Why did God tempt Adam and Eve?

shunyadragon said:

' . . . was to be crucified before the foundations of the world.'

Where was this predicted?

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Something like this the Jews say F5 of the Messiah upon ( Genesis 49:11 ) ,

``he washed (amle yrbtad amwym) , "from the day that the world was created"; who is he? this is the King Messiah.--It is written ( Genesis 1:2 ) ; "and the Spirit of God" This is the Spirit of the King Messiah; and from the day that the world was created; he washed his garments in wine;''

which the Jewish writers F6 understand of blood, which for its redness is like to wine; though they interpret it of the blood of the slain, with which the garments of the Messiah will be stained.

F5 Zohar in Gen. fol. 128. 2, 3
.F6 Targum Jon. & Jerus. & Aben Ezra in Gen. xlix. 11.

Revelation 13:8 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

Of course, you may not agree, but apparently they understood it so.

Faithofchristian said:

Yeah, sure here it is,
Luke 16:26--"And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: So that they which would pass from here to you can not; Neither can they pass to us,
That would come from there"

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Luke 16 is all parables or illustrations. They have a much deeper meaning than what appears on the surface.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is an illustration about the Pharisees and the "lost sheep" to whom Jesus was sent.
The rich man represented the proud Pharisees, living the high life whilst ignoring the ones for whom they should have acted as caring shepherds, represented by a malnourished beggar.

Jesus foretold a role reversal for both groups, represented by their 'deaths'. Since Jews had no belief in an afterlife, Jesus' audience would not have misunderstood the illustration like Christendom has. The position of favor (Abraham's bosom) was taken from the Pharisees and given to the humble disciples of Jesus who were rescued from their neglect by the Fine Shepherd.

The flames were obviously figurative too because again, there was no belief about a fiery hell in Judaism. A drop of water on the tip of the beggar's finger would not have made any difference to someone languishing in literal flames.

The gulf that Jesus spoke about was a complete separation from that apostate religious system. Those enlightened by Jesus would never go back to that corrupt system and the Pharisees and those who supported them would never accept Jesus as Messiah. Individuals could come across, but by and large, the separation between the two groups was complete. (Matthew 23:37-39)

Therefore those that haved died, can not pass from there to us, Neither can we pass from here to them. Between us and them is a Great Gulf Fixed.
Therefore neither one can pass to each other.

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You have it all mixed up again. There is no teaching of an immortal soul in the Bible. Jews had no such belief derived from scripture, so Jesus did not teach it. The dead sleep peacefully in their graves. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

Deeje said:

Luke 16 is all parables or illustrations. They have a much deeper meaning than what appears on the surface.

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I disagree... parables never had names of people such as Abraham and Lazarus. This is the ONLY story that has names. ALL parables NEVER had names of people.

jhwatts said:

Samuel did when Saul used the witch of Endor to summons him from the dead.

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Have you any idea what is going on there in 1 Samuel, first notice in chapter 28 verse 13 that the woman said unto Saul " I saw gods ascending out of the earth"

Note that this woman has a familiar spirit.
Which is an evil spirit, witchcraft, sorcerer, wizard, Note also these spirits came up out of the earth and not out of heaven above.

If may ask, who exactly is the god of this world, Christ Jesus in speaking about Satan, called him the Prince of this world.
John 12:31.

Note that when you read the Bible and come across the word ( god ) notice it has a lower case ( g ) indicating a leaser god.

Notice when speaking of the Almighty God
Notice the ( G ) is a higher case ( G ) indicating the Almighty God of heaven above and not the lower case ( g ) indicating the god of this world Satan.

Notice in 1 Samuel 28:6 "And when Saul enquired of the Lord, The Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets"

So according to the verse above, those gods that came up out of the earth, was not sent by the Lord, for the Lord would not answer Saul,neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

Therefore the Great Gulf Fixed, stands as is.
Those who haved died and are on the other side of the Great Gulf Fixed, can not cross over to us, nor can we cross over to them.

But however Satan and his angels can impersonate people. As he did with Saul in 1 Samuel 28. By those gods that came up out of the earth.

Our God the Almighty God, does not come up out of the earth. But comes down out of heaven above.

And those that haved died their spirit is in heaven and not in the earth.

Notice in Ecclesiastes 12:7--"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

Therefore there is no spirit's in the earth, all who die their body of flesh returns back to the dust of the earth.
And our spirit returns back to God in heaven above who gave it.

Deeje said:

Luke 16 is all parables or illustrations. They have a much deeper meaning than what appears on the surface.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is an illustration about the Pharisees and the "lost sheep" to whom Jesus was sent.
The rich man represented the proud Pharisees, living the high life whilst ignoring the ones for whom they should have acted as caring shepherds, represented by a malnourished beggar.

Jesus foretold a role reversal for both groups, represented by their 'deaths'. Since Jews had no belief in an afterlife, Jesus' audience would not have misunderstood the illustration like Christendom has. The position of favor (Abraham's bosom) was taken from the Pharisees and given to the humble disciples of Jesus who were rescued from their neglect by the Fine Shepherd.

The flames were obviously figurative too because again, there was no belief about a fiery hell in Judaism. A drop of water on the tip of the beggar's finger would not have made any difference to someone languishing in literal flames.

The gulf that Jesus spoke about was a complete separation from that apostate religious system. Those enlightened by Jesus would never go back to that corrupt system and the Pharisees and those who supported them would never accept Jesus as Messiah. Individuals could come across, but by and large, the separation between the two groups was complete. (Matthew 23:37-39)



You have it all mixed up again. There is no teaching of an immortal soul in the Bible. Jews had no such belief derived from scripture, so Jesus did not teach it. The dead sleep peacefully in their graves. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

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No you have it according to man's teachings and doctrines which does go inside of the teachings of Christ Jesus.

Christ Jesus is giving exactly what happens to people once the die.

That after people die, their spirit cross over on the other side of the Great Gulf Fixed and those that alive here on earth, can not cross over to them nor can those on the other side cross over to us.
That between us and them is a great gulf fixed, those who haved died cannot cross over to us nor us to them.

Look when you die, your spirit returns back to God who gave it. Therefore your spirit cannot cross back over to here. Nor can we which are here on earth cross over to you. Until we die, then we cross over to the other side of the Great Gulf Fixed.

KenS said:

I disagree... parables never had names of people such as Abraham and Lazarus. This is the ONLY story that has names. ALL parables NEVER had names of people.

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How does giving the characters names change anything about the lesson? Luke chapters 14-16 are all parables.....

Thief said:

is it not written somewhere?........God does not tempt Man

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He doesn't call it "tempting" anyway. He outsources that particular word.

Then again, I don't believe in free will, so I guess He really doesn't tempt so much as tell you what He's gonna make you do.

Faithofchristian said:

If may ask, who exactly is the god of this world, Christ Jesus in speaking about Satan, called him the Prince of this world.
John 12:31.

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If God is not God, then why bother worshiping God?

Faithofchristian said:

But however Satan and his angels can impersonate people.

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Do you believe the apostles, both actual and self-proclaimed, saw Jesus returned from the dead or just Satan cosplaying as Jesus?

Faithofchristian said:

Our God the Almighty God, does not come up out of the earth. But comes down out of heaven above.

Click to expand...

Our Almighty God does not come to the earth at all in person. No human could survive if he did.
He is a spirit and he resides in heaven. Jesus gave his Father a dwelling place. (Matthew 6:9)

And those that haved died their spirit is in heaven and not in the earth.

Click to expand...

There is no disembodied spirit that floats off somewhere at death. This is not a Jewish belief taught in the Hebrew scriptures. There is a difference between a soul and spirit. They are two different words with two different meanings.

The Hebrew word for "soul" is neʹphesh ......the Greek word is psy·kheʹ.
In the Bible, this word basically refers to (1) people, (2) animals, or (3) the life that a person or an animal has. IOW, it is a living, breathing thing. It is not something that inhabits a person....it IS the person. The human "psyche" has to do with the activity and function of the thinking processes of a living brain...."psychology"...."psychiatry"..."psychosomatic".....etc.

Some people think that “spirit” is just another word for “soul.” However, that is not the case. The Hebrew word for "spirit" is ruʹach....the Greek word is pneuʹma.

Do we use words with this meaning?....yes we do. "Pneumonia" is a condition of the lungs that affects breathing.
A "pneumatic"tire is filled with air. So "spirit" in Greek is connected to air and breathing.
Psalm 146:4 says...."His spirit (ru'ach) goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish."

This agrees with Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10...."For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten......Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going."

Our spirit has no ability to exist without a body. The soul (person) cannot exist without the spirit that keeps us breathing.

Notice in Ecclesiastes 12:7--"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

Therefore there is no spirit's in the earth, all who die their body of flesh returns back to the dust of the earth.
And our spirit returns back to God in heaven above who gave it.

Click to expand...

No, the "spirit" that returns to God is the breath of the individual. When Adam was created, he was not "a living soul" until God 'breathed' life into him. God gave him breath and only God can restore it once a soul has died. (Ezekiel 18:4)
In the resurrection, those brought back to life will breath again, having had their "spirit" returned.

The teaching that we have an immortal soul is Greek, not Jewish.

Faithofchristian said:

No you have it according to man's teachings and doctrines which does go inside of the teachings of Christ Jesus.

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That is getting old. I can say the same about you. Who taught you these things?

Faithofchristian said:

Christ Jesus is giving exactly what happens to people once the die.

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No, he was giving a parable about the Pharisees and the "lost sheep" to whom he was sent. Jesus believed that death is a sleep. Read the account about the resurrection of his friend, Lazarus...and note where Jesus said he was?

"After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died". (John 11:11-14)

Faithofchristian said:

That after people die, their spirit cross over on the other side of the Great Gulf Fixed and those that alive here on earth, can not cross over to them nor can those on the other side cross over to us.
That between us and them is a great gulf fixed, those who haved died cannot cross over to us nor us to them.

Click to expand...

There is nothing to cross over anywhere. Once the soul is dead, his future life prospects rest with God in a promised resurrection. (John 5:28-29) There is no part of man that survives death. That is not a Bible teaching.

Deeje said:

How does giving the characters names change anything about the lesson? Luke chapters 14-16 are all parables.....

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That's what man's teachings will tell you, when things do not go inside with their teachings, it's all parables.

There's nothing there in Luke 16:26 to indicate that it's a parable.

Notice right at the beginning of verse 26 Jesus said " And beside all this"
Meaning that no one can communicate to those on the other side of the Great Gulf Fixed nor can those on the other side can communicate with us.

Therefore what Jesus gave of Abraham and Lazarus can not happen for the simple fact that those on the other side of the Great Gulf Fixed can not communicate with us nor can we on this side of the Great Gulf Fixed communicate with those on the other side of the Great Gulf Fixed.

This is why Jesus pointed out by saying
"And beside all this" between us and You.
Meaning those who are on the other side.

So that they which would pass from here to those on the other side can not.

Neither can they pass to us.Why?

All because between us those who pass died, can not pass back to us. Once a person die's they are gone not to come back to us here on this of the Great Gulf Fixed.

There are those that will try to bring
1 Samuel 28, into this picture unto which will not work for the simple reason.

In 1 Samuel 28:13, This woman has familiar spirit, which means she's a Sorcerer, witchcraft,
Notice also only she saw that gods ( spirit)
ascending out of the earth.
spirits do not ascend out of the earth,

Once a person die's their body returns back to the dust of the earth where it was taken from, and their spirit returns back to God in heaven who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 12:7--"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

Also notice there in 1 Samuel 28:13, that only this woman saw the spirit, like alot of those that try witchcraft even to day will conjure up things just to make the person think they are communicating with the dead.
Notice in Verse 14, that king Saul perceived it was Samuel, Therefore king Saul did not know exactly if it was Samuel only perceived it was.
Just like anyone else who trys witchcraft that will do things and say things to get a person to believe they are actually talking to the dead, which they are not, only deceiving the person into believing they are. All for a price, money?

Kelly of the Phoenix said:

He doesn't call it "tempting" anyway. He outsources that particular word.

Then again, I don't believe in free will, so I guess He really doesn't tempt so much as tell you what He's gonna make you do.


If God is not God, then why bother worshiping God?


Do you believe the apostles, both actual and self-proclaimed, saw Jesus returned from the dead or just Satan cosplaying as Jesus?

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Well first of all, it wasn't just the disciples who saw Jesus that returned from the dead, but many people also.

You say you don't believe in free will, each and everyday you make decisions as to what to do or not to do, therefore whether you believe or not, you still use free will to make your decisions. It's your choice on what you do in your life.

You say you don't believe in free will, but yet you just used free will in not to believe in free will. That's your free will to believe or not to believe.

shunyadragon said:

' . . . was to be crucified before the foundations of the world.'

Where was this predicted?

Click to expand...

The book of Revelation describes Jesus as "slain before the foundations of the earth":

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. (Revelation 13:8, NIV)

BilliardsBall said:

The book of Revelation describes Jesus as "slain before the foundations of the earth":

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. (Revelation 13:8, NIV)

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I believe you got it backwards, all who have their names Written in the Lambs book of Life are Christ Jesus.

Those who's names are not found in the book of Life are cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:15.

Deeje said:

Our Almighty God does not come to the earth at all in person. No human could survive if he did.
He is a spirit and he resides in heaven. Jesus gave his Father a dwelling place. (Matthew 6:9)



There is no disembodied spirit that floats off somewhere at death. This is not a Jewish belief taught in the Hebrew scriptures. There is a difference between a soul and spirit. They are two different words with two different meanings.

The Hebrew word for "soul" is neʹphesh ......the Greek word is psy·kheʹ.
In the Bible, this word basically refers to (1) people, (2) animals, or (3) the life that a person or an animal has. IOW, it is a living, breathing thing. It is not something that inhabits a person....it IS the person. The human "psyche" has to do with the activity and function of the thinking processes of a living brain...."psychology"...."psychiatry"..."psychosomatic".....etc.

Some people think that “spirit” is just another word for “soul.” However, that is not the case. The Hebrew word for "spirit" is ruʹach....the Greek word is pneuʹma.

Do we use words with this meaning?....yes we do. "Pneumonia" is a condition of the lungs that affects breathing.
A "pneumatic"tire is filled with air. So "spirit" in Greek is connected to air and breathing.
Psalm 146:4 says...."His spirit (ru'ach) goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish."

This agrees with Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10...."For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten......Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going."

Our spirit has no ability to exist without a body. The soul (person) cannot exist without the spirit that keeps us breathing.



No, the "spirit" that returns to God is the breath of the individual. When Adam was created, he was not "a living soul" until God 'breathed' life into him. God gave him breath and only God can restore it once a soul has died. (Ezekiel 18:4)
In the resurrection, those brought back to life will breath again, having had their "spirit" returned.

The teaching that we have an immortal soul is Greek, not Jewish.



That is getting old. I can say the same about you. Who taught you these things?



No, he was giving a parable about the Pharisees and the "lost sheep" to whom he was sent. Jesus believed that death is a sleep. Read the account about the resurrection of his friend, Lazarus...and note where Jesus said he was?

"After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died". (John 11:11-14)



There is nothing to cross over anywhere. Once the soul is dead, his future life prospects rest with God in a promised resurrection. (John 5:28-29) There is no part of man that survives death. That is not a Bible teaching.

Click to expand...

It is evident that you have no clue what the breath of life is.
The breath of life that God breathed is the spirit of life,
Strong's Concordance Hebrew translation
5397 , soul, breath = spirit.

Deeje said:

How does giving the characters names change anything about the lesson? Luke chapters 14-16 are all parables.....

Click to expand...

Then one could say the whole of the Gospels are just a parable and have no historical content. We can't switch when we want to... almost every time a parable is given it says "And there was a parable" and it NEVER contained living character names. Why should we all of a sudden switch?

Faithofchristian said:

Yeah, sure here it is,
Luke 16:26--"And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: So that they which would pass from here to you can not; Neither can they pass to us,
That would come from there"

Therefore those that haved died, can not pass from there to us, Neither can we pass from here to them. Between us and them is a Great Gulf Fixed.
Therefore neither one can pass to each other.

Click to expand...

But we're not talking about passing from here to there but with the use of prayer. I certainly am not and did not state that somehow we could pass to there or vice versa.

So, where does it state or even imply that we cannot pray for one another?

KenS said:

Lev 16:21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task.

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But here's how it reads in the RSV: Lev.16[21] and Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins; and he shall put them upon the head of the goat, and send him away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness. [22] The goat shall bear all their iniquities upon him to a solitary land; and he shall let the goat go in the wilderness.

Notice what missing that is found in yours? Also, the Jewish belief about what we do on Yom Kippur is to forgive sins that we may not be aware of and also for the forgiveness of communal sins-- iow, the sins of Israel. Personal sins are not viewed as being forgiven through that process but must be dealt with directly with whom we have sinned against while also asking God for forgiveness as well. If we don't at least try do the former, then the belief is that the latter will not avail to anything.

BTW, I use the RSV most of the time because it's a more direct translation than most other Bibles. So, which translation were you using?

KenS said:

As far as below... granted that works are important... but it is still believe first...

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I never stated or implied otherwise

KenS said:

The doctors call you the "golden boy" because after they see you, they buy gold!

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No, it's because I'm the "Gold Standard". And my wife also thinks I'm the "Gold Standard" as well. Here's her coming to collect her gold:

KenS said:

Then one could say the whole of the Gospels are just a parable and have no historical content. We can't switch when we want to... almost every time a parable is given it says "And there was a parable" and it NEVER contained living character names. Why should we all of a sudden switch?

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My solution is to treat every single narrative as if it's a parable so I don't have to get into if X really happened as it's written. Instead, I focus on the teaching of the morals and values that are involved to see which might be useful.

However, here at RF I do often engage in discussions whereas I often deal with narratives as if they're accurate historical events. Just one of my many quirks.

BilliardsBall said:

The book of Revelation describes Jesus as "slain before the foundations of the earth":

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OK, but this is an after the fact reasoning, and not as you stated;

' . . . was to be crucified before the foundations of the world.'

Where was this predicted?

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. (Revelation 13:8, NIV)

Click to expand...

Remains an interpretation of a bad dream of good against evil.

metis said:

But we're not talking about passing from here to there but with the use of prayer. I certainly am not and did not state that somehow we could pass to there or vice versa.

So, where does it state or even imply that we cannot pray for one another?

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If your referring to praying to someone here on earth, that we can do.

But to pray for someone who is already there with God. What would be the logic in that to pray for someone who is already there with God.

Let's define what prayer is, prayer is to ask God to intervene, but since people are already there with God, what is there for God to intervene for?

Faithofchristian said:

But to pray for someone who is already there with God. What would be the logic in that to pray for someone who is already there with God.

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Why are you assuming that just because someone may be in heaven that everything is absolutely perfect with them? If I can pray to God for your benefit, why couldn't I pray for them for theirs? The early Christians felt that way.

Also, there's the issue of sheol, namely that can we as living persons pray for someone who has not yet been judged? Why not, especially if I can pray for you and you can pray for me now?

Faithofchristian said:

Let's define what prayer is, prayer is to ask God to intervene, but since people are already there with God, what is there for God to intervene for?

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Prayer is not monolithic as there are different forms, including prayers of praise, meditative prayer, etc.

Secondly, why can't I ask God to intervene for someone who may have passed away. If I can do it while they're alive, why not if they're not physically here?

Finally, I'm not saying that praying for those whom have passed-over is the correct thing we all must do, just that there's an argument and a historical justification for it in Christian history and theology that says that at least it's a possibility. Therefore, I'm not saying the Catholic position must be correct, just that there is some justification for it traditionally and theologically. If you don't personally accept it, then the solution for you is obvious-- don't do it. But just because you don't do it necessitates telling others not to do it, especially since your position is actually the one that's more out of line with the early theology on this.

BTW, I don't believe in it either, but for a somewhat different reason (see my signature statement at the bottom of this post for why).