Lets contemplate the crucifiction

Repox · Apr 8, 2017

Repox said:
I have an alternate explanation, which is contrary to Christians beliefs, but is not in dispute inasmuch as the Christian version has little evidence, just Church sponsored stories. So, what really happened? Admittedly, my views are influenced by a serious of dreams and visions. Don't bother with the Satan gave them to you, etc., I am stubborn and won't change my mind.

Briefly, here is what I think happened. God came into the world as a man (Jesus) to "give testimony" to his chosen people. Because God is a duality, I believe Rev. 11 about the two witnesses is the true story. I had a dream about Jesus being beaten to death by a Roman soldier, so I don't believe in the crucifixion story. The real story is too horrible to believe, and it lacks drama, like interesting and dramatic Jesus stories and, of course, the crucifixion story. I don't believe Jesus walked on water or did those other miraculous things like healing many afflicted people. He just gave testimony to his chosen people. But the real story lacked drama or romantic twists, so miraculous Jesus stories were added. Unfortunately for God's chosen people and humanity, God (Jesus) was rejected and murdered ("The beast (Satan) that comes from the abyss (universe) will attack them, and overpower and kill them (duality of God)" Rev. 11:7. Satan took possession of the Roman soldier to kill Jesus. Jesus was not the son of God sent to sacrifice for the sins of humans, and to therefore guarantee salvation. Jesus stories are not easy to believe, it takes a lot of faith. Mostly, they are not true. The real story has never been told. I only have ideas about bits and pieces. I am certain, however, Jesus was not crucified. He was murdered by a Roman solder and left to rot on the ground. More than anything, the real story condemns humans for rejecting Jesus, and allowing his body to rot on the ground. I don't believe Jesus was placed in a tomb. After laying on the ground for 31/2 days, (Rev.11:9) Jesus (God) ascended up into heaven. Not a very dramatic story, it had to be improved.

I want to add a theological statement about freewill to my story about Jesus (God). I had a dream about God's total awareness of everything. There were many time frames in a long row similar to an old filmstrip. I recall about a dozen frames. Each frame had about a half dozen names and images of nations in vertical order. Images consisted mostly of symbols related to world nations. Nations on each time frame were in hierarchy order based on their positions in relationship to world power struggles. At the top of the frames, names of powerful nations were listed. Each frame had a different configuration of nations and images related to the progression of time. I didn't have enough time to decipher all of the meanings, each time strip was unique as power struggles and world events unfold. In each frame, there were about a half dozen names and images of nations. My best analogy is a box of children's toys with blocks and various other playthings, except time-frame symbols corresponded to world events and nations. Much of my dream was about recent time frames for struggles between Russia and other nations with the word "Russia" in several frames. On the right side of the time strip approaching current times, the word Russia was moving to the top of the frames. It seemed to be a warning that Russia is becoming a threat to world peace. I got the impression that God knows each time-frame in detail, which includes future time-frames.

It appeared as if each frame was frozen, nothing could change it. My impression is God cannot, or will not, change world events. I have thought about the length of time for each frame. Each frame may represent events more than time. Perhaps, each frame represented one year, or even less, as advanced technology and trade continues to accelerate the pace of international dependence and changes throughout the world. I am not certain. Most interesting for the time strip was the changing allocation of nations in world power–struggles. I must admit, describing this dream has been a challenge; there were many details with powerful symbols.

I believe my time frame dream also is a story about freewill. As civilization has progressed, humans have made good and bad choices to chart their destiny. Assuming God intervened in human affairs (Bible), He offered humans choices to either obey or disobey His commandments. Humans are not robots, they can make choices to charter their destinies. If humans "obeyed God's commandments," there would be a holy order in the world (Rev. 21 & 22). Some may say humans have no choices, God made us like robots to fulfill predetermined programs for civilized societies. Therefore, there is no freewill. If we are like robots, we can't blame Satan for being evil. In short, there would be no good or evil, just robotic creatures. The Old Testament is a story about God's chosen peoples rebelling against God's Commandments. I believe God's chosen people are surrogates for humankind. The OT period was a crucial test for humans ability to obey God's commandments. I am not suggesting it was the beginning of the end, I am just saying it is a history of humans making freewill choices to accept or reject God. Rejecting God's Commandment is setting oneself apart from God, which means humans suffer the consequences of making bad choices.

ZooGirl02 · Apr 11, 2017

viole said:
That is not what the Bible says --> Isa. 45:5-7 : "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, who does all these things"

Or is that another instance of metaphorical language or of things taken out of context?

Ciao

- viole

This might be a matter of translation. The only translation which I trust that I found which uses the word "evil" is the Douay-Rheims version of the Bible and that is a very old translation. All of the modern versions which I trust do not use the word "evil" but use the word "woe" instead. Perhaps the word "evil" meant something different in this context back when the Douay-Rheims Bible was made.

MonkeyFire · Apr 11, 2017

@op
R u a muslim?

I'm personally a Christian pacifist. Safe not saved.

viole · Apr 11, 2017

ZooGirl02 said:
This might be a matter of translation. The only translation which I trust that I found which uses the word "evil" is the Douay-Rheims version of the Bible and that is a very old translation. All of the modern versions which I trust do not use the word "evil" but use the word "woe" instead. Perhaps the word "evil" meant something different in this context back when the Douay-Rheims Bible was made.

Well, I would like to read what Hebrew experts think about that.

Ciao

- viole

Kelly of the Phoenix · Apr 11, 2017

Cobol said:
How much sense does this make?

When your super cool teacher who has been getting you the best gigs in the country suddenly gets killed for being a traitor, you might just snap and start over-thinking why it happened instead of the obvious (if you chase people around with whips in a public arena during a holiday season where the cops are already US-levels of trigger-happy, you will get killed).

Stevicus said:
I never could make much sense out of it either. And why make an instrument of execution the primary symbol of worship?

I can't remember when the cross became the symbol. Many places used bread and fish instead as the coded logo of Christianity.

Deeje said:
You're not only a mind reader but you can read the mind of God....how amazing!

Many Christians believe the bible is the Word of God. Read it and you've read God's mind, really.

Deeje said:
Did you ever hear the saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"?

It's not like Jesus taught us everything there is to know in life either, to be honest. True, he didn't live very long, so it's understandable, but his ministry is the milk and we eventually have to grow out of that and take the meat instead.

Cobol said:
If Jesus died, there’s no miraculous resurrection, and if there’s a resurrection, there’s no sacrifice through death. Miracle or sacrifice—you can’t have it both ways. The gospels don’t say that he died for our sins but that he had a rough couple of days for our sins.

LOL, exactly.

Jesus: Don't worry Cobol, I'll pay your bills.

*three days later*

Jesus: Oh, yeah, I cancelled my checking account. The utility companies said you'll be getting a bill now. Sign off on it or they'll take your house.

URAVIP2ME said:
Satan and the rest of the angels were created sinless.

You wanted verses to back up the OP but don't provide verses to justify this?

URAVIP2ME said:
Adam and Eve were created sinless.

Only in the sense they didn't know what it was. They could still screw up.

URAVIP2ME said:
God's main attributes or qualities are: love, justice, mercy, and wisdom.

And tantrum-prone. And petty. And uncreative. And fickle.

URAVIP2ME said:
Since we can Not resurrect oneself or another we need someone who can do that for us.

Become CPR certified.

URAVIP2ME said:
Unlike us, Satan, Adam and Eve were perfect in the sense they could only sin on purpose, Not by mistake.

That's the exact opposite of what happened in that story.

URAVIP2ME said:
God forces No one to obey Him.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Proverbs 16:9 ESV / 836 helpful votes
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

John 6:44 ESV / 28 helpful votes
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Proverbs 16:4 ESV / 27 helpful votes
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV / 22 helpful votes
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Ephesians 1:5 ESV / 19 helpful votes
He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Romans 9:18-20 ESV / 18 helpful votes
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

(God forgive me, for I find myself quoting that jerk Paul more often that I usually would, but these are just so funny)

Exodus 4:21 ESV / 18 helpful votes
And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

(Most blatant example of forcing the issue, as seen above.)

Psalm 139:16 ESV / 14 helpful votes
Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Isaiah 45:7 ESV / 7 helpful votes
I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.

(We don't really have much of a say in the matter, except when the authors want to blame us randomly.)

URAVIP2ME said:
Noah and family survived the Flood by obeying God.
The Earth was filled with violence according to Genesis 6:11
So, if God had Not taken the Flood action the wicked would have killed off all the righteous ones, and we simply would Not be here today.

Noah then went on a bender and got buck naked and then cursed a grandchild because his dad saw Pops naked. Yeah ... way to improve the stock, God.

Cobol said:
So was Jesus a liar, lunatic or legend?

As we don't have any of his writings (if he made any), we can't tell. The AUTHORS can be all of that, of course, but the only Jesus we see is a character. Even if he's based on a real person, the person in the book is a character.

shmogie said:
allah, what allah ? Are you talking about the fictional god that ol' mo

You realize it is just Arabic for God and that Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians would use the exact same word AND it's etymologically related to El, the original Top God of the Hebrew pantheon?

ZooGirl02 said:
God didn't create evil and He didn't create sin either.

See Isaiah 45:7, above

A Vestigial Mote said:
Let's say a volcano was erupting on an island, during a hurricane and a tsunami was on the way. Meaning it was going to be unbelievably dangerous to stick around. There's a village of people just at the base of a volcano, and you have the opportunity to jump on a helicopter and get out, or go try and help some people.

Why not just let the tsunami quench the lava?

"kill 2 birds with one stone", as it were? LOL

A Vestigial Mote · Apr 11, 2017

KenS said:
FINALLY you got something right.

As opposed to you deciding what is wrong?

So, you created your own thoughts and conclusions and then tore down your own thoughts an conclusions. (Not hard to do). I tore them down too.

Wow... way to COMPLETELY miss my point. I get in so many conversations like these, and I keep getting responses like yours... it is no wonder that believers believe as they do. It becomes very obvious why some people end up needing a catch-all explanation like God to fill the gaps.

I never, AT ALL, stated that I should be the one to decide what is wrong, or that I should declare what "sin" is. I have no such aspirations WHATSOEVER. That you even thought this based on my comments amazes me.

I am sort of at a loss as to figure out how much more simply I have to try and put this in order for you to understand, because simply stating it as I would to any average person just doesn't seem to cut it (I have to admit to partially trying to be a jerk about this, but mostly I am being 100% honest... I mean seriously... what the hell). My point was that God can do no wrong automatically BECAUSE HE DECIDES WHAT "WRONG" IS. He makes the rules, and He can just as easily remake them, or move the goal posts or DO WHATEVER HE CHOOSES - and it isn't "wrong". It can't be. Right? Do you accept that premise? Or do you believe that God is capable of wrong-doing? And if He is, then who is it that decides that any of God's actions are "wrong?" Who can even fathom actions at that level and judge God? If God exists, and He is the creator, then NO ONE CAN. Right? Anything He does is RIGHT, no matter what it is. Killing children? Automatically the "right" move if God did it. Devastating the Earth and killing billions of humans and innocent animals? Completely a-okay if God is the hand making the moves. Giving you cancer, putting you in an accident in which you lose your limbs, taking away your eyesight and asking your father to murder you to prove his faith? All of that is "right" if God is the one enacting it all.

All of this assumes that God exists (which is something that YOU do - however I DO NOT). But I am trying to give you a view of your own belief that you may not have even considered. And this is the reason I stated that, with the crucifixion, God was sacrificing Himself/Jesus/Whatever-the-hell-being-it-was in order to atone for "sins" He himself DEFINED. "Wrong" is what God says it is (again, provided He exists), and so when He decides to take some goofy action to atone for the sins (instead of just declaring it so), He is literally punishing himself. He makes the rules, and so it is within His power to forgive sin or grant grace or absolve souls or whatever - He can do any of that at any time - because the only "sins" exist as rules HE HIMSELF DECLARED. No one else is in control of the definition of "sin", correct? And so He is the ultimate authority? If so, then you have to admit that He could have gone about the process of atonement in any way He wanted. Which means that the crucifixion was arbitrary. He just happened to select that as the way. Again - no sacrifice was necessary, and therefore a sacrifice made is made in vain.

ZooGirl02 · Apr 11, 2017

Kelly of the Phoenix said:
When your super cool teacher who has been getting you the best gigs in the country suddenly gets killed for being a traitor, you might just snap and start over-thinking why it happened instead of the obvious (if you chase people around with whips in a public arena during a holiday season where the cops are already US-levels of trigger-happy, you will get killed).

I can't remember when the cross became the symbol. Many places used bread and fish instead as the coded logo of Christianity.

Many Christians believe the bible is the Word of God. Read it and you've read God's mind, really.

It's not like Jesus taught us everything there is to know in life either, to be honest. True, he didn't live very long, so it's understandable, but his ministry is the milk and we eventually have to grow out of that and take the meat instead.

LOL, exactly.

Jesus: Don't worry Cobol, I'll pay your bills.

*three days later*

Jesus: Oh, yeah, I cancelled my checking account. The utility companies said you'll be getting a bill now. Sign off on it or they'll take your house.

You wanted verses to back up the OP but don't provide verses to justify this?

Only in the sense they didn't know what it was. They could still screw up.

And tantrum-prone. And petty. And uncreative. And fickle.

Become CPR certified.

That's the exact opposite of what happened in that story.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Proverbs 16:9 ESV / 836 helpful votes
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

John 6:44 ESV / 28 helpful votes
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Proverbs 16:4 ESV / 27 helpful votes
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV / 22 helpful votes
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Ephesians 1:5 ESV / 19 helpful votes
He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Romans 9:18-20 ESV / 18 helpful votes
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

(God forgive me, for I find myself quoting that jerk Paul more often that I usually would, but these are just so funny)

Exodus 4:21 ESV / 18 helpful votes
And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

(Most blatant example of forcing the issue, as seen above.)

Psalm 139:16 ESV / 14 helpful votes
Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Isaiah 45:7 ESV / 7 helpful votes
I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.

(We don't really have much of a say in the matter, except when the authors want to blame us randomly.)

Noah then went on a bender and got buck naked and then cursed a grandchild because his dad saw Pops naked. Yeah ... way to improve the stock, God.

As we don't have any of his writings (if he made any), we can't tell. The AUTHORS can be all of that, of course, but the only Jesus we see is a character. Even if he's based on a real person, the person in the book is a character.

You realize it is just Arabic for God and that Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians would use the exact same word AND it's etymologically related to El, the original Top God of the Hebrew pantheon?

See Isaiah 45:7, above

Why not just let the tsunami quench the lava?

"kill 2 birds with one stone", as it were? LOL

As I already said, I think it is a translation issue. The only translation I have that I trust which translates that word as "evil" is the Douay-Rheims version fo the Bible and that is a very old translation. None of the modern translations translate it as "evil".

pearl · Apr 12, 2017

Stevicus said:
And why make an instrument of execution the primary symbol of worship?

The empty cross is a symbol of the Resurrection. Without this belief there is no Christianity.

URAVIP2ME · Apr 12, 2017

pcarl said:
The empty cross is a symbol of the Resurrection. Without this belief there is no Christianity.

I agree in that if Jesus was Not resurrected there is No Christianity.
It is my understanding of Exodus 20:4 and Deuteronomy 5:8-9 that we are Not to make carved images in connection to religion. Rather, as 2 Corinthians 5:7 says to walk by faith and Not by sight. ( sighted objects )
Even as people who loved President Kennedy do Not make a miniature empty gun as jewelry or a wall hanging.
People kiss crosses, but who would kiss a replica of the gun that killed Kennedy because that is abhorrent to them.

The Romans often held mass executions, so to add a cross beam without power tools would have been a lot of extra un-necessary work. To me, Acts of the Apostles 5:30; Acts of the Apostles 10:39 and Acts of the Apostles 13:29 is saying Jesus was hung up on a tree. No extra cross bar would be needed.

URAVIP2ME · Apr 12, 2017

MonkeyFire said:
I'm personally a Christian pacifist. Safe not saved.

Seems to me there is a difference between being a pacifist and being neutral in world affairs.
Jesus and his first-century followers were neutral, and Not even getting involved in the affairs of the day between the Jews and the Romans, but remained neutral.

However, in my view, Jesus was Not a pacifist because Warrior Jesus will lead angelic armies according to Revelation 19:14-16. Jesus will carry on 'righteous warfare' according to Revelation 19:11 meaning No one righteous will be in harm's way as they are in men's wars.

The humble figurative ' sheep ' of Matthew 25:31-33,37 are both: ' safe and saved '.
Safe and saved through the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14. - Isaiah 26:20.
Safe and saved (rescued/delivered) to be part of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth begins.

pearl · Apr 13, 2017

URAVIP2ME said:
Even as people who loved President Kennedy do Not make a miniature empty gun as jewelry or a wall hanging.

The cross is a symbol. A symbol points to the reality. According to John it is the cross on which Jesus was glorified. As far as kissing the cross it is an act of veneration. Do you not have keepsakes and photos of a loved one, kept in a special place? Jesus is the believing communities 'loved one'.

URAVIP2ME said:
Jesus was hung up on a tree. No extra cross bar would be needed.

To distinguish between the wooden cross and a tree is rather silly. If you would rather a tree, go for it.

Ben Avraham · Apr 13, 2017

pcarl said:
The empty cross is a symbol of the Resurrection. Without this belief there is no Christianity.

Did you really mean the empty cross or the empty tomb? Perhaps you'll better offer fixing that or getting ready for a rain of demands for metaphorical explanations.

pearl · Apr 13, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
Did you really mean the empty cross or the empty tomb? Perhaps you'll better offer fixing that or getting ready for a rain of demands for metaphorical explanations.

The empty cross as opposed to the crucifix.

Lets contemplate the crucifiction

Repox

Truth Seeker

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member

viole

Ontological Naturalist

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member

pearl

Well-Known Member

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member

pearl

Well-Known Member

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member

pearl

Well-Known Member