Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Was there one in the first place?i think you've missed the entire idea of the post
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Life's "expiry date" of the Jewish religion
- Thread starter Segev Moran
- Start date
Segev Moran
Well-Known Member
Lol.
Yes. The question was if Someone claims his religion predicts A, and A doesn't happen, does it render the religion obsolete?
As for your statement regarding the time humans live, it is irrelvant to the question as we have no genuine way of knowing whther or not a specific religion is true or not.
God might be real.
NO ONE knows.
But if I make a claim that God said that A will happen, and A doesn't happen, wouldn't you say it renders God as a false idea?
There is nothing in Torah that says the moshiach (“messiah”) must come by year 6000 of creation of man. But many speculate about the parallel between six thousand year and six days of creation (“a thousand years is as a day to the L-rd”, see Psalm 90). But that is only speculation and nothing more. Torah is quite clear that no one can calculate when the moshiach will come and that we are warned not to attempt to do so. There are many sound reasons to not try to do so. Our focus is being ready and to know and expect it will come. This is why you don’t see rows of Jewish “end time” prophecy books like Christians create.
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Tumah
Veteran Member
The Haredi ones.Cool
Who is your Rabbi?
Can you source any of those lectures. I mean, books have been written on this topic for almost a thousand years.
Jewish source texts.
There is not a single Jewish authority who claims to know when the date of b'itah is.
You are right, I was mistaken to use the word Date.
What i've meant is that they all claim the signs of the end are already upon us and we are facing the final steps.
i didn't mean date in the sense of July 6th, 2020 or something like that.[/quote]
This is not news.
This is false. There is no authority who believes that the Messiah has to come by the year 6000. There are authorities that believe he has to come before the year 6000.
But the whole 6000 year thing is just one opinion. There's another opinion that the world is something like 13,000 years old. I think there's another one that says 28,000 or something like that. One opinion based on a manuscript from Russia was found to be something like 15 billion years. These are not deal breakers.
I don't see why a Midrash about the wall that is not an essential cornerstone of the religion should render the religion false.
I doubt that. We'd probably just say that nature changed from the time of the Talmud. An explanation brought elsewhere for other things.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
No, they are not "old legends".
As far as Messianic predictions, here:
The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)
For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3–7)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvoth
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)
Tumah
Veteran Member
These are all just discussing the various prophecies listed in Jewish sources. And Hidabroot is a kiruv site, not a kaballah site.
Segev Moran
Well-Known Member
Lol. I've Who is... not what is
To put it in another phrasing..
When you have a dilemma regarding your "Halachot", who do you go to?
I've posted several examples in one of my replies here.
Just check the site "הדברות"
they have plenty there and almost any site that deals with the Jewish religion (hebrew sites)
Hazal incdlued? or just the Pshat?
Have you even searched?
Whats the difference????
Obviously.
The entire Jewish (or any other) religion is just an opinion.
This doesn't change the fact that recently many share the opinion that the time is closing in.
yeah, there are thousand of ideas. so far, most of them are not in a match to our reality. that has nothing to do with what i asked in the OP.
Lol. probably.
I assume that even if aliens will land here showing us how they created humans, all religions will find some made up explanation how it fits to their beliefs
Segev Moran
Well-Known Member
You are mistaken. they clearly state the messiah is close.
And Zamir cohen is one of the more popular Rabbi for Jewish studies today.
Tumah
Veteran Member
To my Rabbi. But my Rabbi is not a leader of the Jewish people, he's one Rabbi with a small following. As opposed to Rav Steinman zt"l whom you may have heard of in the past year who was considered a leader of the nation.Lol. I've Who is... not what is
To put it in another phrasing..
When you have a dilemma regarding your "Halachot", who do you go to?
There are many Jewish sites. If you know of one that says that it was forbidden to discuss the Messiah's coming despite it being discussed continuously in Jewish texts spanning the past 1,500 years, then I'd be very happy to see it.
Chazal give us pshat too.
I rely on the past 20 years of study in Charedi institutions. There are a number of Rishonim who have tried to calculate dates for the Messiah (including Rashi) and all of them have passed.
The 6,000 date is based on a Talmudic passage that says שית אלפי שנה הוי עלמא וחד חרוב. According to the understanding you have been talking about, in the year 6,000 the world gets destroyed, which is a little too late for the Messiah to come.
I understand. But just because many may share the opinion that the time is closing in, doesn't mean that if the confluence of events that appear to be manifestations of Biblical and Midrashic prophecies doesn't lead to the Messiah coming, that doesn't mean that it will be over for Judaism. This is not the first time it appeared that way. No less than Rabbi Akiva himself thought the Messianic Age was imminent and that was 1,500 years ago.
It does, because my point was that you've latched on to one opinion and said that if this opinion doesn't happen, Judaism is out. I'm showing you that we still have a number of other choices if this opinion doesn't pan out.
The possibility of aliens is discussed in an 18th century text called Sefer Habris.Lol. probably.
I assume that even if aliens will land here showing us how they created humans, all religions will find some made up explanation how it fits to their beliefs
Tumah
Veteran Member
I didn't watch the entirety of all the videos, just a few minutes to see the topic. But none of them are giving a date for the Messiah. At most they are discussing various prophecies and how events today seem to indicate that the Messiah is imminent.
In kiruv circles.
Segev Moran
Well-Known Member
Who also talked btw about the near god and magog.
I've meant the Tora itself and not Pirushim
How willing are you to have a discussion with me about the bible? (in private of course)
I am intrigued about it and am always thrilled to meet new people who posses some knowledge about it.
Where did i say that???
I never said the world is destroyed.
I said the end of life as we know it"
"The end of the prophecy presents a precise and a very detailed of the life after the final war"
Thanks for the input
hehe
Thanks. I'll check it out.
Can you say in a nut shell what it reads?
Tumah
Veteran Member
I'm sure he did.
Without the mefarshim, how can you get the correct pshat?
If your mother is Jewish, I'm 100% up for it.
You didn't say it, I said it. The 6,000 year concept is that the world exists for 6000 years and is destroyed for 1,000. So the Messiah can't come at the year 6,000 because that's too late - the world is meant to be destroyed at that point.
Whoever said that quote was being very irresponsible. You can see from the link here, that almost every detail of the Messianic Age and it's related topics is debated.
It's meant as a primer to kaballah by teaching science (or at least, the science of three centuries ago) to the Torah student who wouldn't otherwise know these things. About aliens, he basically says that there's no reason why there can't be intelligent life on other planets, although he does not believe that they would have free-will.
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Segev Moran
Well-Known Member
Its not as simple as it dounds.
What i usually do is search for occurrences of a word in the entire Tora and check what it means in its context to the verses.
I use the Pirushim just as another interpretation to things.
Lol. Both parents are
You are wrong.
It means that the 7th milennia we will live in a reality that is different to what we know today.
It actually speaks of an uthopic word.
Read the verse in Yehezkel. it cannot be interpreted in any other way.
It speaks of a world without wars, pain and suffering where everybody knows for a fact about the existence of God.
not destroyed rather transformed.
That sums it up quite well i would say
Tumah
Veteran Member
I don't think there are any meforshim that interpret words in a way that doesn't fit with the meaning of the word unless there is an extenuating circumstance.
Then I'm available.Lol. Both parents are
You are conflating two different things. The Messianic Era is meant to come before the 7th millennium and last until the end of the 7th millennium. At the end of the 7th millennium, the world return to tohu v'vohu for 1,000 years. At the end of the 8th millennium, the world is recreated as Olam Ha'Bah. That's how that opinion works.
Segev Moran
Well-Known Member
So also by this interpretation, it is transformed... not destroyed
Tumah
Veteran Member
The phrase is "אמר רב קטינא שית אלפי שני הוי עלמא וחד חרוב". The word "חרוב" means "destroyed", like "נחרב". Destruction is a type of transformation maybe, but the word means destroyed.So also by this interpretation, it is transformed... not destroyed