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Is Christianity Parroting Judaism?
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Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I think Christianity hijacked Judaism.
they claim it as part of their heritage, but basically that is what parroting something is. taking something that one doesn't understand exactly and simply repeating it.
that is why there were the prophets often at odds with the commoners
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Everyone wants to do their own thing, but people are rarely creative enough to come up with anything original. Hence, we now have thousands upon thousands of religious flavors rooted in a handful of basic themes.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Christianity started out as a radical form of Judaism based on the teachings of Jesus and his apostles, but it quite quickly morphed away from the Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic Law. There are a fair number of similarities but a much greater number of differences.
arjuna
Member
I guess if one considers that Jesus was strongly against the Pharisees, overturned the tables of the moneychangers at the temple and encouraged loving one's neighbor giving the Samaritan example.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
No its quite different. Islam though, seems to parrot judaism , although the kaaba isnt quite like the wall
Roman Catholicism is rife with idolatry.
Even the cross is an image.
The Law of Moses stated.....
“You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth. 5 You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them..."
Its hard to justify the practice of making images (of anything) used in connection with worship, when God's worshippers are expressly forbidden to do so. (1 Corinthians 10:14)
The traditions of the Pharisees had replaced the laws of God, as Jesus said....
Mark 7:5-9
"So these Pharisees and scribes asked him: “Why do your disciples not observe the tradition of the men of former times, but they eat their meal with defiled hands?” 6 He said to them: “Isaiah aptly prophesied about you hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 7 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’ 8 You let go of the commandment of God and cling to the tradition of men.”
9 Further, he said to them: “You skillfully disregard the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition."
Why is the word "skillfully" used in this passage? Because the traditions are made to appear to be sanction by God and backed up by scripture. Any wonder that Jesus rejects such false Christianity at the coming judgment. (Matthew 7:21-23)
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
And the JW's are rife with ignorance on this and many other matters. You are "bearing false witness" since Catholics do not pray to Mary (they pray through Mary), nor do they pray to statuary.
We have discussed this many times before, and yet you come back with one falsehood after another after another... with a holier-than-Thou attitude that you share with all too many JW's.
There's plenty to disagree with when it comes to Catholic teachings, and I disagree with 99.9% of it, but I at least don't fabricate stories to justify why I don't share their dogma.
Also, just a reminder that on the Ark of the Covenant there were cherubim and also that Moses had a bronze serpent on his staff.
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
The irony is that Jesus was of the Pharisee tradition, so what you're seeing in the gospels is pretty much an internal ("family") squabble largely dealing with how the Mosaic Law should be interpreted and/or applied. And Paul upon arrest said that he's a Pharisee.
Jesus was even more liberal in his positions than the Hillel school, and the latter was quite liberal in and of themselves.
The Bible says that there is only one mediator through whom our prayers to God can be conveyed....and it isn't Mary. The mother of Jesus held no special place in Christianity until ancient mother goddess worship was grafted into the Catholic church.
1 Timothy 2:5
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus."
There is no biblical basis for praying through anyone else. Is this a difficult concept for the church?
Really?
Wasn't the command not to even MAKE images to be used in worship (Exodus 20:4-5)....did the church miss that memo?
I understand your need to defend your wife's religion.....even when you disagree with 99% of what it teaches. But the truth is the truth. I have studied the Bible with many Catholic people over many years and from them I have taken my information about their attitude to the religious statues they use in worship, both at home and in church. When they see what the Bible teaches about those things, they are usually disgusted with the church for breaching so many of God's commands and teaching them lies. There is no fabrication on my part, metis...there is only pathetic justification on theirs. Its got nothing to do with being "holier than thou".
May I also remind you that the ark of the covenant was never seen by the people. Only the High Priest was permitted to enter the "Most Holy" compartment of the temple where the ark was kept, once a year. Even when it was transported, it was covered with seal skins.
As for the copper serpent, it was later destroyed when the people made an idol out of it....so no justification there. Sorry.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
So, you believe that one cannot pray for another person? Is it possible, iyo, that one may ask another person to pray for them? Do you think that a person who dies and goes to heaven may still be able to be involved in the "communion of saints", which is a concept as old as Christianity is.
In Catholicism, the view is that there is no impenetrable wall of separation between the living and the dead, but then maybe with the JW's when you're dead and just disappear forever.
According to Bishop Jerome, the church always held Mary in high esteem, and even at the cross Jesus tells John "behold your mother", and prior to Jesus birth Mary is told by Elizabeth "blessed are you among women". So much for her having "no special place", which contradicts what the gospels say.
Also, you again exert your utterly dishonest approach on this by continuing to say that Mary is worshiped even though I have explained to you on numerous occasions that this is against the teachings of the church: "Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God." -- Saint Worship? | Catholic Answers
So, will you please stop being so dishonest on this?
No, it was a practice even before Jesus was born, and that practice continued in the early church, and we know this from historical writings in the 2nd century.
The issue of "graven image" is not explained through the scriptures, but what it clear is that Catholic Canon Law forbids idol worship in all its forms.
BTW, do you take pictures with a camera? Are these pictures "graven images"? Some Jewish groups believe it is because they are "images" and they show human images, therefore are "graven". Maybe throw your camera and any pictures away just to be sure you don't posses "graven images", Deeje.
My wife can well defend herself, so she doesn't need me to do it.
My responses back to you is to counter the anti-Catholic religious bigotry you've been taught and blindly swallowed without doing the research on your own. You're been led by the nose by the Watchtower Society and are not even willing to actually look things up. You should be very suspicious of any organization that lies in the name of "Jehovah".
BTW, how many times did the world come to an end as predicted by the WS? And then what fabrications did the WS come up with when they didn't happen? Notta good track record, Deeje.
What???
According to the Book of Exodus, God instructed Moses on Mount Sinai during his 40-day stay upon the mountain within the thick cloud and darkness where God was and he was shown the pattern for the tabernacle and furnishings of the Ark to be made of ****tim wood to house the Tablets of Stone. Moses instructed Bezalel and Oholiab to construct the Ark. In Deuteronomy, however, the Ark is said to have been built specifically by Moses himself without reference of Bezalel or Oholiab. -- Ark of the Covenant - Wikipedia
Did you think it just floated down from heaven, Deeje?
Again, you so conveniently miss the point. Who carried the rod and who ordered it, Deeje?
Anyhow, the Watchtower Society has shown its contempt for any religion or denomination but themselves, and then we wonder why there's so much bigotry and hatred in today's world. Too bad you are a part of that.
Did I say that metis?
We are definitely encouraged to pray for one another.....living human beings praying for other living human beings. Nowhere are we told to pray to God through anyone but Jesus Christ. He is our only mediator according to scripture. If you can show me in scripture where Mary was appointed as a mediatrix, I will admit my mistake.Ancient Jews did not believe in life after death because this concept is not taught in the Hebrew scriptures. Resurrection is what Jews believed in. i.e. a physical return to life on earth, just as Lazarus experienced. Where was Lazarus before Jesus resurrected him? Jesus said he was "asleep" (John 11:11-14) He was not in heaven...he was unconscious in sheol. (the grave)
Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10...."For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten......Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, where you are going." (Complete Tanach)
"Sheol" is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek word "hades". No one is either conscious or alive in sheol or hades. It is the place where the dead "sleep".
The "communion of saints" is not mentioned in scripture either. It is an adoption from paganism. No one in the Bible ever prayed for the dead. It is not as old as Christianity itself at all. If you can find any mention of "communion of saints" in the NT, I will be interested to see it.
Catholic reference works also freely admit that adoration of Mary does not go back to apostolic times. The Catholic Encyclopedia states......“Devotion to Our Blessed Lady in its ultimate analysis must be regarded as a practical application of the doctrine of the Communion of Saints. Seeing that this doctrine is not contained, at least explicitly, in the earlier forms of the Apostles’ Creed, there is perhaps no ground for surprise if we do not meet with any clear traces of the cultus [worship] of the Blessed Virgin in the first Christian centuries.”
The original Nicene Creed (325 C.E.) makes no mention of the “Virgin Mary.” It was not until the Council of Ephesus, held in 431 C.E., that Mary was defined in Catholic dogma as the “Mother of God” (Greek: Theotokos, literally “God-bearer”). And even then, this was more for Trinitarian reasons (to combat Nestorius, who denied that Jesus was brought forth God-Man) than to encourage devotion to Mary. Why this lack of attention to the devotion to Mary?
Because the practice is based, not on the Bible, but on Apocryphal literature, such as the so-called “Gospel of St. James” and the Sibylline Oracles.
According to The Catholic Encyclopedia, it was only in the later Middle Ages, after the year 1000, “that the deep feeling of love and confidence in the Blessed Virgin, which hitherto had expressed itself vaguely and in accordance with the promptings of the piety of individuals, began to take organized shape in a vast multitude of devotional practices.” It was at that time that many of the medieval Gothic cathedrals throughout France were built and dedicated to Notre Dame (Our Lady)".
Do you do any research metis? "The Queen of Heaven" (one of Mary's many titles in Catholicism) was adopted from a pagan goddess, not Mary. She is mentioned in the Bible as a false goddess, used to provoke YHWH.
Jeremiah 7:16-18.....
"And you, pray not on behalf of this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer, and entreat Me not for I will not hear you.
17Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
18The sons are gathering wood, the fathers are kindling fire, and the women are kneading dough to make starshaped cakes for the queen of the heaven and to pour libations to other gods, in order to provoke Me."
The Scriptures do not specifically identify the “queen of heaven.” though it has been suggested that this goddess can be identified with the Sumerian fertility goddess Inanna, Babylonian Ishtar. (from where we get "Easter") The name Inanna literally means “Queen of Heaven.” The corresponding Babylonian goddess Ishtar was qualified in the Akkadian texts by the descriptors “queen of the heavens” and “queen of the heavens and of the stars.” Do you not see the skulduggery?
Metis, it is not my intention to offend anyone....I am telling a difficult truth and I do so with the experience of many years of dealing with Catholic people who have shared their beliefs and concerns with me. I am sorry to elicit defensiveness over this. But the truth cannot be hidden or denied. It cannot be explained away.
If you know anything about JW beliefs, then you will know that we do not subscribe to the idea that life continues after death in another form, in another realm. The Bible simply does not teach such a thing.
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Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Mark 3:31-35:
"Then Jesus’ mother and his brothers came. Standing outside, they sent word to him, to summon him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him and they said to him, “Look, your mother and your brothers are outside looking for you.” 33 He answered them and said, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” 34 And looking at those who were sitting around him in a circle, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.”
Giving his mother over to the apostle John was the final act of a firstborn son entrusting the care of his mother, not to his then unbelieving relatives, but to a trusted spiritual brother. Her spiritual welfare was foremost in his mind.
I am telling the truth metis...it is an inconvenient one, but there is no dishonesty. What the Catholic Church says and what it does are two completely different things. God's command was NOT to even MAKE images of anything to be used in connection with worship. Has the Church obeyed this command?
He commanded that people not bow before these images....have we seen the people obey this command?
How is this not idolatry?
References please.....
You are being a little silly now, metis. To an ancient Jew, a 'graven' image was carved out of wood or stone. It was a three a dimensional religious statue of something or someone, used in worship. The golden calf, used in a festival to their God by the Israelites as representing YHWH was a graven image. Those who fell to participating in this idolatry were put to death by him.
Icons are religious images too, only two dimensional. They are also used in worship. Photographs can be idols if they depict images of a religious nature to facilitate worship. Don't MAKE them means exactly that. No need to go overboard on this.
It is not anti-Catholic bigotry to tell the truth. History attests to the fact that Roman Catholicism is not and never was "Christian" in its beliefs or practices.
Where will I find any mention of these in first century Christianity....?
Where did these come from? Certainly not from Christianity.
It would benefit everyone to know the full story, wouldn't it?
Bezalel was given divine abilities in craftsmanship so that the ark's adornments would be perfect. He and the ones assisting him followed the plans that God gave Moses explicitly, constructing the Ark from the materials contributed by the people. (Exodus 35:5, 7, 10, 12; 37:1-9)
When the tabernacle was completed and set up a year after the Exodus, Moses took the two stone tablets of the Law and put them into the Ark.
Next, Moses inserted the poles in the rings of the Ark, laid the cover on, brought it into the tent, and put up the screen that was to separate the Holy from the Most Holy. Then, as part of the inauguration ceremony, Moses anointed the Ark and all other furnishings with oil. From then on, when the priests disassembled the tabernacle to move camp, the same dividing screen, together with additional sealskins and blue cloth, was used to cover the Ark to prevent the people from looking upon it ‘for the least moment of time, lest they die.’ (Exodus 40:3, 9, 20, 21; Numbers 3:30, 31; 4:5, 6, 19, 20; 7:9; Deuteronomy 10:8; 31:9)
Moses was authorized to stand before the ark in the tabernacle, where God's voice instructed him. God's presence was represented visually by the Shechinah Light that emanated from between the cherubs. (Exodus 25:21-22)
The people were not permitted to see the ark under penalty of death.....only God's appointed craftsmen were permitted to construct it, and after Moses inaugurated it inside the tabernacle, it was not seen by anyone but Moses or his successors.
The copper serpent was used to heal the Israelites bitten by serpents that God sent to punish them. Anyone bitten could gaze at the serpent and be made well. It was not an idol used in worship. Later when the Israelites did begin to worship it, King Hezekiah had it crushed to pieces.
Jesus showed contempt for false worship too. Was he a bigot also? Or was he just exposing the truth? I make no apology for rejecting worship that has never been recognized by either God or his son. (Matthew 7:21-23)
I am sorry that you cannot acknowledge the plain truth.
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Again, you changed the context of what I posted. The issue I mentioned is can one pray for another, and the Catholic belief, regardless of the fact that you do not accept it in the context that they do, is that one may pray for another and that a person who has been accepted into heaven is not lost but may pray for those who are still alive. I said nothing about Mary supposedly being chosen as a "mediatrix", nor do Catholics have to pray through Mary to God at all.
Actually they came to believe as such, so maybe look this up: Heaven - Wikipedia Look down to 2.9 there.
False, and I already covered this above. Also, it shows up in the book of Maccabees, which was written long before Jesus' time, and we do know that this is what the early church did because it shows up even early in the 2nd century writings. The would have learned from the apostles and their appointees, which helped to expand understanding and sometimes supplement what would some day become the canon of the church. You know, the Christian canon that was selected by the Catholic Church that you constantly malign but whose Bible you accept, minus the Apocrypha of course.
Again, you just moved the goalposts, and that's so disingenuous of you to do. Mary was held in high regard, which does show up in the scriptural accounts I posted that you disregard. It's frustrating for me that you just manipulate things to serve your own self-interest.
Give proof, if you will, that the source was "pagan". Did you ever stop and think that sometimes titles are used by more than just one religion, such like the title of "king"? So, you make the claim, therefore post the linkage of specifically which "pagan religion" it came from as well as proof that the CC used it because of them. I guarantee that you can't do it.
Since I taught Christian theology for 14 years, yes, I did do and continue to do the research, but the difference between you and I is that I didn't allow myself to become brainwashed by any denomination.
So? Are you being so arrogant that just because you believe in "X" that this means that "X" must be true? A lot of people believe in a lot of things that aren't true, Deeje, and you and I are in their midst. I'm willing to admit that I certainly am not always right, but will you?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Again, all you are doing is taking your interpretation of what a "graven image" is and concluding that your interpretation is the only right one. What utter arrogance!
People kneeling before a statue doesn't mean they're praying to the statue! It's used as a reminder.
The issue is what is being worshiped, Deeje, and Catholic teaching forbids that it be a statue. Why is this so difficult for you to understand. Also, as previously mentioned, there are different interpretations as to what constitutes a "graven image", and I have looked into this and there are different interpretations also in Judaism. It is so pathetically arrogant of you to assume yours must be the only correct one.
That is so thoroughly disgusting, and it's is just so pathetic that you operate of such hate-filled and ignorant bigotry. You simply cannot get it into your head that different people can read the same verses and come up with different conclusions. Why is this so difficult for you to understand, Deeje? Maybe if you get off your high-horse and come down with the rest of us peons and do some serious objective studying you actually might be able to work past how you been so thoroughly brainwashed by the JW leadership.
Your dishonesty on this and some other matters as we've seen as my post was in response to the fact that you said nobody saw the Ark.
Sorry that you don't operate out of any objective nor intelligent study of what's written versus what you've been brainwashed to believe. And then you keep moving the goalposts when it's obvious that you have made an error.
I'm going to finish off with this, namely that Catholic positions certainly can be debated, but at least do so honestly. Don't fabricate positions that they don't believe in or teach. Don't assume that your JW leaders must always be right on everything. Maybe study some history that goes both before the NT was written and after it was written. Between the theologies of both Catholicism and that of your JW's, the latter is actually very weak and often nonsensical. They can't even get it right when and how the basic Biblical canon was selected that you use, seemingly "thinking" that it must have floated down from whatever and landed into some JW's hands.
@metis. I understand your defensiveness but I also understand what the Bible says about the "weeds" that were to be introduced into Christianity by God's adversary...the master of deception. Jesus gave that parable to illustrate what would happen in the succeeding centuries to the "church" that he started. Christianity was under attack from within even before the apostles passed off the earthly scene. Once their restraining influence was gone, at the close of the first century, the foretold apostasy gained full momentum. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-7; 1 Timothy 4:1-3) What we see in the horrendous history of the Catholic Church from its inception in the 4th century, is a mirror image of what happened in Judaism.....both went off on tangents involving conduct that God had already stated that he would not tolerate. Israel too developed a liking for the use of images and even brought their disgusting idols into God's place of worship. I do not have to tell you how that ended.
Since this same scenario was foretold for Christ's 'church', I see clearly in the history of Roman Catholicism, exactly what Christ and his apostles foretold. You may choose not to see it.....but it doesn't mean that others, once they are aware of the facts, will not want to make their own decisions about these things.
Paul's words at 2 Corinthians 5:7 are clear evidence that we are not to use visual things as an aid to worship.
He said...."We are walking by faith, not by sight." Does the church find that directive too difficult to follow?
Can you answer this question? To me it is an important one.....
Where will I find any mention of these in first century Christianity....?
Where did these things come from? Certainly not from Christianity.
Thank you for the link regarding "heaven".
Under Rabbinical Judaism, it says....
While the concept of Heaven (malkuth hashamaim מלכות השמים, the Kingdom of Heaven) is much discussed within the Christian and Islamic religions, the Jewish concept of the afterlife, sometimes known as olam haba, the World-to-come, is not discussed so often. The Torah has little to say on the subject of survival after death, but by the time of the rabbis two ideas had made inroads among the Jews: one, which is probably derived from Greek thought,[23] is that of the immortal soul which returns to its creator after death; the other, which is thought to be of Persian origin,[23] is that of resurrection of the dead.
Jewish writings refer to a "new earth" as the abode of mankind following the resurrection of the dead. Originally, the two ideas of immortality and resurrection were different but in rabbinic thought they are combined: the soul departs from the body at death but is returned to it at the resurrection. This idea is linked to another rabbinic teaching, that men's good and bad actions are rewarded and punished not in this life but after death, whether immediately or at the subsequent resurrection.[23] Around 1 CE, the Pharisees are said to have maintained belief in resurrection but the Sadducees are said to have denied it (Matt. 22:23)."
So we see here that the Bible's teachings about 'heaven and hell' were distorted in Judaism too. Christendom did exactly what Judaism had done before her....changed the concept of life and death to what the devil wants people to believe.....that you don't really die.
There is no use pursuing this topic with you metis...it is too close to home for you to be objective. No one has anything to fear from the truth....and sometimes it bites hard. We all have to decide for ourselves what and whom to believe. If we have Jesus as a model, we will not hold back for fear of stepping on anyone's toes....lives are at stake. Sometimes you have to hurt people to save them.
Since this same scenario was foretold for Christ's 'church', I see clearly in the history of Roman Catholicism, exactly what Christ and his apostles foretold. You may choose not to see it.....but it doesn't mean that others, once they are aware of the facts, will not want to make their own decisions about these things.
Paul's words at 2 Corinthians 5:7 are clear evidence that we are not to use visual things as an aid to worship.
He said...."We are walking by faith, not by sight." Does the church find that directive too difficult to follow?
Can you answer this question? To me it is an important one.....
Where will I find any mention of these in first century Christianity....?
Where did these things come from? Certainly not from Christianity.
Thank you for the link regarding "heaven".
Under Rabbinical Judaism, it says....
While the concept of Heaven (malkuth hashamaim מלכות השמים, the Kingdom of Heaven) is much discussed within the Christian and Islamic religions, the Jewish concept of the afterlife, sometimes known as olam haba, the World-to-come, is not discussed so often. The Torah has little to say on the subject of survival after death, but by the time of the rabbis two ideas had made inroads among the Jews: one, which is probably derived from Greek thought,[23] is that of the immortal soul which returns to its creator after death; the other, which is thought to be of Persian origin,[23] is that of resurrection of the dead.
Jewish writings refer to a "new earth" as the abode of mankind following the resurrection of the dead. Originally, the two ideas of immortality and resurrection were different but in rabbinic thought they are combined: the soul departs from the body at death but is returned to it at the resurrection. This idea is linked to another rabbinic teaching, that men's good and bad actions are rewarded and punished not in this life but after death, whether immediately or at the subsequent resurrection.[23] Around 1 CE, the Pharisees are said to have maintained belief in resurrection but the Sadducees are said to have denied it (Matt. 22:23)."
So we see here that the Bible's teachings about 'heaven and hell' were distorted in Judaism too. Christendom did exactly what Judaism had done before her....changed the concept of life and death to what the devil wants people to believe.....that you don't really die.
There is no use pursuing this topic with you metis...it is too close to home for you to be objective. No one has anything to fear from the truth....and sometimes it bites hard. We all have to decide for ourselves what and whom to believe. If we have Jesus as a model, we will not hold back for fear of stepping on anyone's toes....lives are at stake. Sometimes you have to hurt people to save them.