Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?

AntonyBS said:

Hi jIi, I would offer we are all limited in power and ability, All power is of Allah and Allah's to give.

Knowledge in scriptures, does not guarantee knowledge of the Spirit given by Allah as Allah gives connection to that Spirit to whoever Allah chooses to give it to.

What is nonsense, is that we argue over our one God, Allah and as such we become ignorant.

Peace be with you.

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If we assume that everything is subject to change
This means that we are in a game of luck (wheel of luck)
Every time there is a Lord there and new laws
in principles
I took courses in creativity and innovation and it is absolutely clear that these things are for the development of human life and not for the development of God's life

good luck
GOD guide you and bless you

j1i said:

If you are a Great scientist, you will go to study in school with baby children
a c c d e f j
or
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

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At least you can count seven!

I prefer not to babble as a baby, but you should feel free to babble as babies babble.

It is not seemly and befitting for one who claims allegiance to Allah.

“And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

Surah Al-'Ankabut [29:46]

siti said:

My argument is that there is ONLY Islamic tradition to attest to Muhammad's status as Messenger of God. The Qur'an "in its entirety" is a product of Islamic tradition so I think it behooves anyone investigating to ask how the same Islamic tradition suggests that the revelation came about. And it turns out that the very second person (after his wife) that Muhammad went to for advice after his supernatural experience was a cousin who just happened to be a Christian scribe or copyist. Who better to teach him about Moses and Joseph etc? But no - you insist - the Prophet was illiterate - he could only have got it by divine revelation! And you call my argument "absurd"?

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While we’re on the topic of absurdity let’s more closely consider your theory that you appear to have gleaned and extrapolated from just one Hadith. Of all the testimonies from all who knew Muhammad find me one Hadith that supports your theory. Then find a reputable scholar that supports it.

Here are three Hadith that strongly suggest Muhammad didn’t receive His message from a Christian scribe but received it from an Angel Gabriel as He claimed.

Ibn 'Abbas in the explanation of the Statement of Allah. 'Move not your tongue concerning (the Quran) to make haste therewith." (75.16) Said "Allah's Apostle used to bear the revelation with great trouble and used to move his lips (quickly) with the Inspiration." Ibn 'Abbas moved his lips saying, "I am moving my lips in front of you as Allah's Apostle used to move his." Said moved his lips saying: "I am moving my lips, as I saw Ibn 'Abbas moving his." Ibn 'Abbas added, "So Allah revealed 'Move not your tongue concerning (the Qur'an) to make haste therewith. It is for us to collect it and to give you (O Muhammad) the ability to recite it (the Qur'an) (75.16-17) which means that Allah will make him (the Prophet ) remember the portion of the Qur'an which was revealed at that time by heart and recite it. The Statement of Allah: And 'When we have recited it to you (O Muhammad through Gabriel) then you follow its (Qur'an) recital' (75.18) means 'listen to it and be silent.' Then it is for Us (Allah) to make It clear to you' (75.19) means 'Then it is (for Allah) to make you recite it (and its meaning will be clear by itself through your tongue). Afterwards, Allah's Apostle used to listen to Gabriel whenever he came and after his departure he used to recite it as Gabriel had recited it."

Jabir bin Abdullah Al-Ansari:
“While talking about the period of pause in revelation, reported the speech of the Prophet (saw), "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel, who had visited me at the cave of Hira, sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got scared of him and came back and said, 'Wrap me (in blankets).' And then Allah (swt) revealed the following Holy Verses (of the Quran): 'O you (Muhammad [saw]) enveloped (in garments)! Arise and warn... (up to) ...and keep away from Ar-Rujz (the idols)!' (V.74:1-5) After this, the revelation started coming strongly and frequently in succession one after the other."

A’isha (the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Apostle "O Allah's Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Apostle replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes ' off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says." 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet being inspired Divinely on a very cold day and noticed the Sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over).

adrian009 said:

This is my point though. The reason that Muslims believe the gospels are corrupted is because it appears to conflict with what the Qur'an says. The Quran at no point indicates the gospels were corrupted. The Ulama have assumed they must be corrupted as a way of explaining away the apparent contradictions with the Quran.

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The Quraan does indicate that the people of the scripture has changed and altered their books as I quoted. You may be right that the Ulama say one of these is the bible and does make a lot of sense. If the Quraan says that there is an Injeel revealed to prohet Jesus peace be upon him and we have already established that Jesus peace be upon him came with the same message. Than the question is why there are a lot of major differences. The only explanation that I would accept is that the bible is not the Injeel.

adrian009 said:

What are some of the main points of difference?

I explored this in another thread recently.

What are the Key Theological Differences between Islam and Christianity Regarding Concepts of God

In summary:
The divinity of Christ
The Trinity
The Sonship of Christ
Salvation
The Resurrection
The crucifixion

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You have listed the main ones.

Another is that in the Quraan prophets are examples to follow, in the bible there are twisted stories about some prophets (which of course can't be true) that one would question if they are men of God.

adrian009 said:

None of these verses indicate the gospels have been corrupted and can be interpreted in other ways.
Muslims need to ask themselves why God would guide His people through Christ and leave them bereft of His teachings by providing a false gospel. It doesn't make any sense.

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God didn't provide a false gospel. It is people who tempered with it adding something that didn't exist like the trinity for instance.

As I already have stated that Islam came to us through the progressive revelations (torah injeel and Quraan). If you follow the last revelation, than you are following all the revelations. By following the Quraan, I am also following Torah and Injeel.

5: 48

And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

Criterion means something that differentiates between the true and the wrong. Of course you may say that is an interpretation.

For me I can see that the Quraan is referring to the bible that it was corrupted but you say it is interpretations of the Ulama. Even if it were interpretation of the Ulama, should I reject it? For me when I read the bible it doesn't qualify for me to be the Word of God hence I can conclude that it is not the Injeel and the verses in the Quraan does refer to that.

Of course you are free to have your own opinion.

adrian009 said:

4:157

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.


The verse you quoted above can be interpreted metaphorically rather than literally. For example, they killed Him but they didn't kill His Spirit.

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Look at the part I highlighted in red. When they said we killed Jesus peace be upon him were they speaking metaphorically? In the Arabic language if you go on to say something and than denied it, than you are denying all which has come before unless you specify which is true. I mean the Quraan states that they wanted to kill him (of course not metaphorically) and than the Quraan says that didn't happen (they did not kill him). This means they did not kill him literally.

AntonyBS said:

If so, if Jesus did not die in the flesh. Where is the body and can science support the answer?

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4: 157 And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

4:158 Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

I don't believe science can explain miracles "????"

Why would I believe it to be true? There are many reasons that led me to believe without a doubt that the Quraan is the Word of God revealed to our last prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

Sabour said:

4: 157 And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

4:158 Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

I don't believe science can explain miracles "????"

Why would I believe it to be true? There are many reasons that led me to believe without a doubt that the Quraan is the Word of God revealed to our last prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

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When I read that Passage I read that they did not Kill Christ. You can not Kill the Spirit from God.

When I first started looking for God, I had in my heart there was only One God.

I first found Muhammad when reading about the Baha'i Revelation. I then read the Koran. It was logical to me that the One God had many Messengers with many Names.

I see this life is more than flesh and I personally think this life is the illusion. Our true existence is in our spiritual state.

I see all the Messengers, who are one in the Holy Spirit, exist in Gods Kingdom. None of them have been killed. We are born when we accept their Message and live the life they have instructed.

Peace be with you

Sabour said:

Another is that in the Quraan prophets are examples to follow, in the bible there are twisted stories about some prophets (which of course can't be true) that one would question if they are men of God.

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I see that God gives us many tests to overcome, I liked this passage from the Quran;

"And unto thee [O Prophet] have We vouchsafed this divine writ, setting forth the truth, confirming the truth of whatever there still remains of earlier revelations and determining what is true therein. Judge, then, between the followers of earlier revelation in accordance with what God has bestowed from on high, and do not follow their errant views, forsaking the truth that has come unto thee. Unto every one of you have We appointed a [different] law and way of life. And if God had so willed, He could surely have made you all one single community: but [He willed it otherwise] in order to test you by means of what He has vouchsafed unto, you. Vie, then, with one another in doing good works! Unto God you all must return; and then He will make you truly understand all that on which you were wont to differ." 5:48

I noticed it is Allah that has given us a different Law and a different life as a test to us.

Thus if we, of all Faiths, all do good works, then as promissed the truth becomes plain to us.

Words are a barrier.

Peace be with you.

adrian009 said:

At least you can count seven!

I prefer not to babble as a baby, but you should feel free to babble as babies babble.

It is not seemly and befitting for one who claims allegiance to Allah.

“And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

Surah Al-'Ankabut [29:46]

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Yes, the Lord is one, from Adam to this day, this has not changed
Christianity claimed the Trinity
This verse confirms that Muhammad's message is complementary to the message of Christianity and Judaism, which prevails over them


And that the Lord is one and means that the Lord is one and not a Trinitarian like the original Christianity of the religion of Monotheism as it is in the Gospel of Barnabas
Who says that Christ is not a Trinity
Jesus and Moses all love Muhammad and know his coming

j1i said:

Yes, the Lord is one, from Adam to this day, this has not changed
Christianity claimed the Trinity
This verse confirms that Muhammad's message is complementary to the message of Christianity and Judaism, which prevails over them


And that the Lord is one and means that the Lord is one and not a Trinitarian like the original Christianity of the religion of Monotheism as it is in the Gospel of Barnabas
Who says that Christ is not a Trinity
Jesus and Moses all love Muhammad and know his coming

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Of course the Christian West prevails over the Islamic world.

Yasir Qadhi is an American Muslim Scholar of Pakistani descent provides informed, balanced and easy to understand commentary on the rise and fall of the Muslim Ummah (community).


In regards socioeconomic development, human rights and technology the Christian West excels the Islamic world.

In regards the trinity, there is no mention of this word in the bible.

adrian009 said:

Of course the Christian West prevails over the Islamic world.

Yasir Qadhi is an American Muslim Scholar of Pakistani descent provides informed, balanced and easy to understand commentary on the rise and fall of the Muslim Ummah (community).

In regards socioeconomic development, human rights and technology the Christian West excels the Islamic world.

In regards the trinity, there is no mention of this word in the bible.

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Oops, there is no evidence that Christian West prevails over the Muslim world.
Christianity uses its military power for hegemony
Occupation for centuries

The words of an American Muslim scholar
I think this is talk, based on the conventional understanding
I want to tell you that the rules of dynamism do not play like this
I am not a traditional person who has borrowed ideas from the principle of human numbers
We deal with God Almighty
Weak Muslims because of sins and material desires

After repentance, Muslims will become strong
Jesus loves Muslims because they are the only ones who worship God correctly
God will push him to destroy lying on earth
And Jesus eagerly to be with the Muslims and follow the Prophet Muhammad

adrian009 said:

Of course the Christian West prevails over the Islamic world.

Yasir Qadhi is an American Muslim Scholar of Pakistani descent provides informed, balanced and easy to understand commentary on the rise and fall of the Muslim Ummah (community).

In regards socioeconomic development, human rights and technology the Christian West excels the Islamic world.

In regards the trinity, there is no mention of this word in the bible.

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His words are funny
I do not trust this
Not all Muslims are intelligent or have high insight
Not all Muslims are Muslims, like the Baha'is

Sabour said:

4: 157 And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

4:158 Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

I don't believe science can explain miracles "????"

Why would I believe it to be true? There are many reasons that led me to believe without a doubt that the Quraan is the Word of God revealed to our last prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

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God bless you
Hear me, brother
This wants to change the Islamic religion
The only Baha'is who Accept and agree the crucifixion of Christ
Therefore, Christianity fosters the Bahá'í Faith and favors it

Since the past they satan trying to distort Islam in ways that are dishonest
he use Christianity a tool
Be careful

adrian009 said:

Of course the Christian West prevails over the Islamic world.

Yasir Qadhi is an American Muslim Scholar of Pakistani descent provides informed, balanced and easy to understand commentary on the rise and fall of the Muslim Ummah (community).

In regards socioeconomic development, human rights and technology the Christian West excels the Islamic world.

In regards the trinity, there is no mention of this word in the bible.

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The West may dominate industrial and perhaps economic
But in terms of culture is definitely wrong
Otherwise, the mosques are closed and adultery and vice become

It is not possible to wipe out the culture of a whole nation that has a religion like Islam ...

Sabour said:

The Quraan does indicate that the people of the scripture has changed and altered their books as I quoted. You may be right that the Ulama say one of these is the bible and does make a lot of sense. If the Quraan says that there is an Injeel revealed to prohet Jesus peace be upon him and we have already established that Jesus peace be upon him came with the same message. Than the question is why there are a lot of major differences. The only explanation that I would accept is that the bible is not the Injeel.

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The main problem for Islam are the Ulama. That is why Islam went into a long slow decline after the Islamic Golden age whereas the West progressed. Once the Islamic world was the most advanced. Now progress is slowed and people are not free to have their own thoughts and beliefs.

Of all the historic facts, the crucifixion of Christ is widely accepted as true by most scholars.

Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia

The idea that the gospels are so corrupted makes as much sense to Christians as if I were to tell you the Qur'an was swapped or had most of its verses altered and you don't have the real Qur'an anymore. When I hear Islamic apologists begin to explain how the gospel became corrupted they just seem to demonstrate their lack of basic knowledge about both the bible and history.

The problem you have is explaining why almost every book in the NT refers to Christ's crucifixion and then the historic evidence.

Sabour said:

You have listed the main ones.

Another is that in the Quraan prophets are examples to follow, in the bible there are twisted stories about some prophets (which of course can't be true) that one would question if they are men of God.

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It is good we agree on most of the key differences. I'm not too sure what you are referring to when you mention twisted stories about some of the prophets. Do mean stories that don't agree with the Qur'an's version of events?

Sabour said:

God didn't provide a false gospel. It is people who tempered with it adding something that didn't exist like the trinity for instance.

As I already have stated that Islam came to us through the progressive revelations (torah injeel and Quraan). If you follow the last revelation, than you are following all the revelations. By following the Quraan, I am also following Torah and Injeel.

5: 48

And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

Criterion means something that differentiates between the true and the wrong. Of course you may say that is an interpretation.

For me I can see that the Quraan is referring to the bible that it was corrupted but you say it is interpretations of the Ulama. Even if it were interpretation of the Ulama, should I reject it? For me when I read the bible it doesn't qualify for me to be the Word of God hence I can conclude that it is not the Injeel and the verses in the Quraan does refer to that.

Of course you are free to have your own opinion.

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Of course we both have our own opinions and we interpret the verses we both believe to be from God differently. Perhaps a crucial difference between us is I'm free to have a different interpretation from most Muslim. I can examine the facts and make statements contrary to mainstream Islamic view. I think when you look at a verse for long enough and all the other Muslims believe this is what the verse means, it is hard to see it any other way. I do not see any verse in the Qur'an that refers to the version of the gospel that was around in Muhammad's lifetime as being corrupt. What you see when you read the verses are centuries of being conditioned to see those verses a particular way because that is your culture.

Sabour said:

Look at the part I highlighted in red. When they said we killed Jesus peace be upon him were they speaking metaphorically? In the Arabic language if you go on to say something and than denied it, than you are denying all which has come before unless you specify which is true. I mean the Quraan states that they wanted to kill him (of course not metaphorically) and than the Quraan says that didn't happen (they did not kill him). This means they did not kill him literally.

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The verse you highlighted in red does sound literal because that's literally what happened. The Roman's did what Roman's do well and executed by crucifixion. Of course they did not crucify Christ's soul and His spirit lives on. But I suppose Muslims have believed for over a thousand years what that verse means. Tradition is a powerful determinant as to how we think whether we are Muslim or Christian.

j1i said:

The West may dominate industrial and perhaps economic
But in terms of culture is definitely wrong
Otherwise, the mosques are closed and adultery and vice become

It is not possible to wipe out the culture of a whole nation that has a religion like Islam ...

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It is about a change of heart and humility, not wiping culture or people out.

Peace be with you always.

j1i said:

Oops, there is no evidence that Christian West prevails over the Muslim world.
Christianity uses its military power for hegemony
Occupation for centuries

The words of an American Muslim scholar
I think this is talk, based on the conventional understanding
I want to tell you that the rules of dynamism do not play like this
I am not a traditional person who has borrowed ideas from the principle of human numbers
We deal with God Almighty
Weak Muslims because of sins and material desires

After repentance, Muslims will become strong
Jesus loves Muslims because they are the only ones who worship God correctly
God will push him to destroy lying on earth
And Jesus eagerly to be with the Muslims and follow the Prophet Muhammad

Click to expand...

Lets look at History and how it has unfolded, we are supposed to learn from our mistakes.

Consider the Jews still wait for the victory promised to them?

Consider the Christians still wait for the victory promised to them?

Thus now consider the Muslims still wait for the victory promised to them?

Then Consider, as I also have to consider, that the Bab and Baha'u'llah have offered that victory!

Interesting indeed. The born again passage in the Bible is ringing true!

Peace be with you an all

Hey @AntonyBS - its taken me a while to catch on - God I'm slow - well I suppose it takes a while for a new manifestation to become apparent! G'day cobber! How's the weather in Queensland - it is Queensland isn't it? We missed you - but looks like you were here all the time!

j1i said:

I wrote this as an expected example of the image of chaos
Not ridicule and mockery

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Are you sure? We wouldn't want a faithful Muslim accused of mocking the Prophet - that could end very badly. Well I'm happy that that was not your intention. Neither is it mine. But my point was how can you really tell the difference between Muhammad, and, for example, Jesus and Baha'u'llah - in all cases we really only have (what is allegedly) their word for it in regard to the direct communications they claim to have received from God. So whilst the Baha'is here are busy trying to show that Muhammad was the same as the rest of the Manifestations in some important respects which prove he too was a Messenger of God, your task in this thread must surely be to show how he was profoundly different and therefore Messenger of God of greater import than any other and to the exception of any who claim to have come after him. It would be really great if you had evidence rather than mere statements of faith.

siti said:

Hey @AntonyBS - its taken me a while to catch on - God I'm slow - well I suppose it takes a while for a new manifestation to become apparent! G'day cobber! How's the weather in Queensland - it is Queensland isn't it? We missed you - but looks like you were here all the time!

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Hello siti good to hear from you. I was away for quite some time and became a new me

I enjoy your challenging posts. This forum teaches us a lot.

Peace be with you