Unrelenting quoting of scripture.

stvdv said:

Thanks. This is a good example why "unrelenting quoting of scripture" is not helpful. Humans don't know how Salvation comes, hence it's called believe.

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Spot-on. Our spherical friend, being a Hot-Prot of some sort, embraces the sola fide theology, and chooses to ignore the clear injunction in James. I, by contrast, coming from the Catholic tradition, have always understood faith and good works to be important in this life - and naturally I have the quotation to back that up.

As you say, this is a game anybody can play, to justify a variety of different stances.

exchemist said:

Spot-on. Our spherical friend, being a Hot-Prot of some sort, embraces the sola fide theology, and chooses to ignore the clear injunction in James. I, by contrast, coming from the Catholic tradition, have always understood faith and good works to be important in this life - and naturally I have the quotation to back that up.

As you say, this is a game anybody can play, to justify a variety of different stances.

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Glad you provided this verse. In the Baptist Church they always said "by faith alone", I didn't know this verse at the time, so could not reply with bible verse.

Although when I think of the Samaritan story the same message is also very clear. And the 2 Greatest Commandments make it abundantly clear IMO.

This problem I also saw in Hinduism. There they have "Service, Devotion, Wisdom". Jnani often declare Jnana is the highest, I don't believe that.

"Sola Fide Theology", means "by Faith alone" I read. "By Grace alone" makes more sense to me. What do you think?

stvdv said:

Glad you provided this verse. In the Baptist Church they always said "by faith alone", I didn't know this verse at the time, so could not reply with bible verse.

Although when I think of the Samaritan story the same message is also very clear. And the 2 Greatest Commandments make it abundantly clear IMO.

This problem I also saw in Hinduism. There they have "Service, Devotion, Wisdom". Jnani often declare Jnana is the highest, I don't believe that.

"Sola Fide Theology", means "by Faith alone" I read. "By Grace alone" makes more sense to me. What do you think?

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I'm not expert on the sola fide doctrine - it came from Luther, I think.To be honest, "grace" is also one of those concepts I have always struggled to make sense of, my Catholic catechesis many years ago notwithstanding.

exchemist said:

I'm not expert on the sola fide doctrine - it came from Luther, I think.To be honest, "grace" is also one of those concepts I have always struggled to make sense of, my Catholic catechesis many years ago notwithstanding.

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I never thought about these concepts before much. But now I am curious.

Using my common sense "sola fide" makes no sense. Excluding all "works" is not true if you need to have faith [having faith is also (hard) work].
[Sola fide - Wikipedia] = The doctrine of sola fide asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

"By Grace alone" makes more sense. Takes all do-er ship (works) out. It is even a bit more than "sola fide", even the "effort of faith" is excluded.
So that means it's not up to us at all. In a way I don't like that at all, because I like to keep control. But it seems more fair to me and more true "talking about belief systems"

"By Faith alone" implies that we humans think to know "how God planned Salvation; faith is needed", which gets close to blasphemy IMO.
"By Grace alone" this implies we humans do not know "how to get Salvation; what is needed". But then even "by Grace alone" can also be seen as blasphemy.

Okay, I start understanding verses like "The wise don't speak" more clearly now.

Just curious. You said "I struggled to make sense of it". You had a similar line of thinking, or did it not make sense from a different point of view?

exchemist said:

Except for James 2:14 onwards, of course, which says the contrary.

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It says NO SUCH THING. It says, "living FAITH saves, dead FAITH doesn't."

BilliardsBall said:

It says NO SUCH THING. It says, "living FAITH saves, dead FAITH doesn't."

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What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Woberts said:

I normally just skim over the posts like that.
They serve no other purpose other than saying "Muh Bible says so!"

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We all do.

Unveiled Artist said:

Yes. I am saying you are dividing faith when you split gods righteous works through you, from faith.

Like I said, faith is an action. It's god working through you. James says this repeated. The gospels doesn't need to always mention the word works to support James views.

If you don't see god working through you as part of that gift (using it) thats on your. Fundamentists aren't the majority nor so they overrule biblical interpretation.

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There are no verses that say "Don't divide faith", no verses that say "do not split God's righteous works from you".

There are no verses that say faith is "an action". Faith is a belief, a trust, a choice. You cannot "do faith". Faith is a belief that may lead to inaction or lack of inaction. "I have faith that God will help me, so I'll do nothing now to help myself." There, faith is inaction.

James doesn't ever say "Faith is God working through you."

stvdv said:

Thanks. This is a good example why "unrelenting quoting of scripture" is not helpful. Humans don't know how Salvation comes, hence it's called believe.

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Huh?!

The Bible is plain, simple, explicit--salvation comes through the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Man needs transformation to live in a utopia. Christ was sinless and died for all.

BilliardsBall said:

Huh?!

The Bible is plain, simple, explicit-.

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...as your "explanation" of James 2:14 so perfectly illustrates, I suppose.

@BilliardsBall

Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as believing in something that cannot be "seen" as true with conviction.

What is the logistics of believing something is true makes it true?

How does believing make something true without some sort of commitment, act, and conviction that livens it? (You cant have crop of salvation when you dont water it by gods righteousness)

How does faith save without act and conviction?

Can you believe something is true without action to support that conviction?

If so, how? When you live as a result of faith, what exactly does that life or works as a result of faith mean if it has nothing to do with your salvation; thus, nothing to do with your faith?

Not from a denomination
Not from people

Answer directly from scripure.

BilliardsBall said:

Huh?!

The Bible is plain, simple, explicit--salvation comes through the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Man needs transformation to live in a utopia. Christ was sinless and died for all.

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Dont think you get what he (we) are asking.

We know what saves you
We know who
We know why

HOW does faith and belief save you in and of itself?

How is your action and conviction separate from your salvation through faith and god?

BilliardsBall said:

There are no verses that say "Don't divide faith", no verses that say "do not split God's righteous works from you".

There are no verses that say faith is "an action". Faith is a belief, a trust, a choice. You cannot "do faith". Faith is a belief that may lead to inaction or lack of inaction. "I have faith that God will help me, so I'll do nothing now to help myself." There, faith is inaction.

James doesn't ever say "Faith is God working through you."

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I got this from a JW site. They dont believe in works/man either but they do believe works/god.

Faith is strengthened when a person acts on God’s promises and then sees the evidence of God’s blessing on what he has done.—See Psalm 106:9-12.

James 2:21-23. Billard, you really have to think about this and draw conclusions on your own.

That, and whose cross is it for you to carry?

If it is a gift, why are you carrying your own cross when jesus could have done it for you?

You gotta think on your own to draw conclusions of what god says. In english, conversations are not word for word. The bible was translated in english; so, the best way to understand faith, righteous works, christ, and grace is to listen directly to god and live it. There you will find matured salvation.

But everyone is maturing in christ differently. Some slower than others. Saying-Lord-Lord I have faith, for some people does the trick.
To me, how you are matured depends on those seeds, whether you want to water them, and whose cross are you carrying and want help carryng.

I assume it depends on how much service you want to offer god and which ones you wants to offer to himself while having faith in god at the same time.

You meaning People in general.

Couple things about works/god and salvation has to do with the cross you carry, the soil you have, the strength of your conviction, and serve by what you are told and by example. Living salvation isnt easy; but, to call faith, faith, I dont see any reason in scripture (if you can find it) of how salvation and god are split up in sections.

Everything is bsaed on faith: one foundation (faith alone is the foundation) but faith alone doesnt mature your faith into service. You are saved by acting your conviction not just the conviction itself.

Goes way beyond saying Lord-I trust you. Even the devil can do that.

stvdv said:

Thanks. This is a good example why "unrelenting quoting of scripture" is not helpful. Humans don't know how Salvation comes, hence it's called believe.

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BilliardsBall said:

Huh?! The Bible is plain, simple, explicit--salvation comes through the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Man needs transformation to live in a utopia. Christ was sinless and died for all.

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To think "Outside the Box" is very difficult for some people. To think "Outside your Religion" is even more difficult for some people

stvdv said:

To think "Outside the Box" is very difficult for some people. To think "Outside your Religion" is even more difficult for some people

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Not for me. I can even think outside of sanity.

Unveiled Artist said:

@BilliardsBall

Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as believing in something that cannot be "seen" as true with conviction.

What is the logistics of believing something is true makes it true?

How does believing make something true without some sort of commitment, act, and conviction that livens it? (You cant have crop of salvation when you dont water it by gods righteousness)

How does faith save without act and conviction?

Can you believe something is true without action to support that conviction?

If so, how? When you live as a result of faith, what exactly does that life or works as a result of faith mean if it has nothing to do with your salvation; thus, nothing to do with your faith?

Not from a denomination
Not from people

Answer directly from scripure.

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Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as believing in something that cannot be "seen" as true with conviction.
1) Hebrews 11 defines faith as something that is seen, called evidence. "Now faith is the evidence of things unseen."

What is the logistics of believing something is true makes it true?
2) The scripture says believing something makes it a powerful thing, but not, perhaps true, "Many ways seem right to a person but lead only to death."

How does believing make something true without some sort of commitment, act, and conviction that livens it? (You cant have crop of salvation when you dont water it by gods righteousness)
3) The Bible never says "believing something makes it true". The act you are seeking that backs the faith is the cross of Christ. There is no better act behind our faith.

How does faith save without act and conviction?
4) Faith is trust. If I trust a fireman to carry me out of a fire, my action is to stop fighting the fireman and saying, "I can save myself." Biblically, the word for trust means "to sit down, to rest upon," in the Greek.

Can you believe something is true without action to support that conviction?
5) Yes, I believe Trump is the President, even if my action was to vote for a different President.

If so, how? When you live as a result of faith, what exactly does that life or works as a result of faith mean if it has nothing to do with your salvation; thus, nothing to do with your faith?
6) You are living by faith in your righteous deeds. I'm living by faith in what Jesus did, therefore, biblically, I receive power and blessing.

Not from a denomination
Not from people

Answer directly from scripure

Unveiled Artist said:

Dont think you get what he (we) are asking.

We know what saves you
We know who
We know why

HOW does faith and belief save you in and of itself?

How is your action and conviction separate from your salvation through faith and god?

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Think about it differently:

Jesus saved everyone except those who refuse His free gift. If you stop fighting Him (inaction, not action, a ceasing of action) you are saved. If you prefer "running your own ship" and your sin (unrighteous action) to Jesus, you are lost.