How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

And yet you still haven't answered the question. What do you call it when someone persists in the mistaken belief that they are the messiah?

If you look back at my posts I believe I have answered that question. I call someone with a persistently mistaken belief, mistaken. I've also acknowledged that your use of the term 'deluded' is technically correct and if you want to use this term, go ahead. I have also indicated why I would avoid using it outside of a psychiatric setting.

Adrian - please read my comments more carefully - I did not say that we have to reject all because one might be false - I said if the assumption is made that one is deluded, the question must be asked of the others. Neither did I suggest that Baha'u'llah was deluded, I asked you tell me what you would call it if someone persisted in the incorrect belief that he was the messiah? You have (apparently deliberately because, as a medical practitioner with several year's psychiatric experience there is no way you do not know the answer) failed to answer that question which suggests to me you think the conclusion you are imputing to me about Baha'u'llah might have some merit.

I am reading your posts carefully Siti. Here is what you said:

However, both Sun Myung Moon and Baha'u'llah both indicated that they were here to complete Christ's mission. So what you said is equally applicable to both of them: Ref Post # 13496

I expressed complete disinterest in the Unification church, so should I be completely disinterested in the Baha'i Faith? I certainly didn't make any specific comment about Sun Myung Moon's claims.

I believe considering Baha'u'llah's character and psychology would be useful. I don't believe He was mentally ill, but I entirely support you in your efforts to explore this possibility. We are in the general debate section and you do not need anyone's permission. I am happy to help you as well. I know I am not an objective observer being a Baha'i. Then again who of us is truly are objective?

Have you heard of Geschwind syndrome? The symptoms of this as manifested in some patients with temporal lobe epilepsy include compulsive writing or drawing, intense religious interest or experiences, altered sex drive (often decreased but sometimes increased) and the propensity to talk at length about trivial or irrelevant subjects.

Fyodor Dostoevsky (for example) is believed to have suffered this phenomenon - he wrote a lot - but you would hardly call him a madman.

I had not heard of this specific syndrome. There is obviously controversy surrounding whether or not it is a true neuropsychiatric disorder. We need to delve into the literature available in peer reviewed journals to better explore that.

Geschwind syndrome - Wikipedia

If it truly exists at all as a pathological entity, it is rare. It doesn't feature in DSM-V or ICD 10 the two most commonly used systems for classification of psychiatric disorders.

Perhaps you believe Baha'u'llah meets the criteria for this disorder. I would be intrigued to hear you reasoning.

Although I am not a psychiatry registrar or intern now, I was for seven years, and continue to practice medicine and see many people with psychiatric disorders in my day to day work as a GP. I humbly offer a few cautionary words about psychiatric diagnoses. In my country generally only medical practitioners can formally make a diagnosis (though sometimes nurse practitioners and psychologists too). Diagnoses are usually based on a thorough psychiatric evaluation that initially take at least an hour and considers collaborative information from secondary sources such as family and associates. Professionals making diagnoses have extensive training before they can diagnose.

One of the obvious pitfalls in making a psychiatric diagnosis if we look at the criteria, they often if not usually can apply to many of us. They include 'symptoms' or experiences that we can all relate to in degrees. I'm not surprised another on this thread had openly wondered if the diagnosis had applied to her, and that exemplifies one of the major problems with classifications of mental disorders.

Another point is, often psychiatric disorders have no scientific validity in the sense that you can not do a blood test or neuroimaging to confirm a diagnosis. So its highly subjective.

There has been a great deal of discussion and debate over the years about the limitations of applying the medical model to peoples psychological experiences, especially considering how common many of these experiences are.

So bearing that in mind, and you are free to totally disregard everything I say, go ahead and diagnose Baha'u'llah if you feel so inclined.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The new system he is talking of is for humanity not bahai nor specific regions that practice these behaviors. He is talking about All of humanity.

So, I am part of this humanity. I have a belief differant than yours. Our definitions our different. So is our foundations.

If differences causes disharmony, as Bahaullah says, what new system We need to implement for all of Our beliefs would have no rape or crimes?

So far all I can enviseage is that humanity eventually will take sex if it’s pedestal and women will over time be seen not as sex objects any longer but as valuable respected members of society and will be treated with the utmost dignity.

Humanity is evolving. So I think that is the goal but it will take centuries to bring about and both humanity and especially women will benefit greatly.

 

[loverofhumanity]

We dont need bahaullah for this, though. Go a bit deeper. I read a lot of organizations working towards peace.

What new system can We, you, I, and humanity can benefit from that Our current religious systems dont provide now?

No you don’t believe that and that is you’re right but we believe that the system He brought is from God so it will work but that’s just our belief.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That brings me to an important point I have already made earlier but that is well worth reiterating here. Even if a religious teacher were 'suffering' mental illness, does that automatically mean that their experiences were 'false'? Be careful how you answer that question because if, for example, you are not prepared to admit that Jesus may have suffered delusional episodes, what does that say about your attitude towards mental health? That God is not able to communicate with the mentally ill? What does that say about God?

Everything is on the table. It is interesting that sometimes when some of us are going through our greatest difficulties (such as experiencing intense psychological distress) that we are more prone to mystical experiences.

It may be that what we see as a profound disadvantage in human social settings is in fact an attribute that enables certain individuals to be more "in touch" with the spiritual (on the one hand - such as - possibly - temporal lobe epilepsy) or rational (on the other - many brilliant minds have showed clear signs of autism). Socially stigmatized they might be - but they are certainly able to function at the highest levels otherwise.

It is certainly an hypothesis worth considering, I agree.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I understand your logic but I can only speak for myself. I feel there’s an urgent need for a spiritual revival in our world.

But I can’t speak for you or others. You may feel there’s no need of a spiritual revival then that’s your belief.

Remember, though, Bahaullah is talking about humanity's needs not just himself.

So, thinking from a humanity perspective, if humanity needs help, the best way to address the issue is break it apart to find the foundation of the problem.

When you break it down, you realize humanity is made up of individual people.

To rephrase. What would bahaullah tell me I need that would benefit me, as part of humanity, more than the system I believe in now?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So far all I can enviseage is that humanity eventually will take sex if it’s pedestal and women will over time be seen not as sex objects any longer but as valuable respected members of society and will be treated with the utmost dignity.

Humanity is evolving. So I think that is the goal but it will take centuries to bring about and both humanity and especially women will benefit greatly.

That doesnt sound like humanity's problems. Definitely not Americans. Muslims maybe.

Go beyond politics. I have met nice child rapist and mean priests. Both are christian. What about their and the rest of humanity-you and I-system we need to replace in order for a new one?

That, and going by your expanation, it sounds like you are talking of specific area not everyone around the globe.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No you don’t believe that and that is you’re right but we believe that the system He brought is from God so it will work but that’s just our belief.

Yes. Im disecting your belief to understand it.

My belief system to bahaullah needs changing. So does christian johns system. And Muslim Jane.

Bahallauh talks about all of these people and you too. So, you have to answer it speaking for humanity. If not, there is no need to be bahai when I can donate money and volunteer towards the same cause.

What about my "belief system," not my actions, do I and the rest of humanity needs to replace in order to have no crimes?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Remember, though, Bahaullah is talking about humanity's needs not just himself.

So, thinking from a humanity perspective, if humanity needs help, the best way to address the issue is break it apart to find the foundation of the problem.

When you break it down, you realize humanity is made up of individual people.

To rephrase. What would bahaullah tell me I need that would benefit me, as part of humanity, more than the system I believe in now?

Everyone’s different. Each person finds that there is something or maybe nothing that Baha’u’llah taught that He/she felt was what was needed for our world. For some it was equality between men and women, for others the treatment of minorities and for others things like all people are one family or that He was the Promisesd One of their Faith. Each person had Baha’u’llah speak to his/her heart differently and it is different with each person.

But for many they feel nothing and so don’t feel there’s anything they need. You might be in that category. But there’s no one thing that Baha’u’llah speaks to every person that I know of as we are all different. You may reject everything He says and feel no need at all for anything new. That’s fine. We are different so many will feel like you do and some will feel like I do. So we all feel differently about it. And that’s fine.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That doesnt sound like humanity's problems. Definitely not Americans. Muslims maybe.

Go beyond politics. I have met nice child rapist and mean priests. Both are christian. What about their and the rest of humanity-you and I-system we need to replace in order for a new one?

That, and going by your expanation, it sounds like you are talking of specific area not everyone around the globe.

Really all we can do is build our communities and let the world judge. We don’t have a Bahá’í State or anything like that now to be able to measure a lot of these things but when and if we do then we will be able to see if there’s any difference for better or worse between the Bahá’í system and the current system.

For now a lot of it is just speculation because we are not in large enough numbers to be visible enough to see the impact of Baha’u’llah’s teachings on a large mass of people.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Everyone’s different. Each person finds that there is something or maybe nothing that Baha’u’llah taught that He/she felt was what was needed for our world. For some it was equality between men and women, for others the treatment of minorities and for others things like all people are one family or that He was the Promisesd One of their Faith. Each person had Baha’u’llah speak to his/her heart differently and it is different with each person.

But for many they feel nothing and so don’t feel there’s anything they need. You might be in that category. But there’s no one thing that Baha’u’llah speaks to every person that I know of as we are all different. You may reject everything He says and feel no need at all for anything new. That’s fine. We are different so many will feel like you do and some will feel like I do. So we all feel differently about it. And that’s fine.

Im asking a direct question with no interior motives.

Humanity is made up of individual people. Bahaullah days humanity not bahai, not loverofhumanity, needs a new system in order to end crimes. We need something to replace what we believe now.

Given you do not know my background (for sake of discussion), what about my belief needs replacing so my actions in humanity will change for the better?

 

[siti]

I am reading your posts carefully Siti. Here is what you said:

However, both Sun Myung Moon and Baha'u'llah both indicated that they were here to complete Christ's mission. So what you said is equally applicable to both of them: Ref Post # 13496

I expressed complete disinterest in the Unification church, so should I be completely disinterested in the Baha'i Faith? I certainly didn't make any specific comment about Sun Myung Moon's claims.

No - I clearly indicated that I was referring to your comment that they could only be either right or wrong - no halfway houses. So you have decided that Sun Myung Moon is completely wrong about his identity as the True Parent and second advent of the Messiah. On what grounds? Your complete disinterest? Hmmm! So much for a genuine and independent investigation of truth!

Perhaps you believe Baha'u'llah meets the criteria for this disorder. I would be intrigued to hear you reasoning.

Although I am not a psychiatry registrar or intern now, I was for seven years, and continue to practice medicine and see many people with psychiatric disorders in my day to day work as a GP. I humbly offer a few cautionary words about psychiatric diagnoses. In my country only medical practitioners can formally make a diagnosis (and sometimes psychologists too). Diagnoses are usually based on a thorough psychiatric evaluation that initially take at least an hour and considers collaborative information from secondary sources such as family and associates. Professionals making diagnoses have extensive training before they can diagnose.

One of the obvious pitfalls in making a psychiatric diagnosis if we look at the criteria, they often if not usually can apply to many of us. They include 'symptoms' or experiences that we can all relate to in degrees. I'm not surprised another on this thread had openly wondered if the diagnosis had applied to her, and that exemplifies one of the major problems with classifications of mental disorders.

Another point is, often psychiatric disorders have no scientific validity in the sense that you can do a blood test or neuroimaging to confirm a diagnosis. So its highly subjective.

There has been a great deal of discussion and debate over the years about the limitations of applying the medical model to peoples psychological experiences, especially considering how common many of these experiences are.

So bearing that in mind, and you are free to totally disregard everything I say, go ahead and diagnose Baha'u'llah if you feel so inclined.

I absolutely agree on the diagnosis thing - as I have noted - diagnosis is way beyond my knowledge and ability - that was not the point. One of the reasons its so tricky to diagnose psychiatric disorders is that we don't understand them well. Research has certainly thrown up some intriguing parallels between mental health and spirituality and it stands to reason from a humanist-physicalist point of view (which is the most apt characterization of my position in regard to the current topic - i.e. in addressing what it is that made the great religious teachers great) that both would be about something that happens in the brain. If that's right then we have to ask these questions - its not diagnosis, its not psychiatry, its abduction - reasoning to the most likely explanation - and of course we don't all have to reach the same "precise and accurate" conclusion - but refusing to consider the question (which is what you are really doing) out of some misplaced notion of blasphemous discourteousness (which is what you are really saying) is an absurd position for someone who simultaneously recommends an "independent investigation of truth".

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, that is why I ask. Why do I (you and millions of people) need to have a new law when each of us person may be happy just were he or she is?

So no change needed for the Happy person, when millions starve and millions face injustice?

How can a person be happy in life knowing people are suffering. Why would they not change to help, if it required change?

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Really all we can do is build our communities and let the world judge. We don’t have a Bahá’í State or anything like that now to be able to measure a lot of these things but when and if we do then we will be able to see if there’s any difference for better or worse between the Bahá’í system and the current system.

For now a lot of it is just speculation because we are not in large enough numbers to be visible enough to see the impact of Baha’u’llah’s teachings on a large mass of people.

If Bahai was an non-profit organization to help humanity, of course beliefs would be beside the point. The fact that there is a Same message and Same progression from god, changes the nature of what Im asking.

So, I am part of humanity. I have a belief system needing to be replaced. Why replace my system when I, as humanity, am benefiting from what I believe now as opposed to my disbenefiting from a new system that Im told works better for me (me as part of humanity)?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes that is the Abrahamic way. It's the 'either good or bad' overiding everything. Not the way I view it.

We were talking about beliefs that are true or not. The example was Baha'u'llah is either the Return of Christ or not. Same deal for reincarnation. It is either true or it is not, wouldn't you agree. It seems that Hindus have their bottom lines where they draw a line in the sand as to what is true or false, right or wrong, just as the Abrahamics do.

But when you got your degree, were each of your professors the best there was, or, in retrospect, were there some that were mediocre, or at least less able to teach than others?

Of course there were Professors that had a style of teaching that suited me better, and some would be widely considered better communicators. However they were all qualified and above the accepted standard to teach what they did.

The difference between medicine and religion is that only a few can get to practice medicine because the standard is so high to gain a place in medical school and there are limited places available. The country literally spends hundreds of thousands training each one, and it is a vital investment in the countries health system. Almost anyone can be a Christian or a Baha'i providing that is what they believe in and they are willing to make efforts to put the Teachings into practice. You don't have to train years to be a Christian or a Baha'i. Being a Faith adherent is something that should be accessible to all, not just an elite few.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So no change needed for the Happy person, when millions starve and millions face injustice?

How can a person be happy in life knowing people are suffering. Why would they not change to help, if it required change?

Regards Tony

Same with loverofhumanity.

I am part of this injustice. You are. John was in 35BC. Jane would be in 3014. No one is special.

Believe me. No one.

How does replacing my belief system to a new one change me for the better as with the Rest of humanity?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We dont need bahaullah for this, though. Go a bit deeper. I read a lot of organizations working towards peace.

What new system can We, you, I, and humanity can benefit from that Our current religious systems dont provide now?

First you say take Baha'u'llah out of the answer by saying we do not need Him.

And then you ask a question where we will include His remedies.

I guess then we will not be able to answer.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

You used the word 'endure'.

Definition of ENDURE

For Hindus, it's not a question of having a choice. Yes, in some lifetime, when all karmas are resolved, we'll turn inward, renounce the world, and seek moksha. Of course religions that think otherwise are free to.

I see it like driving down a bumpy road. You can either buck up, and enjoy the bumps, or you can 'endure' it begrudgingly.

Baha'is see it the same way.

Abdu'l-Baha would say if we are not happy in this day then what day are we waiting for. We are taught to develop qualities of radiant acquiescence in the face of trials and afflictions. Baha'u'llah suffered great. He was tortured, imprisoned in the most inhumane conditions and banished from His homeland. He bore all these afflictions with love and serenity. He consented to be in chains and fetters so we could live in freedom.

Then again, its easier said than done, for those that has lost a loved one or suffered terribly.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes. Im disecting your belief to understand it.

My belief system to bahaullah needs changing. So does christian johns system. And Muslim Jane.

Bahallauh talks about all of these people and you too. So, you have to answer it speaking for humanity. If not, there is no need to be bahai when I can donate money and volunteer towards the same cause.

What about my "belief system," not my actions, do I and the rest of humanity needs to replace in order to have no crimes?

I think the only way to know that is to compare both systems but we are still in community building phase and as we don’t have a Baha’i State yet it would be impossible to make such a comparison.

When our system is more visible ie we have a Bahá’í State then things like crime and rape could be compared to the rate in the rest of the world. Until then it’s just speculation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

First you say take Baha'u'llah out of the answer by saying we do not need Him.

And then you ask a question where we will include His remedies.

I guess then we will not be able to answer.

Regards Tony

Months ago, one or you said bahaullah speaks the same message as other great people. At one time you said if we share the same virtues Im bahai too.

So, the person Bahaullah teaches what everyone has already taught. Putting him there is just repeating myself.

Bahaullah says we need peace for All of humanity. Not Tony and Lover. Not Bahai. Not Iran. ALL of humanity. We need a new system to replace old ones.

How does my belief system too old to where I need a new one that is more benefitial than the old one?

How does the new system make me a better person than what I believe now?

(Humanity is made up of individual people. I=humanity)

 

[Dawnofhope]

I dont see a peace-issue regardless if we see parts of one distinct whole or a whole defined by distinct parts.

Its just two separate ways of seeing life. Nothing wrong with that. Why do we need to see one way over another to be at peace?

(I read the analogy. Thats just how Id interpret it if going by my values)

Does the ear of an elephant function independently from the elephant as a whole? What good are separate legs without the body? All rely on being part of the greater whole, and that includes the heart and head.

We all depend on the economy of our countries and our countries all depend on every other country. Like it or not we are all interdependent. Although we are individuals we are all part of the greater whole.

That's Unity in diversity. We already have it, but its a question of degrees.