Resurrection of Christ: Literal fact or spiritual reality?

BilliardsBall · Feb 28, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
Okay, let's make a deal, if you mention to me any thing in terms of a document in the Tanach that approves bodily resurrection and, if I fail to explain to you the real meaning of the quote, I promise to review my views. Nu! That's the only chance you have to silence me. Are you bold enough to take the challenge?

Sure, I'll take your "challenge":

1 Kings 17:17-24 (KJV)
17 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.
18 And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?
19 And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.
20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.
24 And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.

Elisha resurrected the son of the great Shunammite woman... This interesting account is recorded in 2 Kings 4. The Shunammite woman had no children. For a woman to be barren in those days was a great source of shame. The word says that her husband was old, which would imply he was unable to produce seed. However, because the Shunammite woman was genuinely kind and generous to the prophet Elisha, he told her she would have a child in one year's time. God healed her and her husband and she conceived and gave birth to a son. Later on while working out in the fields something disastrous happens to her son (a head injury or possibly heat stroke) and he dies. The Shunammite woman hastily went to the prophet Elisha, and she insisted he go to her son and raise him from the dead.

2 Kings 4:35 (KJV)
35 Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.

Kings 13:21 (KJV)
21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

Even after he was dead, the anointing still remaining in Elisha's bones raised someone from the dead. Earlier in 2 Kings 2:9, Elisha had boldly requested that he receive a double portion of Elijah's anointing. However, after Elisha died it looked like it was too late for him to raise twice as many people from the dead as Elijah. Who would have ever thought that touching Elisha's bones could raise someone from the dead; certainly not the men that were burying him! Clearly the seeds of faith we sow in the brief time we are in this world continue to grow and accomplish things even after we are long gone.

I think, Ben, that if you deny the three passages above, you are simply disbelieving the Tanakh is God's Word. So why then would we argue?

BilliardsBall · Feb 28, 2017

1.

adrian009 said:
Moses and the prophets of Israel prophesised their Messiah but expressed it in the language of symbols. When Christ appeared, the Jews rejected Him, although they were expecting His coming.

Why did they deny Him when He announced Himself? Because they had followed literal interpretations of the Hebrew Bible and were blind to the spiritual reality of Christ. They had not perceived the inner significances of the Holy Bible. They were expecting the Christ, but His coming is conditioned upon certain fulfilments and prophetic announcements. Among the signs of His appearance is that He shall come from an unknown place, whereas Jesus was known to have come from Nazareth. We know his home, and we are acquainted with his mother.

Second, one of the signs or Messianic conditions is that His scepter would be an iron rod, and this Christ has not even a wooden staff.

Third, He was to be seated upon the throne of David, whereas this Messianic king is in the utmost state of poverty and has not even a mat.

Fourth, He was to conquer the East and the West. This person has not even conquered a village. How can he be the Messiah?

Fifth, He was to promulgate the laws of the Bible. This one has not only failed to promulgate the laws of the Bible, but he has broken the law of the sabbath.

Sixth, the Messiah was to gather together all the Jews who were scattered in Palestine and restore them to honor and prestige, but this one has degraded the Jews instead of uplifting them.

Seventh, during His sovereignty even the animals were to enjoy blessings and comfort, for according to the prophetic texts, He should establish peace to such a universal extent that the eagle and quail would live together, the lion and deer would feed in the same meadow, the wolf and lamb would lie down in the same pasture. In the human kingdom warfare was to cease entirely; spears would be turned into pruning hooks and swords into plowshares. Now we see in the day of this would-be Messiah such injustice prevails that even he himself is sacrificed. How could he be the promised Christ?

And so the Jews spoke in regards to Jesus and rejected His claims.

Adapted from - ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 198-199)

1. It's ISRAEL, not PALESTINE. Get your Bible facts accurate. Palestine is a Roman name meant to humiliate the Jews, "Land of the Philistines."

2. Much of what you wrote (or edited) is confusing the issue. The Jewish people as above were seeking signs of the Return of Christ, not His Advent to make peace for man upon the cross. It's that simple.

3. Some of the other stuff about dishonoring the Sabbath, when He demonstrated He was the LORD OF THE SABBATH, or that Jesus DEGRADED Jews, is just . . . wrong. Who says such things? Do you ever hear any born again preachers saying the Lord Jesus Christ, born a Jew, dying a Jew, with 100% Jewish disciples, DEGRADED Jews?!

Repent!

Ben Avraham · Feb 28, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
Sure, I'll take your "challenge":

1 Kings 17:17-24 (KJV) 17 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him. 18 And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son? 19 And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed. 20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son? 21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. 22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth. 24 And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.

Elisha resurrected the son of the great Shunammite woman... This interesting account is recorded in 2 Kings 4. The Shunammite woman had no children. For a woman to be barren in those days was a great source of shame. The word says that her husband was old, which would imply he was unable to produce seed. However, because the Shunammite woman was genuinely kind and generous to the prophet Elisha, he told her she would have a child in one year's time. God healed her and her husband and she conceived and gave birth to a son. Later on while working out in the fields something disastrous happens to her son (a head injury or possibly heat stroke) and he dies.

The Shunammite woman hastily went to the prophet Elisha, and she insisted he go to her son and raise him from the dead. 2 Kings 4:35 (KJV) 35 Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes. Kings 13:21 (KJV) 21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood
up on his feet.

Even after he was dead, the anointing still remaining in Elisha's bones raised someone from the dead. Earlier in 2 Kings 2:9, Elisha had boldly requested that he receive a double portion of Elijah's anointing. However, after Elisha died it looked like it was too late for him to raise twice as many people from the dead as Elijah. Who would have ever thought that touching Elisha's bones could raise someone from the dead; certainly not the men that were burying him! Clearly the seeds of faith we sow in the brief time we are in this world continue to grow and accomplish things even after we are long gone.

I think, Ben, that if you deny the three passages above, you are simply disbelieving the Tanakh is God's Word. So why then would we argue?

You err for not knowing the Scriptures that is the Word of God. You read the texts under the spell of Christian preconceived notions in the hope to promote resurrection in order to enhance the Christian claim that Jesus resurrected. Both cases, the one of Elijah and that of Elisha are one and the same if you focus on the details of how both prophets effected the recovery of the breath of life of both boys. Only in the case of Elisha, the struggle to recover the breath of life was caused as a result of the time the boy spent in the field with his father, which was probably a very hot day in the Summer. Both prophets were effecting resuscitation as a result of sunstrokes. To understand it so, you must compare with the process of resuscitation today if you add the paraphernalia of the time. Both Elijah and Elisha were chairmen of schools of prophets and they were qua professors on first-aid emergencies. I am sorry if I have rained on your parade but you must focus on the Logic of Biblical understanding.

Now, as regards to the throwing of a body over the bones of Elisha, it was so-to-speak a reading of the chronicles of the prophets aka the annals of the prophets as an act of recollection of their memories but embellished to enhance the greatness of the prophet. Elisha with the event of a dead body thrown in his cave and Elijah with his being taken up to heavens in a whirlwind. (II Kings 2:1) All were recorded in the annals of the prophets aka the chronicles of the prophets with all the embellishments to enhance the greatness of the prophets. Now, try to understand according to Logic. How could the body of a prophet of the size of Elisha have been laying there in an open tomb? Not Elisha's I guarantee you.

Well, you didn't get it. And do you know why? Because the Tanach was the gospel of Jesus and he would not teach a gospel of contradictions. His gospel says that once dead, no one would ever return from the grave. (II Samuel 12:23; Psalms 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9)

Dawnofhope · Feb 28, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
1. It's ISRAEL, not PALESTINE. Get your Bible facts accurate. Palestine is a Roman name meant to humiliate the Jews, "Land of the Philistines."

Abdu'l-Baha passed away in 1921. The land at that stage was called Palestine not Israel. Israel didn't come into existence as a Nation until 1948.

Israel - Wikipedia

BilliardsBall said:
2. Much of what you wrote (or edited) is confusing the issue. The Jewish people as above were seeking signs of the Return of Christ, not His Advent to make peace for man upon the cross. It's that simple.

What I've written is clear. The point is that the Jewish people did not recognise Jesus' Messianic claims as they interpreted their scripture literally, not symbolically.

BilliardsBall said:
3. Some of the other stuff about dishonoring the Sabbath, when He demonstrated He was the LORD OF THE SABBATH, or that Jesus DEGRADED Jews, is just . . . wrong. Who says such things? Do you ever hear any born again preachers saying the Lord Jesus Christ, born a Jew, dying a Jew, with 100% Jewish disciples, DEGRADED Jews?!

Go back and read what was written. The author is reflecting on how the Jews would have felt about Jesus' approach to the Sabbath and other claims He made.

BilliardsBall said:
Repent!

It is the Christians, not Baha'is who have demonstrated anti-Semitism through out the centuries. What percentage of Germans were Christian when Hitler was elected? Nearly 95%.

CG Didymus · Feb 28, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
Please tell me where in the Bible God says, "Now, now, don't take all these prophecies literally. . . "?

Thank you.

Where in the NT does it say not to take the resurrection literal? Yet, that's what the Baha'i Faith does. They make it only a "symbolic" resurrection. So what I'd like to know is... what did you Christians do with his body?

CG Didymus · Feb 28, 2017

adrian009 said:
Dear Cush,

Thank you for sharing your faith in Christ.

Paul says the resurrected Christ appeared to him last (1 Corinthians 15:7-9). However the accounts of the appearance of Christ to Paul recorded in Acts (Chapters 9, 22, and 26) strongly suggest descriptions of a vision. In one instance while in a trance praying, Paul describes hearing Christ (Acts 22:17-21). The most significant appearance to Paul is on the road to Damascus ((Acts 9:4, Acts 22:7, Acts 26:12). Christ asks Paul 'why are you persecuting me?'. However we know that Christ has been crucified, rather His followers are persecuted. Why does the risen Christ say to Paul 'why are you persecuting Me?' if the risen Christ is not the living Church? Of course it is Paul who continually refers to the living body of Christ with the Church.

So the true meaning of the resurrection IMHO

The true meaning of the resurrection?

Jesus came from heaven:
John 3:13, John 6:38, John 6:41-2

The risen body of Christ is the Church:
Roman 12:5 'one body in Christ'
1 Corinthians 12:12-13 'baptised into one body'
1 Corinthians 12:25 'no schism in the body'
1 Corinthians 12:27 'you are the body of Christ'
Colossians 1:18 'He is the head of the body'
Ephesians 2:5-6 'members of His body, and His flesh'

The spiritual resurrection:
1 Corinthians 15:42-4 'it is raised in a spiritual body'
1 Corinthians 15:50 'flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom'

I do not require a belief in a physically resurrected Jesus to believe in Him. Besides such a belief would be contrary to science and reason.

God Bless and Best Wishes

So when the apostles saw the "risen" Christ they were seeing themselves? How about when Baha'is see visions of Abdu'l Baha? Is it a spirit that looks like he did as a human? How about Catholics that see Mary? What are they seeing? The apostles claim they touched Jesus and he ate with them and that he said that he is not a spirit because he has flesh and bone? Was he mistaken and didn't realize that he was dead? Or, did the gospel writer make it up? Or, I know it's symbolic, so tell me the true meaning of having "flesh" and "bone"? Dog gone, I know the answer. They were the risen Christ and were touching and eating with each other and of course they had flesh and bone. Duh.

Dawnofhope · Feb 28, 2017

CG Didymus said:
The apostles claim they touched Jesus and he ate with them and that he said that he is not a spirit because he has flesh and bone? Was he mistaken and didn't realize that he was dead? Or, did the gospel writer make it up? Or, I know it's symbolic, so tell me the true meaning of having "flesh" and "bone"? Dog gone, I know the answer. They were the risen Christ and were touching and eating with each other and of course they had flesh and bone. Duh.

I posted this yesterday to another:

Admittedly this too could be a compelling argument for a physical resurrection. Jesus has appeared not as a spirit, but physically as flesh and bones. Lets consider this further by considering the verse in context.

"And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
And he took it, and did eat before them.
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.." Luke 24:36-45)

In this context the word 'spirit' is used, not in a benevolent manner, but as something threatening and negative. If we understand that the resurrected Christ is symbolic of the living Church and the believers resurrected from the death of unbelief, then there is reason for the apostles to be afraid. They were known associates of Christ and identified leaders of His Cause. Opposition had been aroused to the extent the authorities had crucified Christ. The apostles realised that the Cause of Christ did not die with their beloved, but instead was alive and well. They had good reason to be fearful for their lives. Consider that after Jesus was arrested His apostles forsook Him and fled (Matthew 26:56). Peter even denied Him three times to save HIs life (Matthew 26:69-75).

So when the apostles first saw Christianity still alive they feared for their lives. But then they realised that the Cause of Christ (symbolised by spirit) should not frighten them as it had qualities of substance (symbolised by flesh and bones) they became assured. They resolved that they should devote themselves to HIs cause. If this meant sacrificing their lives for His cause then they would be happy for this was a Cause worth dying for. For Christ had taught 'he who loses his life for My sake shall will find it' (Matthew 10:39). Therefore Paul calls the believers the 'flesh' and 'bones' of Christ (Ephesians 5:29-30).

Later in this verse Christ giving food can be likened to giving spiritual guidance and sustenance to the believers representing the body of the risen church. We could also understand it as the apostles accepting their rightful role as leaders of the Church.

There are other understandings that can be gleaned from this symbolism but this will suffice for now.

CG Didymus said:
So when the apostles saw the "risen" Christ they were seeing themselves?

No, they were understanding who they were and what they had to do.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures. Luke 24:45

As an aside I thought you would like this site from the Christian apologetics

Jesus' Resurrection was physical | CARM Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

Doesn't look too good for the Baha'is! At least we are a world religion and not a cult

Beth Stitely · Feb 28, 2017

Jesus' resurrection was a physical resurrection. That's the whole point. The scriptures declare a physical resurrection. Those who deny a physical resurrection deny the deity of Christ.

Beth Stitely · Feb 28, 2017

Dawnofhope · Feb 28, 2017

Beth Stitely said:
Jesus' resurrection was a physical resurrection. That's the whole point. The scriptures declare a physical resurrection. Those who deny a physical resurrection deny the deity of Christ.

Nice to see you back on RF

So physical resurrection = diety of Christ?

Beth Stitely · Feb 28, 2017

Yes back on RF, when they let me go early at work..(not often...LOL)
Also yes, physical resurrection, among other things = diety of Christ

Dawnofhope · Feb 28, 2017

Beth Stitely said:
Yes back on RF, when they let me go early at work..(not often...LOL)
Also yes, physical resurrection, among other things = diety of Christ

Nice to have some down time and I must get you that APC next week

You might like to check out my perspective on Jesus as 'Son of God'

A Baha'i perspective on Jesus as the 'Son of God'

I will put together a Baha'i perspective on Christ's resurrection soon. Any questions or criticisms...I'm ready to go.

My next topics will probably be the Divinity of Christ and The Christian view of salvation.

Beth Stitely · Feb 28, 2017

...how about the Baha'i view of salvation?...or the Baha'i view of the non-divinity of Christ?
I've been reading on tawhid, shema and the Trinity...turns out the Trinity trumps (of course, that's bad pun these days...ha ha )

Dawnofhope · Feb 28, 2017

Beth Stitely said:
...how about the Baha'i view of salvation?...or the Baha'i view of the non-divinity of Christ?
I've been reading on tawhid, shema and the Trinity...turns out the Trinity trumps (of course, that's bad pun these days...ha ha )

I posted this earlier in this thread to another in regards to Jesus being a physical incarnation of God:

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Scripture seems to imply that Jesus can not possibly be God incarnate.

Perhaps it would be better to think of Jesus as being a perfect image or reflection of Gods' divine attributes?

Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So in this manner Moses also speaks as God

Deuteronomy 29:2-6
"These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the Lord your God."

Dawnofhope · Feb 28, 2017

Beth Stitely said:
...how about the Baha'i view of salvation?...or the Baha'i view of the non-divinity of Christ?
I've been reading on tawhid, shema and the Trinity...turns out the Trinity trumps (of course, that's bad pun these days...ha ha )

In regards to the exclusivity of Christianity:

Lets consider the context of John 14:6

Jesus is speaking to His disciples who of course are all, like Jesus are all Jews. He has just informed them of His impending martyrdom. They are distraught and He is comforting them. When He says "I am the way, the truth, the light, nobody goes to the Father except through me" He is reiterating that He is the Promised One that the Jews have been waiting for and they need to turn to Him, not to another.

The world of the Jews did not even remotely approach the type of global vision that we have now. The Jews' world vision was confined to surrounding regions throughout the Middle East and what was in the Tanakh. Most Jews were illiterate and relied on religious teachers for instruction.

It must be stated that in no way was Jesus referring to other religions. For example Islam would not come for nearly 600 years. Buddhism and Hinduism although present in India/Asia were unknown to the Jews.

Jesus is also indicating that He will be the new focal point for worship rather than the Temple. This becomes apparent with considering the Olivet discourse (Matthew 24), John 2:19-21, and Revelation 21:22

There are scripture that indicate despite the Jews rejection of their Messiah, the issue of whether or not they are saved is not the main concern - see Romans Chapter 9 and 11 and Mark 3:28-30

It all comes down to interpretation of scripture. Christianity is so divided and has so many different understandings. One person or group understands the bible differently from another. One group insists that their way is the only way to see it. Then they start to see the other group as being misguided heretics, morally deficient, unreasonable, and spiritually blind. They start accusing the other of removing parts of the bible to suit themselves, to twist the words of God, and so it goes. We don't have bloodshed with masses of people dying in the name of Christianity like bygone ages but we have animosity and misunderstanding in the name of God. What loving and just God would expect a reasonable person to persist with such a religion let alone believe in Him?

"Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth, give birth to spirituality, and bring life and light to each heart. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division, it were better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure; but if the remedy should only aggravate the complaint it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion. All the holy prophets were as doctors to the soul; they gave prescriptions for the healing of mankind; thus any remedy that causes disease does not come from the great and supreme Physician." Baha'i writings

Dawnofhope · Feb 28, 2017

Beth Stitely said:
...how about the Baha'i view of salvation?...or the Baha'i view of the non-divinity of Christ?
I've been reading on tawhid, shema and the Trinity...turns out the Trinity trumps (of course, that's bad pun these days...ha ha )

Beyond those few words you could help me write the next post!

Beth Stitely · Feb 28, 2017

adrian009 said:
I posted this earlier in this thread to another in regards to Jesus being a physical incarnation of God:

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Scripture seems to imply that Jesus can not possibly be God incarnate.

Perhaps it would be better to think of Jesus as being a perfect image or reflection of Gods' divine attributes?

Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So in this manner Moses also speaks as God

Deuteronomy 29:2-6
"These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the Lord your God."[/

A perfect reflection of something makes it one and the same. So yes, Jesus is God.

Beth Stitely · Feb 28, 2017

I'm not working this RF site right....

FunctionalAtheist · Feb 28, 2017

adrian009 said:
Did Jesus physically rise from the dead or this an allegorical story?

Perhaps its both and maybe neither?

What is the best way of understanding this core Christian belief?

How is this even a debate? Debate worthy? It will boil down, in less than a 3 second timer, to logic, reason, and observation verses word-of-mouth, faith, and dogma!

Dawnofhope · Feb 28, 2017

Beth Stitely said:
I'm not working this RF site right....

Press the reply rectangle on the right hand side of the box, 'then' say what you want to

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