How are these Great Beings explained?

TransmutingSoul · Nov 7, 2017

Carlita said:
Same with loverofhumanity.

I am part of this injustice. You are. John was in 35BC. Jane would be in 3014. No one is special.

Believe me. No one.

How does replacing my belief system to a new one change me for the better as with the Rest of humanity?

That is a very good question. That is what each of us us faces each day in our Daily thoughts and actions directed to all of humanity.

We all try to replace what is not good in us, for what is better. As to what is better it is our heart that must make the choice.

Regards Tony

Unveiled Artist · Nov 7, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
I think the only way to know that is to compare both systems but we are still in community building phase and as we don’t have a Baha’i State yet it would be impossible to make such a comparison.

When our system is more visible ie we have a Bahá’í State then things like crime and rape could be compared to the rate in the rest of the world. Until then it’s just speculation.

True. Its speculation.

Unless there is something new, Im sure this thread has given us a lot on what the new system is. My question is how will it benefit me than my old system. Anyone can generalize and say "we need to save humanity by doing X." When we say, what about Joe.

We say "it depends." Joe is part of humanity.

If we start with Joe we probably get an idea of his family, community, society, and culture. But on a thread, we have to start small.

loverofhumanity · Nov 7, 2017

Carlita said:
If Bahai was an non-profit organization to help humanity, of course beliefs would be beside the point. The fact that there is a Same message and Same progression from god, changes the nature of what Im asking.

So, I am part of humanity. I have a belief system needing to be replaced. Why replace my system when I, as humanity, am benefiting from what I believe now as opposed to my disbenefiting from a new system that Im told works better for me (me as part of humanity)?

If you feel what you have is working then you should keep it and not worry about any new system. The Baha’i system is only being built for us Baha’is. If humanity, at a later date likes it and wants to adopt it they are welcome to do so but as long as they want to keep their current system we don’t interfere.

Unveiled Artist · Nov 7, 2017

adrian009 said:
Does the ear of an elephant function independently from the elephant as a whole? What good are separate legs without the body? All rely on being part of the greater whole, and that includes the heart and head.

We all depend on the economy of our countries and our countries all depend on every other country. Like it or not we are all interdependent. Although we are individuals we are all part of the greater whole.

That's Unity in diversity. We already have it, but its a question of degrees.

You see diversity defined by a whole. I see the whole defined by diversity.

You see the elephant's body defines the parts of animal.
I say the parts of the animal makes up the elephant.

Diversity isnt defined by unity. Unity is defined by its diversity. Thats how I see it.

CG Didymus · Nov 7, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
In the beginning of all religions it’s like that. Christianity began with a few disciples then grew to embrace all humanity. Who would have thought then that it would encompass the world?

People then would have scoffed like they do now about Baha’u’llah. So only time will tell.

For us lucky ones however, who have accepted, we are able to perform some acts of service in this life.

Christianity already had teachings that Baha'is believe were false by the time they started spreading around the world. And to me, it sure seems like people were forced to convert. What do you think?

loverofhumanity · Nov 7, 2017

Carlita said:
True. Its speculation.

Unless there is something new, Im sure this thread has given us a lot on what the new system is. My question is how will it benefit me than my old system. Anyone can generalize and say "we need to save humanity by doing X." When we say, what about Joe.

We say "it depends." Joe is part of humanity.

If we start with Joe we probably get an idea of his family, community, society, and culture. But on a thread, we have to start small.

This is some of Baha’u’llah’s vision for humanity in the future. Interestingly this stage in humanity’s evolution has yet to be achieved.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 202-206

Unveiled Artist · Nov 7, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
If you feel what you have is working then you should keep it and not worry about any new system. The Baha’i system is only being built for us Baha’is. If humanity, at a later date likes it and wants to adopt it they are welcome to do so but as long as they want to keep their current system we don’t interfere.

Bahaullah says his system is or humanity. Christ said the same. So did The Buddha.

I just broke it apart because I dont understand "something greater" until you break it up to the mundane.

Dawnofhope · Nov 7, 2017

siti said:
No - I clearly indicated that I was referring to your comment that they could only be either right or wrong - no halfway houses. So you have decided that Sun Myung Moon is completely wrong about his identity as the True Parent and second advent of the Messiah. On what grounds? Your complete disinterest? Hmmm! So much for a genuine and independent investigation of truth!

Unification Church - Wikipedia

loverofhumanity · Nov 7, 2017

CG Didymus said:
Christianity already had teachings that Baha'is believe were false by the time they started spreading around the world. And to me, it sure seems like people were forced to convert. What do you think?

The truth always was there plain and simple and still is...

‘Love one another’.

Had this law been faithfully obeyed by one and all there would have been no need for God to send Baha’u’llah or any other Messenger after Christ. There would be no need for a spiritual revival, the world would never have had the great wars.

Unveiled Artist · Nov 7, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
This is some of Baha’u’llah’s vision for humanity in the future. Interestingly this stage in humanity’s evolution has yet to be achieved.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 202-206

I will need to read this later. I have so many bookmarks. Yes, I get around to it but if conversations are generalized, how am I learning anything that is not applicable to my beliefs.

I would love to talk about it specifically but even a small article someone gave me didnt get that far when I asked about it.

Start with one person. He is a reflection of humanity accordin to bahaullah. If we all have the same foundation, what about my belief needs to change to benefit me more than what i believe now?

CG Didymus · Nov 7, 2017

adrian009 said:
Hinduism is a religion I have little knowledge or experience. Have you asked any Hindus?

If you did some research you might hear something like this:

Hinduism is a collective term applied to the many philosophical and religious traditions native to India. Hinduism has neither a specific moment of origin nor a specific founder. Rather, the tradition understands itself to be timeless, having always existed.
Read more at Hinduism Origins, Hinduism History, Hinduism Beliefs

How about:

Historically speaking, the theory of reincarnation is as old as the history of man. Reincarnation arose in northern India between the years 1000 and 600 BC, just at the time that David and his descendants ruled Israel until the fall of Jerusalem. The first reference to reincarnation idea is at least 2600 years. It appears in the Upanishads, the sacred scriptures of Hinduism..

History Of Reincarnation: The Ancient And Original Beliefs

Hindus will see clear evidence to support reincarnation in the Upanishads as the Christians see the NT confirming a literal resurrection.

We really need to have a Baha'i here who has been a Hindu or has excellent knowledge of Hinduism IMHO. We don't.

You had two... Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l Baha. By leaving so many questions, it makes it difficult to believe it when Baha'is say all religions came from the one true God, and all manifestations taught the same truth... originally. And, the whole grade-school progression thing doesn't connect very well from one religion to the next once you include the religions that started in India.

Dawnofhope · Nov 7, 2017

Carlita said:
You see diversity defined by a whole. I see the whole defined by diversity.

You see the elephant's body defines the parts of animal.
I say the parts of the animal makes up the elephant.

Diversity isnt defined by unity. Unity is defined by its diversity. Thats how I see it.

Thank you.

I see it as being both diversity defining unity and unity defining diversity.

loverofhumanity · Nov 7, 2017

Carlita said:
Bahaullah says his system is or humanity. Christ said the same. So did The Buddha.

I just broke it apart because I dont understand "something greater" until you break it up to the mundane.

All these systems were fit to become universal. A tablet of the Bab says this.

“In the Bayan the Báb says that every religion of the past was fit to become universal. The only reason why they failed to attain that mark was the incompetence of their followers. He then proceeds to give a definite promise that this would not be the fate of the Revelation of ‘Him Whom God would make manifest’, that it will become universal and include all the people of the world.”
(Shoghi Effendi)

CG Didymus · Nov 7, 2017

adrian009 said:
Not all. His disciples didn't believe it. They never saw it. It never happened.

From day one.
Matthew 3:13-17

We all have tares that need to be separated from wheat.
Matthew 13:24-30

"His disciples didn't believe it"? All of them? What did they say that makes you think that?

So on "day" one, the heard a voice say that this is my beloved Son? I know you don't believe that God spoke audibly. So why would you say that?

loverofhumanity · Nov 7, 2017

Carlita said:
I will need to read this later. I have so many bookmarks. Yes, I get around to it but if conversations are generalized, how am I learning anything that is not applicable to my beliefs.

I would love to talk about it specifically but even a small article someone gave me didnt get that far when I asked about it.

Start with one person. He is a reflection of humanity accordin to bahaullah. If we all have the same foundation, what about my belief needs to change to benefit me more than what i believe now?

We can all improve and do better and be better people but I think that sincerity is important. If I am a more sincere Baha’i and you a more sincere and devout Buddhist both you and I will improve and it will be humanity’s gain.

If every religionists follows his/her religion as sincerely as he/she can I believe the world will be a much better place.

Unveiled Artist · Nov 7, 2017

adrian009 said:
Thank you.

I see it as being both diversity defining unity and unity defining diversity.

Haha. I was afraid to post because I knew you would say and. We would be in agreement if that were true.

OneTruth religions are, well, one truth. They are not, by definition, polytheistic.

I understand the gesture. Maybe its... believe in diversity is dependent on the whole "therefore, not 'and" the whole is able to be dependant on diversity?

I believe the complete opposite.

Cant be monotheistic and polytheistic at the same time, right?

And by the way, you're welcome.

Vinayaka · Nov 7, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
So you think the current world system with its corruption can be fixed? We don’t think so. We believe that only a new system can help humanity.

It is being fixed ... slowly. I like to see the positives with the world. Focusing on doom and gloom isn't healthy, in my view. Nor is it accurate. People have been talking this way for the last 100 years. Nothing will change with that attitude. Best to just go do something about it.

CG Didymus · Nov 7, 2017

InvestigateTruth said:
As far as I know the interpretation of the verses of Revelation 13 is not directly written in Baha'i Scriptures. I will give you my take on it, based on similar interpretations given by Abdulbaha and Bible in Daniel 8.

In Revelation 13, prophecies describe two beasts using symbols. The first beast looks like a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of lion.
This beast denotes the rise of false Islam, and specially related to Caliphs within the Sunni Islam. Looking like a leopard with feet like bear and mouth like lion, denotes that these dominions outwardly is aggressive and powerful, and appears to have religious authority like the Lion, being symbol of the Prophet of God.

The second beast, looks like a Lamb with two horns. The Lamb is the symbol of chosen Ones of God who sacrifice in the path of God. Within Shia Islam, all the Imams were Martyred and specially Imam Hossein's head was cut. This beast represent the Rise of false Shia Islam in Persia, who outwardly considered and pretended to be like the Wronged ones, and followers of the Imams of Shia, who were the symbols of sacrifice.

Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia

The two horns represents the kingdoms and dominions of Media and Persia, similar to Daniel 8. This is where the false Shia Islam came to power.

The only difference is, the Ram with two horns in Daniel 8 is changed with the Lamb, but he speaks like the first beast, meaning outwardly it looks like following the Wronged Ones of God, yet in reality, is speaking against the teachings of religion of God.
Now, the number of the beast, being 666 denotes 666 years after Christ, the rise of Muawiyah.
The Lamb makes everyone worship the Image of this beast. By 'image of beast', is meant the attributes of him; selfishness, cruelty and worldly. And in reality these are the attributes that the false Shia Islam promoted.

Thanks, I'm only on p.672 and stopping for the night. I'm taking notes on all this and will have some questions for you later. I hope that you and Adrian can give some interpretations of the remaining chapters in Revelation. Thanks.

Unveiled Artist · Nov 7, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
All these systems were fit to become universal. A tablet of the Bab says this.

“In the Bayan the Báb says that every religion of the past was fit to become universal. The only reason why they failed to attain that mark was the incompetence of their followers. He then proceeds to give a definite promise that this would not be the fate of the Revelation of ‘Him Whom God would make manifest’, that it will become universal and include all the people of the world.”
(Shoghi Effendi)

Thank you. This next question is more personal. I wont get offended I just dont like generalizations.

Am I incompetant because I failed to see the universal nature of all religions together?

Unveiled Artist · Nov 7, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
We can all improve and do better and be better people but I think that sincerity is important. If I am a more sincere Baha’i and you a more sincere and devout Buddhist both you and I will improve and it will be humanity’s gain.

If every religionists follows his/her religion as sincerely as he/she can I believe the world will be a much better place.

We (you, me, and humanity) does; no one is an outsidee. That is what Bahai is missing. When you replace our teachings for a new one you affect my happiness and millions of other people. The affect or kamma works both ways.

How are these Great Beings explained?

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