manifestations is clearly not the same thing at all. It just is not. There is no agree or disagree about it.
If you honestly feel that the one-off sacrifice of Jesus is included in the many sacrifices of multiple Manifestations, you have a hell of a job to do to reconcile the scriptures I listed above to that teaching. And if those scriptures are wrong, then - as I have been discussing with Adrian - the entire Gospel and the letters of both Peter and Paul are faulty. On what basis can we then trust anything in them. There is no more important and no clearer message in the Gospel than the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ and it makes no sense whatsoever to have that happening over and over again. To say otherwise is to deny the Gospel altogether. It could not be clearer as far as I can see. And its fine by me for someone to reject the Gospel altogether. What is not fine is for someone to claim that they believe the Gospel whilst at the same time denying its most important teaching - that is not just dishonest - its treachery. "Spiritual" treachery.
Sufi poetry was not "obscure" in 19th century Persia. Neither were the works of 17th century Persian clerics. Neither were Shi'i and especially Shaykhi teachings regarding the imminent re-appearance of the 12th Imam and the Qaim or Mahdi. This is the stuff of Baha'u'llah's "revelation". This is the stuff of the Iqan.Yes Baha'u'llah quotes often from many various and obscure sources.
Ye Gods Tony! You should leave off the Sufi poetry for a while - you're coming over all mystical!This is the Oneness I talk about. It is the rainbow that is seen when it refracts from white light shining through a prisim.
Each sacrifice is the same sacrifice, serving the same purpose, but we can choose to see it as another colour of the resulting rainbow.
Or we look at the foundation as to why the sacrafice is made. The story of the Bab mirrors that of Christ, so what is offered in the bible mirrors the oneness, it has much deeper meaning.
Regards Tony
You seem to be missing something. I am not saying it is false to say that only through the sacrifice of Christ, the world of humanity can be saved. No one else other than Christ, and through His sacrifice can save the world from the sin. Thus, it is only Christ that the term atonement is applicable. You need to understand that, in Bahai view, Christ, is the Spirit of God, and there is only One Spirit of God. Thus, when the Spirit of God manifested in the person of Jesus, He said, I am the only One who saves. I am the only truth. In another time, this same spirit of God manifested in the person of Buddha, and thus said, I have sacrificed my life many times to save humanity from the sin. More recently, the Spirit of God was Manifested from Bahaullah, the only one who can save the world. In Bahai view, the mistake that Christians, as well anyone else who reads bible literally is, they do not understand that The individuality of Jesus is not the One saves, but the Christ, the only Spirit of God who was manifested from Jesus is the saviour.Reinterpreting the Qur'an (which is what Baha'u'llah mostly does in Iqan) is not the same as making a condensed soup of "all scripture".
The fact that once for all time sin-atoning propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus is manifestly absent from Iqan is not a matter we can either agree or disagree on. It just is not there. The multiple sacrifices of multiple manifestations is clearly not the same thing at all. It just is not. There is no agree or disagree about it.
If you honestly feel that the one-off sacrifice of Jesus is included in the many sacrifices of multiple Manifestations, you have a hell of a job to do to reconcile the scriptures I listed above to that teaching. And if those scriptures are wrong, then - as I have been discussing with Adrian - the entire Gospel and the letters of both Peter and Paul are faulty. On what basis can we then trust anything in them. There is no more important and no clearer message in the Gospel than the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ and it makes no sense whatsoever to have that happening over and over again. To say otherwise is to deny the Gospel altogether. It could not be clearer as far as I can see. And its fine by me for someone to reject the Gospel altogether. What is not fine is for someone to claim that they believe the Gospel whilst at the same time denying its most important teaching - that is not just dishonest - its treachery. "Spiritual" treachery.
You're right! I'm missing the bit where he says in the Iqan "one atonement"! Perhaps you can help me to find that.You seem to be missing something...
...Thus, when we understand that All manifestations of God are indeed One person, and one spirit, we do not have any problem accepting that the atonement is applicable to all manifestations. That is exactly what Bahaullah says in the Iqan:
"...they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation."
You're right! I'm missing the bit where he says in the Iqan "one atonement"! Perhaps you can help me to find that.
...and very clearly says nothing whatsoever about atonement.It is loud and very clear...
...and very clearly says nothing whatsoever about atonement.
What are? The First, the Last, the One, and the Same Faith. Can you translate this Baha'ispeak to modern English?The First and the Last have proclaimed the One and the Same Faith. All their teachings are from the same source, thus the meaning of the word is simply at-one-ment, i.e., the state of being at one or being reconciled, so that atonement is reconciliation and is made much more apparent with the Message of Baha'u'llah.
Regards Tony
So you say...but there is still not one word in the Iqan that specifically relates to the the once for all time sin atoning propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ in behalf of the whole world that is so clearly a central feature of the Christian Bible - is there? In his OP IT asked us for examples of teachings in other scriptures that cannot be found in the Iqan - if you can show me where the Biblical idea of propitiatory atonement appears in the Iqan then I will happily concede - all you guys have done so far is show me that you do not understand the Biblical doctrine of atonement at all. Atonement is not reconciliation - at least not from a scriptural viewpoint - it is a precursor to reconciliation (Romans 5:8; Colossians 1:22) - Christ had to die a sacrificial death (this is the atonement - the right act to correct the wrong) so that our reconciliation to God could be possible. Scripturally, this is very, very different from the sacrifices of Buddha or the Bab - and scripturally, it can only happen once (Hebrews 10:12-14). I know of no other scriptural tradition that makes such a claim. And I certainly don't see it in the general (not to say glib) discussion of the "sacrifices" of various "Manifestations" in the Iqan.The First and the Last have proclaimed the One and the Same Faith. All their teachings are from the same source, thus the meaning of the word is simply at-one-ment, i.e., the state of being at one or being reconciled, so that atonement is reconciliation and is made much more apparent with the Message of Baha'u'llah.
What are? The First, the Last, the One, and the Same Faith. Can you translate this Baha'ispeak to modern English?