• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Was it any use for jesus to die for sins?

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
No it don't.
Hundreds of years later.
Kind of makes the linkage seem kind of arbitrary.

Where did you get that "no it don't" business. From Jacob
to Moses and David to Daniel the end of Israel with the Messiah
was prophesied. Daniel said He will come "while the temple
still stands." Sounded strange to Jewish ears because at the
time the temple didn't stand at all, and who is this Messiah if
he is going to be cut off?
"Linkage" has nothing to do with time. The Gentiles began
converting during the period of the Acts, until ca 64AD. It is
still going on now. Jesus said this process will continue until
he comes again.
Ezekiel says that Jews will be in their homeland a second
time, "all of them." This suggests that persecution is going to
drive all the Jews out of Gentile lands - and this year anti-
Antisemitism is ramping up hugely in France, Germany,
Greece, Spain and even England.
 

Earthling

David Henson
That's what you say. Other than the fact that there's a dead animal, there's nothing that indicates that this was a sacrifice. And a dead animal does not a sacrifice make.

I'm not sure what your point is here, that the events I spoke of weren't accurate or that they weren't a sacrifice as such. Deuteronomy 21:1-9. Make the distinction. I used the word sacrifice in the literal sense, to give up something for something else.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
No it don't.


Hundreds of years later.
Kind of makes the linkage seem kind of arbitrary.


It is at the Sermon on the Mount that Jesus explains that the new kingdom will awaken the hearts of humanity and that it won’t be just laws and decrees as seen in the old covenant.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Are you trying to say that Christians don't sin?
If a person (anyone) could stop sinning the person would Not die.
So: everyone sins, everyone dies.
What I'm saying is that we can't resurrect anyone who has died.
We can't resurrect oneself or another so we need someone who can resurrect us. Jesus can and will - Revelation 1:18.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
It is at the Sermon on the Mount that Jesus explains that the new kingdom will awaken the hearts of humanity and that it won’t be just laws and decrees as seen in the old covenant.
The ^ above ^ post reminds me of Jesus' NEW commandment as found at John 13:34-35.
We are all to now have the same 'self-sacrificing love' for others as Jesus has.
So, Jesus fulfilled that Royal Law, that Kingly Law of the Golden Rule as per James 2:8.
Thus, self-sacrificing Christ-like love will be the order of the day for everyone when Jesus is king of God's kingdom over Earth for a thousand years before Jesus then hands back God's kingdom to his God - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The Book of Revelation is a letter in the Bible.
I have heard of the 'epistles' as being letters such as some of what John wrote, Peter wrote, and some of Paul's.
I must admit I never heard of the Book of Revelation being a letter / epistle.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
In Hinduism people take dip in the Ganga river to free themselves of past sins. It gives them a second chance to reform. And so with Jesus who saves souls.
I find there is going to be a great saving of souls or persons at the soon coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth.
Jesus will separate people as a shepherd separates sheep from goats as per Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
Those figurative humble ' sheep'-like people can remain alive on Earth right into the start of calendar Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
I find there is going to be a great saving of souls or persons at the soon coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth.
Jesus will separate people as a shepherd separates sheep from goats as per Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
Those figurative humble ' sheep'-like people can remain alive on Earth right into the start of calendar Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth.
I see: I am a goat not a sheep.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Goats survive in hostile conditions, sheep are easily herded and rounded up by sheep dogs.
Interesting point ^ above ^ but Matthew 25:31-33 is an illustration. Not meant about literal sheep and goats.
Just like a real shepherd could separate real sheep from the goats.
Jesus is considered as shepherd in meaning that his followers would hear his voice.
Real sheep know and hear the voice of his own shepherd, and not listen to another.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Interesting point ^ above ^ but Matthew 25:31-33 is an illustration. Not meant about literal sheep and goats.
Just like a real shepherd could separate real sheep from the goats.
Jesus is considered as shepherd in meaning that his followers would hear his voice.
Real sheep know and hear the voice of his own shepherd, and not listen to another.
The Lord is my shepherd,or should I say goatherd.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The Lord is my shepherd,or should I say goatherd.
Basically, I find the illustration of Matthew 35:37,40 is how people treat other people.
Especially, how people treat those who have Jesus as shepherd.
So, how would you treat someone who follows Christ as their shepherd.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
If a person (anyone) could stop sinning the person would Not die.
So: everyone sins, everyone dies.
What I'm saying is that we can't resurrect anyone who has died.
We can't resurrect oneself or another so we need someone who can resurrect us. Jesus can and will - Revelation 1:18.

If that is true, then people who fall in a coma will live forever.

Right?

Ciao

- viole
 

Timothy Spurlin

Active Member
Sin is connected to law. Sin results when you disobey the law. If you disobey the law you are punished for your sin. On the other hand, sin in not imputed, where there is no law.

For example, it is not a sin to take a walk in the park on a nice summer day. If the local officials, one day, made a law that said, "no trespassing in the park during the summer", now a sin will appear if you take that walk. The behavior is the same. The law decides if it becomes a sin or not. If they repeal the no trespassing law, the following year, now there is no sin, if you take that walk. The power of sin is the law.

Forgiveness of sins implies that law, in general, has been repealed, because the state called forgiveness of sins brings one to the same place as though there is no law. If all law was repealed, there would be no defined sins. Forgiveness of sin is like one being exempt from the law, by being exempt for the attached sins. If the law said no trespassing, and you did this, but the judge; uncle Bob, forgives you, it like there is no law or sin for you.

In bible tradition, the tree of knowledge of good and evil is occupied by Satan. Knowledge of good and evil is law, since law differentiates and teaches us the difference between good and evil behavior. Satan in this tree; orientation, tells us this is not an optimized orientation. One big problem with law is humans make too many laws, often for their own personal and political gain. Some would like make it a sin, if a cow has gas. The farmer will be sinner for cows being natural if a law passes.

Another main reason law is not optimized is connected to the concept of original sin. Law is not made for the righteous person. Rather law is made for the sinners. Once a sinner finds a new angle to steal or abusive, a new law will appear to regulate the new behavior. Although this new law covers a loophole in the law, the new law requires everyone conform, as though everyone one is a potential sinner.

In other words, even if you would never do this, due to deep moral and ethical restraint, by accepting group obedience to that new law, you sort of admit you could and would do it. Accepting conformity to that law, even if you would not violate it, is the nature of original sin. Everyone being forced to obey the law, implies that culture assumes we all are have the potential to do all the sins defined by the entire law. Law, and group conformity, assumes the potential for sin is a default state for all humans; original sin. If not, certain people would be exempt, based on proven righteousness.

When Jesus forgives sins, everyone who was assumed to be sinners, by default, due to the nature of conformity to law, can now be treated with the dignity of righteous people, since sin is not imputed when law is made void. Forgiveness of sin, voids the power of the law; sin.

An ideal law system would exempt people, from the majority of law, if they have a proven history of good behavior. We already do this to some extent. Small children are not under all the laws of adults, until they become 18. Children are not considered full original sinners, until they become 18. We assume a level of innocence to many sins. When one is symbolically born again, and we receive forgiveness of sins, we go back to a symbolic state similar to early childhood, where sin is less imputed, due to less forced compliance to all adult law; original sin.

One extra consideration is, even if you can accept forgiveness of sins, the long term impact of law on the unconscious mind, can still cause a state called guilt. Guilt can appear even without sin. For example, you wrong a friend, but that friend forgives you. Your sin has been forgiven. However, one can still feel guilty, even though that sin is not imputed, due to the forgiveness.

It was very difficult for humans, conditioned to original sin, to give up law since guilt would often remain. One is forgiven, but they cannot forgive themselves. There is something that is called the sacrifice for guilty; future. The sacrifice for sins is not complete, without the sacrifice for guilt. This is why law continues to be restored.

TLDR
Breaking human laws doesn't mean you have sinned.
 

Timothy Spurlin

Active Member
In reality?
Well the Old Testament stated that after the death of the Messiah there
would be an end to Israel. Moses and Jacob spoke of the exile of the Jews
and Daniel spoke of the destruction of the temple. Jesus spoke of both
the end of Jerusalem, the destruction of the temple and wrath upon the
Jewish nation.
So the bible isn't about 'pie in the sky'

Secondly it was said that after the Visitation of the Messiah the Gentiles
would believe in Him. Those Jews who did believe in Jesus left the Jewish
nation and became Gentiles, so to speak.

And after His death the Gentile world forsook paganism.

They were forced to leave paganism.
 
Top