Some thoughts on our political climate.

I rarely log onto Facebook, and when I do the feed is of course filled to the brim with asinine political swill, and the comments rife with cringeworthy bickering and "debates" that amount to little more than image macro spam. So anyway, that inspired me to post the following there, which I thought I might as well share he as well.

"Just some thoughts I wanted to share regarding politics.

I occasionally enjoy civil political discussions/debates online. More often than not, however, it tends to degenerate into people regurgitating bumper sticker slogans, whataboutisms, and straw man fallacies at each other. Also, I usually avoid this on FB because it's one thing it get into heated debates with internet strangers, but it gets awkward when it's with real life family and friends.

How people tend to approach politics seems to have gotten worse in recent years. It's one thing to hold your nose and vote for the "lesser evil", but people tend to treat political parties like sports teams while idolizing and hero worshiping politicians with blind, uncritical loyalty.

People pretend that "their side" can do no wrong, and that the "other side" can do no right. They'll make mountains out of their opponents' molehills, and molehills out of their allies' mountains.
People will loudly scream in outrage when "the other guy" commits some perceived faux pas or misdeed, but when "their guy" does the same or similar, they give a dismissive shrug. Partisanship takes precedence over principles, apparently. Morals and ethics are only useful for condemning the other guy rather than as a standard to strive for.

Each side tries to paint the other with their most extreme examples; i.e. if you lean left even slightly you're a labeled "communist", if you lean right even slightly you're a labeled "fascist", etc.
There is also this prevalent assumption that if you're critical of a particular politician then you must be an admirer of their opponent.

In short, it has gotten extremely divisive, polarized, and rife with double standards and hypocrisy. We invest our egos, emotions, and identities on where we stand on the political spectrum in lieu of reason and pragmatism (I often find myself guilty of this as well). The irony is that average Americans have more in common than not regardless of their political leanings.

Anyway that's all I have to say for now. Thanks for reading."

This of course was met with cricket chirps, other than a single comment that said "What I have to say is that God is still in control."

Thanks for reminding us not to idolise our political leaders

Father Heathen said:

I rarely log onto Facebook, and when I do the feed is of course filled to the brim with asinine political swill, and the comments rife with cringeworthy bickering and "debates" that amount to little more than image macro spam. So anyway, that inspired me to post the following there, which I thought I might as well share he as well.

"Just some thoughts I wanted to share regarding politics.

I occasionally enjoy civil political discussions/debates online. More often than not, however, it tends to degenerate into people regurgitating bumper sticker slogans, whataboutisms, and straw man fallacies at each other. Also, I usually avoid this on FB because it's one thing it get into heated debates with internet strangers, but it gets awkward when it's with real life family and friends.

How people tend to approach politics seems to have gotten worse in recent years. It's one thing to hold your nose and vote for the "lesser evil", but people tend to treat political parties like sports teams while idolizing and hero worshiping politicians with blind, uncritical loyalty.

People pretend that "their side" can do no wrong, and that the "other side" can do no right. They'll make mountains out of their opponents' molehills, and molehills out of their allies' mountains.
People will loudly scream in outrage when "the other guy" commits some perceived faux pas or misdeed, but when "their guy" does the same or similar, they give a dismissive shrug. Partisanship takes precedence over principles, apparently. Morals and ethics are only useful for condemning the other guy rather than as a standard to strive for.

Each side tries to paint the other with their most extreme examples; i.e. if you lean left even slightly you're a labeled "communist", if you lean right even slightly you're a labeled "fascist", etc.
There is also this prevalent assumption that if you're critical of a particular politician then you must be an admirer of their opponent.

In short, it has gotten extremely divisive, polarized, and rife with double standards and hypocrisy. We invest our egos, emotions, and identities on where we stand on the political spectrum in lieu of reason and pragmatism (I often find myself guilty of this as well). The irony is that average Americans have more in common than not regardless of their political leanings.

Anyway that's all I have to say for now. Thanks for reading."

This of course was met with cricket chirps, other than a single comment that said "What I have to say is that God is still in control."

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Good post..

I think anonymous social media has made it worse.. You know, this whole "I hate political correctness" mantra..

Face to face I think people are more likely to listen and be courteous than blasting away on the internet.

Now we have Trump who glorifies lies, personal attacks and conspiracy theories.. and that too has made for less civility.

Father Heathen said:

I rarely log onto Facebook, and when I do the feed is of course filled to the brim with asinine political swill, and the comments rife with cringeworthy bickering and "debates" that amount to little more than image macro spam. So anyway, that inspired me to post the following there, which I thought I might as well share he as well.

"Just some thoughts I wanted to share regarding politics.

I occasionally enjoy civil political discussions/debates online. More often than not, however, it tends to degenerate into people regurgitating bumper sticker slogans, whataboutisms, and straw man fallacies at each other. Also, I usually avoid this on FB because it's one thing it get into heated debates with internet strangers, but it gets awkward when it's with real life family and friends.

How people tend to approach politics seems to have gotten worse in recent years. It's one thing to hold your nose and vote for the "lesser evil", but people tend to treat political parties like sports teams while idolizing and hero worshiping politicians with blind, uncritical loyalty.

People pretend that "their side" can do no wrong, and that the "other side" can do no right. They'll make mountains out of their opponents' molehills, and molehills out of their allies' mountains.
People will loudly scream in outrage when "the other guy" commits some perceived faux pas or misdeed, but when "their guy" does the same or similar, they give a dismissive shrug. Partisanship takes precedence over principles, apparently. Morals and ethics are only useful for condemning the other guy rather than as a standard to strive for.

Each side tries to paint the other with their most extreme examples; i.e. if you lean left even slightly you're a labeled "communist", if you lean right even slightly you're a labeled "fascist", etc.
There is also this prevalent assumption that if you're critical of a particular politician then you must be an admirer of their opponent.

In short, it has gotten extremely divisive, polarized, and rife with double standards and hypocrisy. We invest our egos, emotions, and identities on where we stand on the political spectrum in lieu of reason and pragmatism (I often find myself guilty of this as well). The irony is that average Americans have more in common than not regardless of their political leanings.

Anyway that's all I have to say for now. Thanks for reading."

This of course was met with cricket chirps, other than a single comment that said "What I have to say is that God is still in control."

Click to expand...

If only people would put aside their petty differences and come together to defeat the real enemy that threatens us all!

Father Heathen said:

People pretend that "their side" can do no wrong, and that the "other side" can do no right. They'll make mountains out of their opponents' molehills, and molehills out of their allies' mountains.
People will loudly scream in outrage when "the other guy" commits some perceived faux pas or misdeed, but when "their guy" does the same or similar, they give a dismissive shrug. Partisanship takes precedence over principles, apparently. Morals and ethics are only useful for condemning the other guy rather than as a standard to strive for.

Click to expand...

Interesting. My Facebook feed is filled with Democrats - or actual left wingers - mostly complaining about how various Democrat candidates are lacking in whichever ways they care about.

Less often, but still a fair bit of the time, I see Republicans complaining about Trump or other Republican politicians.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Interesting. My Facebook feed is filled with Democrats - or actual left wingers - mostly complaining about how various Democrat candidates are lacking in whichever ways they care about.

Less often, but still a fair bit of the time, I see Republicans complaining about Trump or other Republican politicians.

Click to expand...

Trump is the same guy he was when he was a Republican.. If he'd been elected as a Democrat he would still be the liar and cheat he's always been over the past 40 years.... and he has always compromised the people who got involved with him.

Father Heathen said:

I rarely log onto Facebook, and when I do the feed is of course filled to the brim with asinine political swill, and the comments rife with cringeworthy bickering and "debates" that amount to little more than image macro spam. So anyway, that inspired me to post the following there, which I thought I might as well share he as well.

"Just some thoughts I wanted to share regarding politics.

I occasionally enjoy civil political discussions/debates online. More often than not, however, it tends to degenerate into people regurgitating bumper sticker slogans, whataboutisms, and straw man fallacies at each other. Also, I usually avoid this on FB because it's one thing it get into heated debates with internet strangers, but it gets awkward when it's with real life family and friends.

How people tend to approach politics seems to have gotten worse in recent years. It's one thing to hold your nose and vote for the "lesser evil", but people tend to treat political parties like sports teams while idolizing and hero worshiping politicians with blind, uncritical loyalty.

People pretend that "their side" can do no wrong, and that the "other side" can do no right. They'll make mountains out of their opponents' molehills, and molehills out of their allies' mountains.
People will loudly scream in outrage when "the other guy" commits some perceived faux pas or misdeed, but when "their guy" does the same or similar, they give a dismissive shrug. Partisanship takes precedence over principles, apparently. Morals and ethics are only useful for condemning the other guy rather than as a standard to strive for.

Each side tries to paint the other with their most extreme examples; i.e. if you lean left even slightly you're a labeled "communist", if you lean right even slightly you're a labeled "fascist", etc.
There is also this prevalent assumption that if you're critical of a particular politician then you must be an admirer of their opponent.

In short, it has gotten extremely divisive, polarized, and rife with double standards and hypocrisy. We invest our egos, emotions, and identities on where we stand on the political spectrum in lieu of reason and pragmatism (I often find myself guilty of this as well). The irony is that average Americans have more in common than not regardless of their political leanings.

Anyway that's all I have to say for now. Thanks for reading."

This of course was met with cricket chirps, other than a single comment that said "What I have to say is that God is still in control."

Click to expand...

I grew up in a family where politics was often discussed - and sometimes discussions would get rather heated among family members who disagree. Usually, though, despite how heated it got, they could reach a point where they could agree to disagree without condemning each other as the "scum of the earth" for having an opposing view.

Another thing I've noticed as being rather common in political debates is that people tend to talk past each other more than talking to each other. I also see a tendency of people to speak in vague terms, hinting at something they seem to want to say, yet never really addressing their opponent's arguments in earnest.

I attribute this more to laziness than any actual malice. It's easier and far less work to embrace bumper sticker slogans, strawmen, etc. than it is to actually put forth thoughtful, considerate arguments advocating for one's position. It's far easier to attack someone else's position than it is to defend one's own position.

That, to me, is a much bigger frustration than anything else. I don't care if people are mean and nasty; I don't even care if they're trolls (in fact, some trolls can even be interesting). It's the lazy pseudo-intellectuals who want to appear as if they're informed and actually care about an issue, yet can't be bothered to put in any genuine skill, effort, or passion into actually advocating for their position.

sooda said:

Trump is the same guy he was when he was a Republican.

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I'm not sure what you mean. Trump *is* a Republican.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

I'm not sure what you mean. Trump *is* a Republican.

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LOL.. thanks.. I misspoke, Trump used to be a Democrat.. and according to him he has been both.. He's still Trump.... with lies and conspiracy theories and personal attacks.

Stevicus said:

I grew up in a family where politics was often discussed - and sometimes discussions would get rather heated among family members who disagree. Usually, though, despite how heated it got, they could reach a point where they could agree to disagree without condemning each other as the "scum of the earth" for having an opposing view.

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But what positions were your family members supporting? What did they disagree on?

Edit: what I'm getting at is that civil discourse is predicated on the assumption that the ideas being discussed are civil. It's one thing to have different ideas on, say, the best policies to encourage economic growth, but it's a different matter to not express outrage at, say, lynchings back in the day or locking kids in cages as a general policy today. On both issues, only one side is being civil in the first place, so only one side is entitled to a civil response.

Also remember: 20-30 years ago, a family dinner table probably also had at least one person at it who travelled to another continent to kill fascists. Speaking of fascists in disparaging terms kinda pales by comparison.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

But what positions were your family members supporting? What did they disagree on?

Edit: what I'm getting at is that civil discourse is predicated on the assumption that the ideas being discussed are civil. It's one thing to have different ideas on, say, the best policies to encourage economic growth, but it's a different matter to not express outrage at, say, lynchings back in the day or locking kids in cages as a generap policy today. On both issues, only one side is being civil in the first place, so only one side is entitled to a civil response.

Also remember: 20-30 years ago, a family dinner table probably also had at least one person at it who travelled to another continent to kill fascists. Speaking of fascists in disparaging terms kinda pales by comparison.

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Who do you think supports Fascists today?

sooda said:

Who do you think supports Fascists today?

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Trump supporters.

Is Trump driving the U.S. toward the brink of fascism?

sooda said:

Good post..

I think anonymous social media has made it worse.. You know, this whole "I hate political correctness" mantra..

Face to face I think people are more likely to listen and be courteous than blasting away on the internet.

Now we have Trump who glorifies lies, personal attacks and conspiracy theories.. and that too has made for less civility.

Click to expand...

Irony reigns supreme.....

Kangaroo Feathers said:

If only people would put aside their petty differences and come together to defeat the real enemy that threatens us all!

*sinister music*
View attachment 27329
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What, we should pit New Zealand and Canada at each other and see who can out polite the other?

dianaiad said:

Irony reigns supreme.....

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I am one of those people who values political courtesy.

Father Heathen said:

In short, it has gotten extremely divisive, polarized, and rife with double standards and hypocrisy. We invest our egos, emotions, and identities on where we stand on the political spectrum in lieu of reason and pragmatism

Click to expand...

That is the intent. This was done purposefully over the course of the last few decades. Much easier to have control over whose ability to reason has been emotionally compromised. 'Argle Bargle Fascism/Communism!' 'They're evil/unamerican/bigots it's okay to hate them!' It's vacuous nonsense.

sooda said:

I am one of those people who values political courtesy.

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Then perhaps you shouldn't be quite so partisan when it comes to Trump?

I mean, really....Obama was vilified in VERY much the same way by his opponents...and quite frankly, while I was one of those, I didn't make statements like yours. In fact, few were as utterly annoyed by the 'Birther' people as I was. Even though I really disagreed with Obama's politics, I was solidly defending his American citizenship and right to BE President.

Speaking of...here's something that has made me go 'hmmmn...' And yes, it is pertinent. Everybody on the left is out to prove that Trump was in league with Russia to get the election, though there has really been no proof. He is called 'traitor,' and calls for impeachment are rampant...the insults are all over the place. "Liar," for instance?

But when Obama was CAUGHT ON TAPE promising Medvedev that he would have 'more flexibility' towards Russia after the 2012 election, were there FBI investigations? Did congress start impeachment proceedings? Was there wide spread suspicion that Obama was actually soliciting Russia's help WITH that election by promising that particular juicy incentive?

Why, no. Yeah, his opponents were livid. I was certainly not pleased...and nothing Trump has done has 'trumped' that particular bit of skullduggery, in my view...but I don't think anybody was considering his words as asking for help with the election, or conspiring with Medvedev and Putin to get it.

Though it certainly was considerably more damning than anything Trump may have done. It was an absolute bribe situation, if one considers that Russia has a habit of interfering in elections. "Get me elected and I will be nicer to you..." Uh huh. It's not as if that were not known in 2011/12.

So, sooda, while I understand your 'valuing' of political courtesy,' the irony here is that you showed anything BUT political courtesy in your comments regarding Trump, as obviously partisan as they were, immediately after condemning the lack of political courtesy. What you were saying, in effect, was 'everybody needs to be courteous towards the left, but if you have something insulting to say about the right, then of course there is no need to be courteous." Double standards. Just like with the Obama/Medvedev compared to Trump/some anonymous Russion maybe, comparison.

BTW, I do not think now, nor did I think then, that Obama was soliciting aid from Russia to rig the election.

Any more than I think Trump did. Trump has a big mouth and no filter. We all know precisely what he thinks at all times, good, bad or indifferent. It's not comfortable in a politician, when we all expect that the words spoken do not reflect anything but vocabulary practice. It is, however, an interesting ride.

Mister Emu said:

That is the intent. This was done purposefully over the course of the last few decades. Much easier to have control over whose ability to reason has been emotionally compromised. 'Argle Bargle Fascism/Communism!' 'They're evil/unamerican/bigots it's okay to hate them!' It's vacuous nonsense.

Click to expand...

I can explain point-by-point how the whole "MAGA" movement incorporates fascism, if you like.

What I notice is a more general trend of people misusing language. Hyperbole is all well and good, but these days many people seem to be constantly using hyperbolic language. It creates the impression of more extreme polarization when under the surface, that is not necessarily the case. I suspect some of this happened because when you live in an era with so much noise, you have to yell louder to get people to pay attention to your particular signal. The problem with this is that when a culture is constantly using exaggerated language, it just deadens the entire field. Suddenly we don't have the words left to express actual outrage because everybody us using over-the-top language.

I don't know what the solution is. There are too many these days who are of the mindset that words to not have power or that words do not matter. They do matter. The stories we tell matter. In most cases, the stories we tell about the world matter more than the facts do, because stories are what motivate people over facts, yes? Anyway, I digress...

Quintessence said:

What I notice is a more general trend of people misusing language. Hyperbole is all well and good, but these days many people seem to be constantly using hyperbolic language. It creates the impression of more extreme polarization when under the surface, that is not necessarily the case. I suspect some of this happened because when you live in an era with so much noise, you have to yell louder to get people to pay attention to your particular signal. The problem with this is that when a culture is constantly using exaggerated language, it just deadens the entire field. Suddenly we don't have the words left to express actual outrage because everybody us using over-the-top language.

I don't know what the solution is. There are too many these days who are of the mindset that words to not have power or that words do not matter. They do matter. The stories we tell matter. In most cases, the stories we tell about the world matter more than the facts do, because stories are what motivate people over facts, yes? Anyway, I digress...

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I think the issue is that - at least in Western democracies - it used to be that "extremist" and "mainstream" used to be different things, so there was no issue with holding different attitudes toward the two groups.

Now, we have extremists in the mainstream, so that muddies the waters: should we treat them as extremists have traditionally been treated, or should we treat them as members of the mainstream have traditionally been treated?

If you treat them as members of the mainstream, you're generally compromising your ethics and morals. If you treat them as extremists, you get the sort of criticisms that our more right-leaning members have given in this thread.