"Chicago Billboard Urges Catholics to 'Value Children Over Dogma' and Quit Church"

Subduction Zone said:

Perhaps, and I do not disagree that there will be quite a bit of a negative reaction to this ad. But it will cause far more discussion than a polite ad would. It is also much harder to ignore, whether one agrees with it or not. A "feely touchy ad" (ooh, that does not sound right considering the topic) is easily ignored.

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The think I've noticed in reading about clergy abuse of children is that
there's tremendous pressure upon the kids & parents to keep it quiet.
They should be made to feel more comfortable reporting it, & that this
is necessary to protect others. And of course the message should
apply to cops too, who have often been part of the problem.

If leaving the Church is the only message, that doesn't really stem
the predation on children....it only protects those who leave.

Revoltingest said:

I'd prefer a message encouraging reporting abuse to the cops.
That would be more likely to inspire specific & productive action (IMO).

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Unless the cops are catholic, then the priests probably has a lot of confession booth blackmail material.

Father Heathen said:

Unless the cops are catholic, then the priest probably has a lot of confession booth blackmail material.

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I addressed that in an edit.

By now, you should know better than to quote
my posts before waiting half an hour for them
to settle down to a final version!

Revoltingest said:

It looks like a message designed to offend, rather than gain converts.

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I agree. However some christian billboards have been designed the same, to offend. It seems sometimes people like fueling the fire rather than putting it out.

We Never Know said:

I agree. However some christian billboards have been designed the same, to offend. It seems sometimes people like fueling the fire rather than putting it out.

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Aye, there's never good reason to succumb to the temptation
to respond to bad behavior with more of the same.

Revoltingest said:

Aye, there's never good reason to succumb to the temptation
to respond to bad behavior with more of the same.

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Agreed. As I said sometimes people would rather fuel the fire than put it out.

We Never Know said:

Agreed. As I said sometimes people would rather fuel the fire than put it out.

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Reminds me of Farenheit 451.
There are a lot of "firemen" out there in the world.

ADigitalArtist said:

Because it's a 'leave the church or you're tacitly responsible for child abuse' argument. As if there's no other option for reform than being 100% in or 100% out. Plus the FFRF is using the kids as political leverage to enact their goal. It feels disingenuous and skeevy. And I'm 100% an atheist and in no way affiliated with the catholic church.

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To a degree I do agree that the FFRF is using the the sexual abuse of children among the Catholic clergy to help reach its goal; however, after how Catholics and so many other Christian denominations relentlessly tell the non-believer how they should live their lives, I think this one billboard is a drop in the bucket of questionable religious gambits.

The message I got was that church dogma, whatever it may be, gives its clergy the impression they have permission to use others as sexual objects because they always have the opportunity to absolve themselves of such transgressions through acts of contrition. So, "the victim be damned because I can always put myself right with the lord, and that's all that counts." Through the doctrines and principles of the Church children can be considered the sexual toys of abusive priests

The other half of the billboard says in effect: "Think about it all you good Catholics, with this kind of dogma in place isn't it time to leave a church like this?" Which is no worse than the invitations of any other advertising Christian organizations.

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BSM1 said:

"Pedophelia is wrong, M'kay...."

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Time to shut down that Catholic Boat.

Skwim said:

Which is no worse than the invitations of any other advertising Christian organization.
.

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That seems a poor goal, ie, to be no worse than a despicable church.

Revoltingest said:

That seems a poor goal, ie, to be no worse than a despicable church.

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Not a goal at all, just the way things are.

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Revoltingest said:

It looks like a message designed to offend, rather than gain converts.

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Honestly, I feel we're talking about a situation in which offense is completely warranted. May as well try out emotionally slapping some people and see if it sticks.Given the circumstances, I wholeheartedly advocate trying to ridicule the ideology into oblivion. Something certainly needs done, and given the political and governmental forces in play around this that will keep the "layman" out with the only opportunity to help being appeal to your fellow humans, if this billboard is what someone wants to try out because they feel passionately about the situation, I'm all for it. If it helps make even a small dent in attendance to Catholic churches then the world is better off for it.

Also - the sign doesn't even accuse anyone of anything. It makes a factual statement (left) and pairs it with a strong suggestion. That you (and almost anyone else) were able to deduce what was meant in the pairing of the statements should tell you something.

Revoltingest said:

The think I've noticed in reading about clergy abuse of children is that
there's tremendous pressure upon the kids & parents to keep it quiet.
They should be made to feel more comfortable reporting it, & that this
is necessary to protect others. And of course the message should
apply to cops too, who have often been part of the problem.

If leaving the Church is the only message, that doesn't really stem
the predation on children....it only protects those who leave.

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If there was a significant departure from the Church it would make a louder and clearer point to them than any other method.

ADigitalArtist said:

This is another unhelpful statement.
In the US and abroad, the largest groups responsible for the most child abuse scandals are social workers by a country mile, and public schools. The solution is not to nuke these institutions, or to say that if you remain on in these institutions you're accomplices to the abuse. That's wildly inaccurate and will, as I said, only slow actual productive efforts to reform from outside and within.

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I feel there is some false equivocation going on here. Things like public schools and social workers are agreed to be useful institutions by the vast majority of the public - regardless beliefs held, so it makes sense for the public at large to push for their reform rather than demolition. The same cannot be said of the Catholic church.

A Vestigial Mote said:

Honestly, I feel we're talking about a situation in which offense is completely warranted. May as well try out emotionally slapping some people and see if it sticks.Given the circumstances, I wholeheartedly advocate trying to ridicule the ideology into oblivion. Something certainly needs done, and given the political and governmental forces in play around this that will keep the "layman" out with the only opportunity to help being appeal to your fellow humans, if this billboard is what someone wants to try out because they feel passionately about the situation, I'm all for it. If it helps make even a small dent in attendance to Catholic churches then the world is better off for it.

Also - the sign doesn't even accuse anyone of anything. It makes a factual statement (left) and pairs it with a strong suggestion. That you (and almost anyone else) were able to deduce what was meant in the pairing of the statements should tell you something.

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We're all willing to offend others at times.
But before posting a billboard, one should ask oneself....
Which is my goal?
- To offend.
- To offend, & also effect change for the better.
- To effect change for the better, even if the message offends.

I'd let the last one guide composition of the message.

Subduction Zone said:

If there was a significant departure from the Church it would make a louder and clearer point to them than any other method.

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I think that's highly unlikely.

How well do their billboards work at trying to get us to join
under promise of being loved, or the threat of being smited?
I've yet to be tempted.

Revoltingest said:

We're all willing to offend others at times.
But before posting a billboard, one should ask oneself....
Which is my goal?
- To offend.
- To offend, & also effect change for the better.
- To effect change for the better, even if the message offends.

I'd let the last one guide composition of the message.

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Perhaps the writers of that message felt the same. The message will offend some, but the goal is to effect change for the better..

ADigitalArtist said:

Because it's a 'leave the church or you're tacitly responsible for child abuse' argument.

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Agreed that that is the way it frames up the choices... but I am also in agreement that that is the state of affairs. Giving your money to the church is giving them the money to pay off settlements for the abuse cases, and money to move abusers within their organization, and cover things up as necessary. The damage is done, and there will be monetary reparations to be made in store for them. Not a penny of the money they gather from parishioners should even be able to be used for court costs, in my opinion. It's just wrong from every angle.

ADigitalArtist said:

As if there's no other option for reform than being 100% in or 100% out.

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It's the same sentiment used against the fur trade, honestly. Don't give them your money. Kick them where it really counts. It's not "there's no option", it's "show these dipsticks what's up." There aren't too many opportunities in which you can help smack down the bad guys by simply not doing something. This billboard is just trying to push people in that direction, to try and help put a strangle-hold on the church's funds. No funds, no payoffs, more cases coming to light and more justice being done.

ADigitalArtist said:

Plus the FFRF is using the kids as political leverage to enact their goal. It feels disingenuous and skeevy.

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They're using facts and current public perception. How many people do you think don't know what the billboard is implying? And if they don't, they can then ask around and get updated. The news needs spread - these guys aren't trustworthy. Sure they can reform, but as stated, the damage is already done to hundreds of people. It takes a long time to regain trust after a major blunder... as well it should. You can't just call out "But... reform!" and suddenly everything's hunky dory. Let these guys roast for a while. The whole organization deserves it.

Subduction Zone said:

Perhaps the writers of that message felt the same. The message will offend some, but the goal is to effect change for the better..

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Well, I disagree with them.

But don't tell them. I don't want to anger atheists.
You know what they are like.
(They might put up a billboard urging people to flee Revoltistan.)

Revoltingest said:

Well, I disagree with them.

But don't tell them. I don't want to anger atheists.
You know what they are like.
(They might put up a billboard urging people to flee Revoltistan.)

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I am going to have to ban you from having those sorts of feelings. Sorry about that.