Religious Faith - Inclusive or exclusive of other Faiths?

adrian009 said:

Does your faith or worldview have a similar outlook to some evangelical Christians who view themselves as right and everyone else wrong?

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I find that people who want, no, NEED that kind of attitude have identity issues and so they pick something amazingly shallow, like group name. They rarely if ever actually follow Jesus' teachings, preferring Paul or John or Moses. Supremacy of any sort is a result of feelings of inadequacy, deserved or otherwise. This is a conversation I wrote in a book that's not yet out (hopefully soon, waiting on the cover artist):

“How practical,” El noted with a smirk.

“There are many ways, Lord of Canaan.”

El frowned momentarily. “We believe there is only one.”

Vishnu chuckled. “Have You ever read a map, Oh, El?” He asked playfully. “Do Your cities have only one way in or out? Even in the age of walled cities, were there not multiple gates? To limit Yourself to a single door means the fire will surely burn all inside. Before the war at Kurukshetra, the Pandavas were invited to stay in a house of wax with only one exit. Fortunately, they were warned that this was a trick and they dug a tunnel in the floor and escaped as the Kauravas, their cousins, let loose a volley of fire upon them. In this, We learn that multiple ways are best, even if one must crawl through the dirt to survive. Have We not heard the saying, ‘When God closes a door, He opens a window’?”

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Limiting oneself to a single "truth" limits one's perspective on reality. No path thus far has been able to deal with every facet of life in this universe, at least, as far as I know, but that's my point: we can't know everything, so teaming up with people who are different is the only way (or not) to get a look at a bigger picture.

The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you."

Epic Beard Man said:

I think that is an aspect I greatly respect about Islam-Submission to the will of God.

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Yes, for all the hate Islam gets, it's almost like "submitting to God" is the most offensive part for others in the Abrahamic faiths. I'm sure there's some Freudian nonsense going on there.

Vinayaka said:

Being inclusive is challenging to practice with people who hold exclusive beliefs. For example, they often won't even show up at interfaith gatherings.

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It tells me their faith is as fragile as thin glass.

LuisDantas said:

A faith that does not realize the need to reach towards others and at least attempt to understand and communicate with them is not much of a faith, IMO.

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I mean, God told ME to learn from others. It's been very helpful since my own upbringing has been revealed to be less than honest about how things work.

stvdv said:

Sai Baba has been very clear in His discourses "Evangelizing is the cause the people become atheists". But to be clear, He also said that "God only asks of us to respect His Creation; so all paths are equally good choice to reach this, if one keeps the focus on the underlying Love & Respect principle".

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Yes, the Way is what is important. The person talking about it is irrelevant.

stvdv said:

Sai Baba has been very clear in His discourses "Evangelizing is the cause the people become atheists". But to be clear, He also said that "God only asks of us to respect His Creation; so all paths are equally good choice to reach this, if one keeps the focus on the underlying Love & Respect principle".

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Kelly of the Phoenix said:

Yes, the Way is what is important. The person talking about it is irrelevant.

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I fully agree.

And I get the message, no need to mention Sai Baba's name also. Actually that was one of the last things He said before dying "Just help others, no need to mention My Name". When I quote things I like to give reference [otherwise others might think I invented it]. But when thinking about it, there is nothing we got from ourselves. Everything we know we got from others somewhere in the past [even if heard/seen in a dream or meditation or even our own thoughts are happening because of experiences before].

This whole copyright thing is a big illusion if I really think about it from this viewpoint. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

whirlingmerc said:

There are overlapping areas of agreement but regarding some truths everyone is a bit exclusive
Everyone also makes some mistakes and no fallen person is perfect in this life

The apostles said 'Jesus is the name given by which man can be saved'
conservative reformed western orthodox evangelical

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The apostles taught their fellow Jews and then to a wider Greco-Roman audience. The religions within the Roman empire outside of Judaism were largely pagan with multiple gods. There was no teaching to other world religions such as Buddhists and Hindus recorded at that early stage. Islam wouldn't emerge until nearly 600 years later. An essential aspect of the teachings of Judaism was the oneness of God and not to worship other gods and their idols. This historic context seems to me important in understanding the apostles teachings about salvation.

Brickjectivity said:

I enjoyed hearing your story. In answer I think there is not one fits-all answer.

This is John's gospel which opens with discussion of the Logos and without changing its theme moves to a speech to Nicodemus. In it Jesus opposes Nicodemus assumptions about the way. When reading John 14 keep in mind that John carefully sets up a worldview in which the way is taken out of the control of the old teacher-student mouth to mouth process. Therefore when Jesus in John 14 says it is not him but the Father speaking through him and then that he is the way he refers back to the theme of the gospel of John. Instead of judgement by words: judgement by light, instead of one way through a confined set of correct teachers: a way that comes on its own and through channels one might not expect. As Jesus says to Nicodemus its like the wind. Examples from Jewish scripture also apply. Does the tabernacle follow Moses through the desert? No, but he must follow it. Can he store extra manna into jars in case of lack? No, and he must depend upon fresh manna. The theme is unchanged by Jesus who merely expands where the tabernacle can go and the manna fall. It is John 4 which recounts the tale of the Samaritan woman at the well, and Jesus tells her the time had come when true fellowship would not be limited to the Jews. All of this is a theme in John. His point is not to limit spirituality to those who follow correct creeds. That is the old method which he is overturning.

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I appreciate your insights into the gospel of John. Its always refreshing to hear Christians actual reflect on what their sacred texts mean rather than thoughtlessly parroting something their church teaches.

I think fundamentalism is doomed and very exclusive.

Any condemnational religion that demands submission is doomed to be a failure. And not for condemning evil, but for condemning people who have no faith or belief in such religions.

adrian009 said:

The apostles taught their fellow Jews and then to a wider Greco-Roman audience. The religions within the Roman empire outside of Judaism were largely pagan with multiple gods. There was no teaching to other world religions such as Buddhists and Hindus recorded at that early stage. Islam wouldn't emerge until nearly 600 years later. An essential aspect of the teachings of Judaism was the oneness of God and not to worship other gods and their idols. This historic context seems to me important in understanding the apostles teachings about salvation.

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It's true that the apostles did not speak directly to these world religions.... although by tradition Thomas went to India so there would have been interaction with Hindus

Indirectly, the ideas about Jesus and the content would stand

adrian009 said:

To what extent should we be inclusive or exclusive towards peoples of other faiths?

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are you sure it is us?.....drawing the line

won't God and heaven.....separate the goats from the sheep

Thief said:

are you sure it is us?.....drawing the line

won't God and heaven.....separate the goats from the sheep

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Exactly, it is for God, not man to judge.

whirlingmerc said:

It's true that the apostles did not speak directly to these world religions.... although by tradition Thomas went to India so there would have been interaction with Hindus

Indirectly, the ideas about Jesus and the content would stand

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Its a major leap to assume the apostles would have seen the major world religions in a similar light to paganism.

John 10:19 would seem more relevant IMHO....

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

It is for every faithful follower of Christ to prayerfully consider in his heart what scripture is really saying.

@adrian009.....taking the Bible's account in the broad picture, it appears as if God has only spoken to those who were interested in doing his will. In the early part of man's history, God revealed himself only to those who were prepared to follow his instructions.

e.g. pre-Christian men of faith like Noah, Job and Abraham all had outstanding records of faithful obedience to the only true God who existed at that time. False worship surfaced after the flood, with the deification of Nimrod. False worship then spread to the most distant parts of the earth when God confused the language at Babel and other deities began to be worshipped in Nimrod's image. Pagan trinities began to be modeled after Nimrod, his wife/mother Semiramis, and Tammuz.


Trinities of gods are found throughout non-Christian religions.



Since Nimrod was deified, his mother, Semiramis became known as "the Mother of God" giving rise to Christendom's trinity and the Catholic Church's Madonna and child.



I am sure that God was not responsible for these religions springing up in the world. Since his law stated quite succinctly in the first of the Ten Commandments...."You will have no other gods but me".

Since God stated that his 'people' would be the descendants of Abraham through Isaac, (not Ishmael,) I believe that those whose faith originates in Islam, cannot be the people of the true God.....but I believe that they are in line for the blessing that God promised through his faithful "friend" Abraham.

God was to fulfill his promise to Abraham, to bless mankind through the one he would send as a savior of his people through Abraham's descendants....so it seems as if people of all races were to benefit from his promises. But what were the qualifications to receive that blessing? Did it mean that they could also be practicers of religious beliefs that did not originate from the true God? The Bible tells us that in order to become an acceptable worshipper of the true God in Bible times, one had to come into God's nation and abide by his laws and become "brothers" with his chosen people. They had to leave their false religious beliefs behind because there was one faith and one set of laws....and all had to subscribe to it. “One law will apply for the native and for the foreigner who is residing among you.” (Exodus 12:49)

That law included no toleration of the worship of other gods....

“You must not have any other god but me.
4 “You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. 5 You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods." (Exodus 20:3-5)

So those who worshipped other gods had to leave that worship behind if they took up the worship of Israel's God YHWH. Does Islam promote the worship of YHWH?......Is Allah YHWH?

Jesus gave us clues to figure out who are acceptable to God and who are not.

In his parable of the 'sheep and the goats', Jesus, as God's appointed judge, tells us who are the ones he judges to be "sheep" and who he judges to be "goats"....the "sheep" are in line for everlasting life....but the goats are condemned to everlasting death. (Matthew 25:31-34) What is the criteria to qualify for life?

Jesus said...."For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably; 36 naked and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’"

So action is required on our part...but toward whom? There are three parties in this scenario.....Jesus.....his "brothers" and the "sheep". So we have to identify Jesus' "brothers" and offer them our assistance.

Who are Jesus' brothers? And what happens if we have not offered assistance to them?

"Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels........‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of these least ones, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”

Because the outcome is so serious, it seems to me as if we each have a bit of investigating to do. The 'sheep' and the 'goats' in this parable don't seem to be aware that they are supporting, or failing to support, Christ's brothers. So, how do we know?......

Obviously just calling yourself a Christian is not enough because come the judgment time, those who claim Jesus as their "Lord" are completely rejected by him. (Matthew 7:21-23) That is not what any of us would want to hear from the judge of all the earth...is it?

Hi @Deeje ,

Thank you for your considered response to this thread. In regards the main theme of the OP you have presented the God of the bible as being more of an exclusive God rather than inclusive.

Deeje said:

@adrian009.....taking the Bible's account in the broad picture, it appears as if God has only spoken to those who were interested in doing his will. In the early part of man's history, God revealed himself only to those who were prepared to follow his instructions.

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I believe God revealed Himself to those who He knew would reject Him, not just those who would be obedient. How could those who rejected Him be held to account if they had never been provided with the opportunity to recognise Him and follow Him?

Deeje said:

e.g. pre-Christian men of faith like Noah, Job and Abraham all had outstanding records of faithful obedience to the only true God who existed at that time. False worship surfaced after the flood, with the deification of Nimrod. False worship then spread to the most distant parts of the earth when God confused the language at Babel and other deities began to be worshipped in Nimrod's image. Pagan trinities began to be modeled after Nimrod, his wife/mother Semiramis, and Tammuz.

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God didn't just reveal Himself to Noah and the faithful few, but to Noah's people as well. Most heard His message through Noah and either ignored it or rejected it. The consequences were a matter of life and death. Likewise the Hebrew peoples in the time of Moses.

Deeje said:

I am sure that God was not responsible for these religions springing up in the world. Since his law stated quite succinctly in the first of the Ten Commandments...."You will have no other gods but me".

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Of course God is responsible for the pagan religions. He created us and has guided our every step. How could He not guided our formative spiritual experiences? Almost all known cultures have had their origins in pagan religions. Animism is the beginning of man's religious experience. However because God loves us and wished to bring us into closer communion with Him, He brought us Great Teachers such as the Abrahamic Messengers to bring us into a much closer communion with him. Once man had recognised and accepted God's teachings there could be no turning back. No compromise with the old ways. That was the problem though. There was turning back. The Hebrew peoples repeatedly turned away from God's commandments despite His prophets. How often they reverting to the pagan ways of the peoples around them.

Deeje said:

Since God stated that his 'people' would be the descendants of Abraham through Isaac, (not Ishmael,) I believe that those whose faith originates in Islam, cannot be the people of the true God.....but I believe that they are in line for the blessing that God promised through his faithful "friend" Abraham.

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There is your exclusive God again. I believe God provided all the descendants of Abraham the opportunity to know and to worship Him. Muhammad like Moses taught the Oneness of God and commanded the Arabic people to turn away from idol worship and paganism. In many respects Muhammad was much more like Moses than Christ and that was a product of the culture of the relatively barbaric culture of the Arabian peoples. Within a short period of time despite fierce opposition, Muhammad united the Arabic people in their allegiance to God and exhorted them to pray five times a day, to fast, and to follow His commandments.

Deeje said:

God was to fulfill his promise to Abraham, to bless mankind through the one he would send as a savior of his people through Abraham's descendants....so it seems as if people of all races were to benefit from his promises. But what were the qualifications to receive that blessing? Did it mean that they could also be practicers of religious beliefs that did not originate from the true God? The Bible tells us that in order to become an acceptable worshipper of the true God in Bible times, one had to come into God's nation and abide by his laws and become "brothers" with his chosen people. They had to leave their false religious beliefs behind because there was one faith and one set of laws....and all had to subscribe to it. “One law will apply for the native and for the foreigner who is residing among you.” (Exodus 12:49)

That law included no toleration of the worship of other gods....

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While that is mostly true, many of the peoples who eventually accepted the God of Abraham (due to the gospel being preached to all nations as Jesus commanded) followed pagan religions beforehand.

Deeje said:

“You must not have any other god but me.
4 “You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. 5 You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods." (Exodus 20:3-5)

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Deeje said:

So those who worshipped other gods had to leave that worship behind if they took up the worship of Israel's God YHWH. Does Islam promote the worship of YHWH?......Is Allah YHWH?

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Yes.

There is One God, One creator of the universe. He goes by many names. The Jews call Him Yahweh, the Muslims Allah, the Christian Jesus. Technically speaking, the Muslims and Jewish are more monotheistic as they reject a triune god.

Deeje said:

Jesus gave us clues to figure out who are acceptable to God and who are not.

In his parable of the 'sheep and the goats', Jesus, as God's appointed judge, tells us who are the ones he judges to be "sheep" and who he judges to be "goats"....the "sheep" are in line for everlasting life....but the goats are condemned to everlasting death. (Matthew 25:31-34) What is the criteria to qualify for life?

Click to expand...

Deeje said:

Jesus said...."For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably; 36 naked and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’"

So action is required on our part...but toward whom? There are three parties in this scenario.....Jesus.....his "brothers" and the "sheep". So we have to identify Jesus' "brothers" and offer them our assistance.

Click to expand...

It is for God to identify His Faithful servants. It is for us to follow what Jesus asked and to love all without judging them. The problem comes when man plays God and thinks he has the capacity to determine who will make it into heaven and who won't.

Deeje said:

Who are Jesus' brothers? And what happens if we have not offered assistance to them?

"Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels........‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of these least ones, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”

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Once again, this is a warning for us to live the life, and to assist those most in need. The righteous are those who love, see the good in people, and are servants to humanity.

Deeje said:

Because the outcome is so serious, it seems to me as if we each have a bit of investigating to do. The 'sheep' and the 'goats' in this parable don't seem to be aware that they are supporting, or failing to support, Christ's brothers. So, how do we know?......

Obviously just calling yourself a Christian is not enough because come the judgment time, those who claim Jesus as their "Lord" are completely rejected by him. (Matthew 7:21-23) That is not what any of us would want to hear from the judge of all the earth...is it?

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By their fruits ye shall know them. Some Christian denominations distinguish themselves by their absence at interfaith meetings. That seems very exclusive to me. Others are much more willing to work together with all regardless of professed religion or faith. We have the Catholics, Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Quakers, and Mormons as members of our interfaith council.

Where do the JWs stand?

adrian009 said:

By their fruits ye shall know them. Some Christian denominations distinguish themselves by their absence at interfaith meetings. That seems very exclusive to me. Others are much more willing to work together with all regardless of professed religion or faith. We have the Catholics, Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Quakers, and Mormons as members of our interfaith council.

Where do the JWs stand?

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"Fruits" are produce.....a fruit tree if it does not produce fruit is to be cut down, according to Jesus.

He said....in Matthew 7:15-23.....
"Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men."

Who were the rotten fruit back then? It was the leaders of a religious system that had developed due to the misapplication of scripture and the power and position of corrupt religious leaders.
Jesus was not sent to them because God had already judged them as incorrigible. (Matthew 23:37-39)
Jesus was sent exclusively to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel".

He went on to say.....

21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"

So even those claiming Jesus as their "Lord" were not going to be judged as worthy of life if they failed to produce fine fruit and obey God in all things....not just the convenient ones.

Our position on interfaith matters is based on Revelation 18:4-5...."And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind."

And 2 Corinthians 6:14-18..."Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

We cannot rub shoulders with those who touch what is spiritually "unclean" in God's eyes.
What Christendom accepts as "Christian" teaching is, in our opinion, nothing of the sort. Christendom was corrupted in exactly the same way as Judaism was before it. Just as the Christians had to 'get out of' that apostate religious system, so we see a clear directive to get out of any religious system whose teachings do not originate with God, but are a product of his adversary to lure people away from true worship by 'tickling their ears'. (2 Timothy 4:3-5)

People will make God into their own version of what they think he should be.....what if he isn't that God at all?
Read 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 again and see......

Deeje said:

@adrian009.....taking the Bible's account in the broad picture, it appears as if God has only spoken to those who were interested in doing his will. In the early part of man's history, God revealed himself only to those who were prepared to follow his instructions.

e.g. pre-Christian men of faith like Noah, Job and Abraham all had outstanding records of faithful obedience to the only true God who existed at that time. False worship surfaced after the flood, with the deification of Nimrod. False worship then spread to the most distant parts of the earth when God confused the language at Babel and other deities began to be worshipped in Nimrod's image. Pagan trinities began to be modeled after Nimrod, his wife/mother Semiramis, and Tammuz.

Trinities of gods are found throughout non-Christian religions.

Since Nimrod was deified, his mother, Semiramis became known as "the Mother of God" giving rise to Christendom's trinity and the Catholic Church's Madonna and child.

I am sure that God was not responsible for these religions springing up in the world. Since his law stated quite succinctly in the first of the Ten Commandments...."You will have no other gods but me".

Since God stated that his 'people' would be the descendants of Abraham through Isaac, (not Ishmael,) I believe that those whose faith originates in Islam, cannot be the people of the true God.....but I believe that they are in line for the blessing that God promised through his faithful "friend" Abraham.

God was to fulfill his promise to Abraham, to bless mankind through the one he would send as a savior of his people through Abraham's descendants....so it seems as if people of all races were to benefit from his promises. But what were the qualifications to receive that blessing? Did it mean that they could also be practicers of religious beliefs that did not originate from the true God? The Bible tells us that in order to become an acceptable worshipper of the true God in Bible times, one had to come into God's nation and abide by his laws and become "brothers" with his chosen people. They had to leave their false religious beliefs behind because there was one faith and one set of laws....and all had to subscribe to it. “One law will apply for the native and for the foreigner who is residing among you.” (Exodus 12:49)

That law included no toleration of the worship of other gods....

“You must not have any other god but me.
4 “You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. 5 You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods." (Exodus 20:3-5)

So those who worshipped other gods had to leave that worship behind if they took up the worship of Israel's God YHWH. Does Islam promote the worship of YHWH?......Is Allah YHWH?

Jesus gave us clues to figure out who are acceptable to God and who are not.

In his parable of the 'sheep and the goats', Jesus, as God's appointed judge, tells us who are the ones he judges to be "sheep" and who he judges to be "goats"....the "sheep" are in line for everlasting life....but the goats are condemned to everlasting death. (Matthew 25:31-34) What is the criteria to qualify for life?

Jesus said...."For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably; 36 naked and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’"

So action is required on our part...but toward whom? There are three parties in this scenario.....Jesus.....his "brothers" and the "sheep". So we have to identify Jesus' "brothers" and offer them our assistance.

Who are Jesus' brothers? And what happens if we have not offered assistance to them?

"Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels........‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of these least ones, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”

Because the outcome is so serious, it seems to me as if we each have a bit of investigating to do. The 'sheep' and the 'goats' in this parable don't seem to be aware that they are supporting, or failing to support, Christ's brothers. So, how do we know?......

Obviously just calling yourself a Christian is not enough because come the judgment time, those who claim Jesus as their "Lord" are completely rejected by him. (Matthew 7:21-23) That is not what any of us would want to hear from the judge of all the earth...is it?

Click to expand...

In short, I think it is a mistake to assume that God would have zero influence in religions that are not our own.

...If there are similarities, I see it as God attempting to enlighten. In that same way, i view Zoroastrianism as a holy religion, influenced by the Holy spirit.

Deeje said:

"Fruits" are produce.....a fruit tree if it does not produce fruit is to be cut down, according to Jesus.

He said....in Matthew 7:15-23.....
"Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men."

Who were the rotten fruit back then? It was the leaders of a religious system that had developed due to the misapplication of scripture and the power and position of corrupt religious leaders.
Jesus was not sent to them because God had already judged them as incorrigible. (Matthew 23:37-39)
Jesus was sent exclusively to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel".

He went on to say.....

21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"

So even those claiming Jesus as their "Lord" were not going to be judged as worthy of life if they failed to produce fine fruit and obey God in all things....not just the convenient ones.

Our position on interfaith matters is based on Revelation 18:4-5...."And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind."

And 2 Corinthians 6:14-18..."Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

We cannot rub shoulders with those who touch what is spiritually "unclean" in God's eyes.
What Christendom accepts as "Christian" teaching is, in our opinion, nothing of the sort. Christendom was corrupted in exactly the same way as Judaism was before it. Just as the Christians had to 'get out of' that apostate religious system, so we see a clear directive to get out of any religious system whose teachings do not originate with God, but are a product of his adversary to lure people away from true worship by 'tickling their ears'. (2 Timothy 4:3-5)

People will make God into their own version of what they think he should be.....what if he isn't that God at all?
Read 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 again and see......

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Hi @Deeje ,

There are differing perspective when it comes to biblical scripture.

I think we just agree to disagree.

I try to see the good in all people and find common ground.

Landon Caeli said:

In short, I think it is a mistake to assume that God would have zero influence in religions that are not our own.

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In order to know what religious ideas are not from the God of Abraham, one would have to know what he taught to his own nation and then what he taught through his son, Jesus Christ. We would also have to know who else is responsible for the other ideas that people have about 'gods' and religious practice in the world.

When Israel fell away to Baal worship, what was God's response? (Judges 2:11; 1 Kings 14:23-24
When his people began to worship the golden calf after God had miraculously freed them from Egypt, what was God's response? (Exodus 32:17-19)
Even King Solomon in his old age allowed his foreign wives to lead him away from the worship of the true God. (1 Kings 11:4-8)

I believe that it is a mistake to conclude that God has anything to do with any religion that he does not authorize. Can you find me one incident in the Bible where that was the case?

Who else wants our worship after all? What better way to separate people from God than to fool them into believing that God doesn't care how they worship him?

...If there are similarities, I see it as God attempting to enlighten. In that same way, i view Zoroastrianism as a holy religion, influenced by the Holy spirit.

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Zoroastrianism is dying out in the world. Nothing God blesses dies. It thrives....and it has no trace of false worship.
This religion goes back to the time after the flood of Noah's day. This is when Nimrod rebelled and introduced religious ideas that Jehovah did not endorse, like heaven and hell as opposite destinations for the dead, and immortality of the soul. It retains a remnant of ideas from Noah's God but that is where the similarity ends.

There is no religion influenced by the holy spirit today, that does not come from Jesus Christ. He said that what he taught came from his Father, not from himself. (John 7:16) He also said..."This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3) The God of Abraham has one name...YHWH. (Yahweh, Jehovah) He is not known by any other name.

Everlasting life does not come any other way. Jesus is "the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through [him]"

If we believe that we can come to the Father any other way, then we are fooling ourselves. That is what I believe.

adrian009 said:

Hi @Deeje ,

There are differing perspective when it comes to biblical scripture.

I think we just agree to disagree.

I try to see the good in all people and find common ground.

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I went through a period where I too was drawn to an exclusive mindset. Mostly, that attitude came from conversations with other hardliners on Catholic Answers forums when I was 'rediscovering' my faith, about 10 years ago.

I felt really secure, and sure of things, but at the same time, I cared little about non-Catholics and very much about discipline. I was all about following the rules, pretty much exclusively.

...I probably wouldn't have been that way if it weren't for me being influenced by lay Catholic radicals. But then, I was young at the time.

adrian009 said:

Hi @Deeje ,

There are differing perspective when it comes to biblical scripture.

I think we just agree to disagree.

I try to see the good in all people and find common ground.

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That's a nice thought Adrian, but it isn't what Jesus taught. He said...."Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his soul will lose it, and whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-36)

If Jesus came to cause "division" it means that people may have to make some tough choices....sometimes ending in bad blood between family members. A "sword" denotes a threat. Those who become Jesus' disciples can pose some sort of a threat to those who aren't apparently.....especially family members who may try to force a disciple to stop following that course. The "sword" might be emotional pressure.

Jesus also said..."If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me." (John 15:18-21)

What do you make of Jesus' words Adrian? Is this about fitting in and being Mr Niceguy to everyone? Or does it mean that becoming a true follower of Jesus Christ means that we can't be friends with the world by joining in with its goals, its religions and agendas....and will even incur its hatred because of that? Why? Because they do not know God.

This God is not inclusive of any who want to bring in their own ideas. This God has a people who are exclusively his own, identified by the love they have have for their God and for their fellow man. They will not be found meddling in politics or participating in bloodshed under any circumstance. They will be caring for one another as a global family of God's worshippers but will have little in common (religiously speaking) with anyone else.

Looks like agreeing to disagree is all we can hope to do.

Landon Caeli said:

I went through a period where I too was drawn to an exclusive mindset. Mostly, that attitude came from conversations with other hardliners on Catholic Answers forums when I was 'rediscovering' my faith, about 10 years ago.

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I guess that comes from marinating in certain mindsets with ritual and performance as key parts of one's belief system. I too was raised that way, but asking the hard questions of those in Christendom (regardless of the denomination) got me nowhere. The more I looked for God in the church system, the more elusive he became.
Only when I stopped searching did he 'tap me on the shoulder' and introduce himself. He found me, just when I had given up all hope of finding him and the answers I was seeking.

I felt really secure, and sure of things, but at the same time, I cared little about non-Catholics and very much about discipline. I was all about following the rules, pretty much exclusively.

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I had an Anglican upbringing so Catholicism was only ever a fringe part of my experience. My father was raised in the High Church of England, which is basically Catholic anyway. I was never drawn to ritual or pageantry or the kind of self discipline that made pain or poverty into something righteous. I just wanted to know God and to understand what he was doing in uncomplicated terms. I saw Jesus as a simple man with simple teachings. So I wanted Biblical answers that didn't require a stretch of my imagination....or intelligence.....I did not want someone saying "I think"....I wanted to know what God thought. Too many things didn't add up and I was angry about it.

...I probably wouldn't have been that way if it weren't for me being influenced by lay Catholic radicals. But then, I was young at the time.

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I was young too, and a bit fiery....but when I met JW's it changed my whole life. I have no more unanswered questions and the Bible is my sole source of information. I now know what I believe, and why I believe it, and I can fit everything neatly into the big picture that the Bible paints from Genesis to Revelation. I have never had doubts creep in to undo my conviction and I have had many challenges on these forums.

We each must take our own journey in the full knowledge that God knows everything about us. (Hebrews 4:13)
We all have to account to the same judge.

Landon Caeli said:

I went through a period where I too was drawn to an exclusive mindset. Mostly, that attitude came from conversations with other hardliners on Catholic Answers forums when I was 'rediscovering' my faith, about 10 years ago.

I felt really secure, and sure of things, but at the same time, I cared little about non-Catholics and very much about discipline. I was all about following the rules, pretty much exclusively.

...I probably wouldn't have been that way if it weren't for me being influenced by lay Catholic radicals. But then, I was young at the time.

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You don’t seem like a religious hard liner now. What caused you to change?

The Catholic Church from the outside appears to have changed a great deal towards building bridges with others.

My mother grew up in Northern Ireland where Protestants didn’t associate with Catholics. One of her best friends when she came to New Zealand was Catholic from Northern Ireland. Had they have met in their homeland they wouldn’t have had anything to do with each other.

Deeje said:

That's a nice thought Adrian, but it isn't what Jesus taught. He said...."Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his soul will lose it, and whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-36)

If Jesus came to cause "division" it means that people may have to make some tough choices....sometimes ending in bad blood between family members. A "sword" denotes a threat. Those who become Jesus' disciples can pose some sort of a threat to those who aren't apparently.....especially family members who may try to force a disciple to stop following that course. The "sword" might be emotional pressure.

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Christianity has been a significant factor in many wars and I wouldn't be suprised if Matthew 10:34-36 has been twisted to support a Christian crusade or two.

John 15:18-21 provides insight to the true cause of the seperation. Many will reject their Christian brethren and family members simply being Christian. It doesn't mean that Christians should reject their non-Christian family members and associates.

Deeje said:

Jesus also said..."If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me." (John 15:18-21)

What do you make of Jesus' words Adrian? Is this about fitting in and being Mr Niceguy to everyone? Or does it mean that becoming a true follower of Jesus Christ means that we can't be friends with the world by joining in with its goals, its religions and agendas....and will even incur its hatred because of that? Why? Because they do not know God.

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What does being a follower of Christ mean to me?

Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matthew 22:36-40

In regards who is really our neighbour and cutting across religious barriers His Holiness Jesus taught:

But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
Luke 10:29-37

In regards Judging others my beloved taught:
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Matthew 7:1-2

In regards to finding fault with others:

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Matthew 7:3-5

Deeje said:

They will be caring for one another as a global family of God's worshippers but will have little in common (religiously speaking) with anyone else.

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That sums up the holier than thou attitude of fundamentalist religionists well, whether they be Christian, Jewish, or Muslim.

Deeje said:

Looks like agreeing to disagree is all we can hope to do.

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Agreed.