If the Bible was first discovered in the Qumran caves near the Dead Sea...

PruePhillip said:

You referring to Paul's earliest letter? I have no doubt that John was written as it
happened. It's possible that Matthew was written as it happened - Matthew employed
a form of 'shorthand' which he learned for his profession. What Jesus preached was
considered (logically speaking) to be of such significance and weight that people would
have wanted to record it as it was spoken.
Don't confused 'first written' with 'earliest manuscript found.'

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They didn't record what Jesus said as he said it.. Most of the time his disciples weren't around.

Paul's first letters were written about 50 AD from Antioch... or 56 AD from Corinth.

sooda said:

All thru the Bible Israel is referred to as the harlot chasing after false gods. No one thought Rome was the Whore of Babylon until Martin Luther came along. I think you misread 7 hills because you have been mislead by futurism. The Scofield heresy didn't catch on until the Great Depression and the Dust Bowl years.

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IMO Revelations speaks mostly to 'Babylon' which signifies false religion in general.
I suspect the whore who sits on seven hills might be the one and only reference to
the Roman Catholic Church (RCC)
The RCC was too significant not to dismiss as just another religion. At its height it
ruled over the known world. In the Revelation context it appears to be speaking of
a CHRISTIAN APOSTASY, nothing Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan etc..

As an aside, the prophecy concerning the real Babylon is interesting. The bible
says that it will never be inhabited again. And of Rome the bible says it will fall,
but never fall. Both these are fascinating insights into the power of the bible.

sooda said:

They didn't record what Jesus said as he said it.. Most of the time his disciples weren't around.

Paul's first letters were written about 50 AD from Antioch.

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Matthew would have been with Jesus on the mount when he gave his sermon, no?
Says Jesus gave the sermon to his disciples firstly.
And John was with Jesus in that last meeting - the bulk of which filled John's gospel.

PruePhillip said:

Matthew would have been with Jesus on the mount when he gave his sermon, no?
Says Jesus gave the sermon to his disciples firstly.
And John was with Jesus in that last meeting - the bulk of which filled John's gospel.

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Well, they weren't around when Jesus appeared before Herod Antipas or Pontius Pilate. .. and several other times if memory serves. Mark, Luke and Paul never knew Jesus.

PruePhillip said:

IMO Revelations speaks mostly to 'Babylon' which signifies false religion in general.
I suspect the whore who sits on seven hills might be the one and only reference to
the Roman Catholic Church (RCC)
The RCC was too significant not to dismiss as just another religion. At its height it
ruled over the known world. In the Revelation context it appears to be speaking of
a CHRISTIAN APOSTASY, nothing Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan etc..

As an aside, the prophecy concerning the real Babylon is interesting. The bible
says that it will never be inhabited again. And of Rome the bible says it will fall,
but never fall. Both these are fascinating insights into the power of the bible.

Click to expand...

Nope. Israel is the whore of Babylon .. Read your Bible.
Revelation is about what happens to Israel in 66 to 70 AD.. John of Patmos says so and calls himself your brother in tribulation. Jesus tells you WHEN it will happen and what to do to avoid the tribulation. Your scholarship is poor and you have too much Hal Lindsey.

sooda said:

Nope. Israel is the whore of Babylon .. Read your Bible.
Revelation is about what happens to Israel in 66 to 70 AD.. John of Patmos says so and calls himself your brother in tribulation. Jesus tells you WHEN it will happen and what to do to avoid the tribulation. Your scholarship is poor and you have too much Hal Lindsey.

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One of the fascinating things in Revelations is its reference to a false religion in the future.
Speaks of it, if I recall, 'no more the voice of the bride and bridegroom, no more the lighted
candle... but a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.'
In John's day there was no church building - none built, none authorized. But here is speaks
of this church as having vast power and wealth, and falling suddenly. Either a physical fall
or a moral fall (hateful birds, ie political and social activism, liberation theology etc..)
This ties in with what Jesus and Paul spoke of an apostasy and falling away.
Fascinating the reference to candles and weddings - and not just wealth, pomp and power.

I am glad the bible is a book for all time - not four years.

sooda said:

Well, they weren't around when Jesus appeared before Herod Antipas or Pontius Pilate. .. and several other times if memory serves. Mark, Luke and Paul never knew Jesus.

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True, but they didn't actually say they were present. News gets around, people
knew each other quite well.

PruePhillip said:

One of the fascinating things in Revelations is its reference to a false religion in the future.
Speaks of it, if I recall, 'no more the voice of the bride and bridegroom, no more the lighted
candle... but a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.'
In John's day there was no church building - none built, none authorized. But here is speaks
of this church as having vast power and wealth, and falling suddenly. Either a physical fall
or a moral fall (hateful birds, ie political and social activism, liberation theology etc..)
This ties in with what Jesus and Paul spoke of an apostasy and falling away.
Fascinating the reference to candles and weddings - and not just wealth, pomp and power.

I am glad the bible is a book for all time - not four years.

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Rev 18:22
and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery.

for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived; meaning her false doctrines, traditions, idolatry, superstition, and will worship, with which, as another Jezebel, she has bewitched, allured, and deceived the nations of the empire, and the kings thereof, Revelation 18:3.

First for implies how great the desolation; for Babylon’s merchants were once princes; the second for implies the justice of the downfall; for she was the world’s corruptress.

Its about Babylon NOT the Church or Rome.

Lament Over Fallen Babylon
1After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor. 2 With a mighty voice he shouted:

“‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!’[a]
She has become a dwelling for demons
and a haunt for every impure spirit,
a haunt for every unclean bird,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal.
3 For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.”

Warning to Escape Babylon’s Judgment
4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“‘Come out of her, my people,’[b]
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5 for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.
6 Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Pour her a double portion from her own cup.
7 Give her as much torment and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
‘I sit enthroned as queen.
I am not a widow;[c]
I will never mourn.’
8 Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

Threefold Woe Over Babylon’s Fall
9 “When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. 10 Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
you mighty city of Babylon!
In one hour your doom has come!’

11 “The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes anymore— 12 cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13 cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and human beings sold as slaves.

14 “They will say, ‘The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your luxury and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.’ 15 The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16 and cry out:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
17 In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’

continued

Revelation 18 - New International Version (NIV) | Biblica

sooda said:

Its about Babylon NOT the Church or Rome.

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And Egypt is about that land south of Gaza.
But Egypt is a figure for the world, Canaanites are figures for worldliness
and Babylon is a figure for false religion.
Babylon reached its peak half a millennium before Jesus. It had long fallen.

Babylon represents false religion. The reference to Rome I suggest is
the 'whore who sits in seven hills.'
I put it to you that this might be the only reference to a specific church
in the New Testament.

PruePhillip said:

Re Martyrdom of Peter, Paul and Luke.
Depends what you mean by the 'Gospels'
are you referring to the Epistles too?

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I referred to the NT as a whole, particularly the gospels. The Epistles have problems, particularly authorship of some of the Epistles. Only some of Paul's letters may be originals with an early date.

Luke completed his Gospel account, but did not really finish
his Acts. He was with Paul in his last journey to Rome, and
it is here his Acts abruptly finishes.

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Not sure how you would prove something was redacted.
I suggest the only redaction I suggest is plausible is the end
of Mark's Gospel. But even here what might be 'missing'
could simply have been missing in extant copies of Mark.
Don't know.

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The gospels are of highly questionable authorship, and provenance, and the synoptic gospels likely are evolved beginning with Mark, and as I said for example; I John 5 7:8 are clearly added.

PruePhillip said:

And Egypt is about that land south of Gaza.
But Egypt is a figure for the world, Canaanites are figures for worldliness
and Babylon is a figure for false religion.
Babylon reached its peak half a millennium before Jesus. It had long fallen.

Babylon represents false religion. The reference to Rome I suggest is
the 'whore who sits in seven hills.'
I put it to you that this might be the only reference to a specific church
in the New Testament.

Click to expand...

Babylon was finally captured by the Medes and Persians under Cyrus as and the Babylonian Empire came to an end in 536 BC.

Whore of Babylon is a code name for the corrupt Jerusalem of the 33 - 70 AD time period, upon whom God's judgment fell.

Ezekiel 16:27-30:

"Behold, therefore, I stretched out My hand against you, diminished your allotment, and gave you up to the will of those who hate you, the daughters of the Philistines, who were ashamed of your lewd behavior. You also played the harlot with the Assyrians, because you were insatiable; indeed you played the harlot with them and still were not satisfied. Moreover you multiplied your acts of harlotry as far as the land of the trader, Chaldea; and even then you were not satisfied. How degenerate is you heart!" says the Lord GOD, "seeing you do all these things, the deeds of a brazen harlot."

shunyadragon said:

I referred to the NT as a whole, particularly the gospels. The Epistles have problems, particularly authorship of some of the Epistles. Only some of Paul's letters may be originals with an early date.
The gospels are of highly questionable authorship, and provenance, and the synoptic gospels likely are evolved beginning with Mark, and as I said for example; I John 5 7:8 are clearly added.

Click to expand...

I think it was in the "Jewish DNA - The Kohanim Gene and the Lost Tribes of Israel"
video that the speaker mimed that behavior of what he called the "liberal" academic in regards the bible. Something along
the line of "the mythic nature of the bible with its legendary tales" that I found so funny. DNA demonstrates a long line of
Levitical ancestry. It is unfolding the story of the Jew back to the Bronze Age. In time I hope they can uncover the entire
DNA profile to demonstrate there were 12 tribes (bone, teeth etc analysis etc. as these tribes supposedly occupied various
areas of what became Israel after Joshua.)

Authorship of the Gospels was based upon the names traditionally associated with them. They weren't pulled out of the air.
The names bear a grainy resemblance to three of the people mentioned in the NT, ie Matthew the legal guy, John the tender
hearted one and Luke the physician/historian. The authors considered their names to be of no significance to the story of
Christ, nor should we.

sooda said:

Babylon was finally captured by the Medes and Persians under Cyrus as and the Babylonian Empire came to an end in 536 BC.

Whore of Babylon is a code name for the corrupt Jerusalem of the 33 - 70 AD time period, upon whom God's judgment fell.

Ezekiel 16:27-30:

"Behold, therefore, I stretched out My hand against you, diminished your allotment, and gave you up to the will of those who hate you, the daughters of the Philistines, who were ashamed of your lewd behavior. You also played the harlot with the Assyrians, because you were insatiable; indeed you played the harlot with them and still were not satisfied. Moreover you multiplied your acts of harlotry as far as the land of the trader, Chaldea; and even then you were not satisfied. How degenerate is you heart!" says the Lord GOD, "seeing you do all these things, the deeds of a brazen harlot."

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Jerusalem was a Roman city by the time John wrote Revelations. And he wrote of what must come in the future.

Jerusalem called by the derogatory names of "Sodom and Egypt" (Revelation 11:8)

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

Revelation 17:6
And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I marveled greatly.

Isaiah 1:21
How the faithful city has become a whore, she who was full of justice! Righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers.

Hosea 1:2
When the LORD began to speak by Hosea, the LORD said to Hosea:
' Go, take yourself a wife of harlotry
And children of harlotry,
For the land has committed great harlotry
By departing from the LORD.'

Jeremiah 3:7-10
And I said, after she had done all these things, ‘Return to Me.’ But she did not return. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also. So it came to pass, through her casual harlotry, that she defiled the land and committed adultery with stones and trees. And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah has not turned to Me with her whole heart, but in pretense," says the LORD.

Hosea 4:12

My people consult their wooden idol, and their diviner's wand informs them; For a spirit of harlotry has led them astray, And they have played the harlot, departing from their God.


Jeremiah 13:27

"As for your adulteries and your lustful neighings, The lewdness of your prostitution On the hills in the field, I have seen your abominations Woe to you, O Jerusalem! How long will you remain unclean?"



Kings 9:22

When Joram saw Jehu, he said, "Is it peace, Jehu?" And he answered, "What peace, so long as the harlotries of your mother Jezebel and her witchcrafts are so many?"


Thus they became unclean in their practices, And played the harlot in their deeds.


'>Ezekiel 23:3-19

and they played the harlot in Egypt. They played the harlot in their youth; there their breasts were pressed and there their virgin bosom was handled. "Their names were Oholah the elder and Oholibah her sister. And they became Mine, and they bore sons and daughters. And as for their names, Samaria is Oholah and Jerusalem is Oholibah. "Oholah played the harlot while she was Mine; and she lusted after her lovers, after the Assyrians, her neighbors,.

PruePhillip said:

Jerusalem was a Roman city by the time John wrote Revelations. And he wrote of what must come in the future.

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Correct... and it did come .. 40 years after the crucifixion .. a generation. That's why the Temple was destroyed, because Israel played the harlot chasing false gods.

sooda said:

Correct... and it did come .. 40 years after the crucifixion .. a generation. That's why the Temple was destroyed, because Israel played the harlot chasing false gods.

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There are lots of prophecies concerning the destruction of the Temple and the Jewish nation.
But John is not speaking of Israel here in Revelations. He makes is quite clear, "The revelation
from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place."
John was on the Island of Patmos, during the reign of Domitian. There was no more Israel or
Jerusalem at this time.

PruePhillip said:

There are lots of prophecies concerning the destruction of the Temple and the Jewish nation.
But John is not speaking of Israel here in Revelations. He makes is quite clear, "The revelation
from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place."
John was on the Island of Patmos, during the reign of Domitian. There was no more Israel or
Jerusalem at this time.

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Domitian reign

14 September 81 –

18 September 96

(15 years)


Sure there was.. Israel still existed.

The Bar Kokhba revolt (Hebrew: מרד בר כוכבא; Mered Bar Kokhba) was a rebellion of the Jews of the Roman province of Judea, led by Simon bar Kokhba, against the Roman Empire. Fought circa 132–136 CE, it was the last of three major Jewish–Roman wars, so it is also known as The Third Jewish–Roman War or The Third Jewish Revolt. Some historians also refer to it as the Second Revolt of Judea, not counting the Kitos War (115–117 CE), which had only marginally been fought in Judea.

sooda said:

Domitian reign

14 September 81 –

18 September 96

(15 years)


Sure there was.. Israel still existed.

The Bar Kokhba revolt (Hebrew: מרד בר כוכבא; Mered Bar Kokhba) was a rebellion of the Jews of the Roman province of Judea, led by Simon bar Kokhba, against the Roman Empire. Fought circa 132–136 CE, it was the last of three major Jewish–Roman wars, so it is also known as The Third Jewish–Roman War or The Third Jewish Revolt. Some historians also refer to it as the Second Revolt of Judea, not counting the Kitos War (115–117 CE), which had only marginally been fought in Judea.

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When John spoke of Babylon it was about 20 or 30 years after Jerusalem ceased to exist.
The ancient city of the Jews was called Aelia Capitolinus.
John was speaking of the rise and fall of things which hadn't yet even begun.

BilliardsBall said:

I agree with Deut: walk right, live long and prosper IN THIS WORLD/LIFE. Yes, the 5th command of Exodus 20 has a similar promise for obedient children.

The tares are nonbelievers, there are plenty of them where I witness, outside church buildings.

What is your evidence that Paul was a false prophet, since:

* He was accepted by the apostles at their councils
* He was sent to the Gentiles with Barnabas and other trusted brothers
* He was accompanied by the writer of Luke/Acts for years
* His doctrine is all Jesus/OT doctrine

I'd like proof, please, since Peter calls him a dear brother, whose doctrine gets confused by unstable minds.

My sins are forgiven--I'm not ready for Heaven now, as you wrote, and will die, but will be changed, per 1 Cor--partaking of the divine nature at the Rapture, yes!

Click to expand...

Good post.

PruePhillip said:

When John spoke of Babylon it was about 20 or 30 years after Jerusalem ceased to exist.
The ancient city of the Jews was called Aelia Capitolinus.
John was speaking of the rise and fall of things which hadn't yet even begun.

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Jerusalem still existed ..

When the Roman Emperor Hadrian vowed to rebuild Jerusalem from the wreckage in 130 AD, he considered reconstructing Jerusalem as a gift to the Jewish people.

The Jews awaited with hope, but after Hadrian visited Jerusalem, he was discouraged from doing so by a Samaritan (according to rabbinic sources). He then decided to rebuild the city as a Roman colony, which would be inhabited by his legionaries. Hadrian's new city was to be dedicated to himself and certain Roman gods, in particular Jupiter.

snip

following the Bar Kokhba revolt, Emperor Hadrian renamed Iudaea Province with the new name of Syria Palaestina, dispensing with the name of Judea.[ The city was renamed "Aelia Capitolina"