What is wrong with calling Islam religion of peace?

J2hapydna said:

Like I said they weren't regular Jews.

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What in the hell are you talking about?

"Regular Jews"?

J2hapydna said:

These guys were engaged in polytheism and gave themselves names such as the worshipper of Meccan gods such as Allah.

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What in the seven hells are you talking about?

I only said they adopt custom of naming their child with Arabic names, not Hebrew names, because the Jews living in Arabia for generations, can speak Arabic. I said nothing about them being "polytheistic". You were the ones who keep bringing up these Jews being polytheists.

If families lived long enough in foreign countries, they will learn to speak the languages, even while they keep their religion from home. I had only state that Jews can speak the language the country they were living in, and if generations lived there, they are bound to use Arab name for their child.

I never said that adopting the custom mean the Jews had converted to Arabic pagan religion. You are saying that, not me.

Either (A) you are misunderstanding what I am writing, or (B) you are using straw-man argument, because NOT ONCE did I ever say the Jewish people living in Arabia were "polytheists".

If it is the former, then I will make it very clear to you, that adopting the custom of naming a Arabic name for Jewish child, is not the same as converting to pagan religion.

If it is the later, then I would advise you to stop putting "your words" in my mouth. Those thoughts about Jews converting to paganism are your absurd idea, not mine.

gnostic said:

Titus and Josephus became close friend, and Josephus has been to Rome, when he was adopted and given the name Flavius. It had nothing to do with Josephus' hair color.

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As I said secular names such as Peter and Flavius etc. can be adopted by Jews. On the other hand Jews don't name themselves worshippers of Lord Jesus or worshipper of Lord Hanuman. They also don't usually call their own prophets, scholars and scribes Gods and Sons of God. These practices indicate that these communities were under stress and no longer acting with the pride dignity and standards that normal Jewish communities around the world are known to uphold. As I said, the Jewish exilarchs would not have trusted the early Muslims if what you are suggesting about MP was true.

The historical facts are that the Rashidun did repeal the horrible and unjust laws that Heraclius had passed against the Jews. It is also a fact that the Muslims restored the right of the exilarchs to rule their community. THESE are the known facts. The rest are just Umayyid stories who had a long history of antagonizing MP and adopted Islam under less than ideal circumstances. They needed these stories to justify their cruel rule

Yet, here you are telling me how MP went to war with Jews who worshipped Ezra as the Son of God and had names such as worshipper of the Meccan deity Allah. Who according to the Umayyid tale broke their agreements and were allied with the Meccans who collectively and individually were tormenting and attempting to assassinate MP at a time when the Muslim community had not waged war or attempted to assassinate anybody. You are telling us this as if this was some huge crime.

As I have told you even a Jewish rabbi in Jerusalem has told me that under these circumstances for any people Jewish or otherwise to act this way could be seen as acting treasonously. There are plenty of things in the Umayyid tales that are truly objectionable why don't you focus on them rather than point to stuff that even a rabbi doesn't find objectionable?

J2hapydna said:

On the other hand Jews don't name themselves worshippers of Lord Jesus or worshipper of Lord Hanuman. They also don't usually call their own prophets, scholars and scribes Gods and Sons of God.

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More dishonest straw-men from you. I said and claim no such things.

Where in the nine realms are you getting these loads of rubbish?

I thought you were just misunderstanding my replies. But no, now I believe that you are just being deceitful.

You are making these claims, not me.

I refuse to reply any further until you stop lying about things that I never have claimed.

J2hapydna said:

Yet, here you are telling me how MP went to war with Jews who worshipped Ezra as the Son of God and had names such as worshipper of the Meccan deity Allah. Who according to the Umayyid tale broke their agreements and were allied with the Meccans who collectively and individually were tormenting and attempting to assassinate MP at a time when the Muslim community had not waged war or attempted to assassinate anybody. You are telling us this as if this was some huge crime.

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Actually according to the ever so "reliable" Islamic history the Jewish tribe, a single one, tried to negotiate terms when Medina was under siege as a party of the besieged not a Meccan ally. They were the Banu Qurayza. Gabriel told Muhammad to attack them which again is just making up a reason to attack them. The Banu Nadir were attacked because Muhammad had a revelation about a plot which is just making up a reason to attack them. So there is no evidence of any betrayal just a fiction made up. More so both tribes rejected Muhammad's claims of being a prophet. This seems more likely the reason they were attacked if the whole story is not fake itself. Which is a few secular scholars are arguing for more often these days than not.

gnostic said:

I refuse to reply any further until you stop lying about things that I never have claimed.

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You have claimed these Jews had names such as slave of Allah. You have also admitted they were not Rabbinical Jews. In addition you believe the Arab myths that say these Jews believed Ezra was the Son of God and that MP gave orders to assassinate them etc. Yet you claim that you haven't called them polytheists. That's interesting

J2hapydna said:

In addition you believe the Arab myths that say these Jews believed Ezra was the Son of God

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J2hapydna, I have never, ever mentioned the name of Ezra in this thread, or any past threads in the whole 11 years I have been member of this forum.

So it is another strawman, J2hapydna. You are putting your idea that I have never mentioned.

J2hapydna said:

You have also admitted they were not Rabbinical Jews.

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Yes, I stated that they were not Rabbinical Jews, but THAT DOESN'T MEAN that Jews living in Medina or Mecca were without knowledge of Jewish oral traditions.

Rabbinical Jews were the Jews responsible for committing their oral traditions to writings, such as the Talmud, and this only occurred two regions, Palestine (in the cities of Tiberia and in what was left of Jerusalem) and in Babylonia. No Jews in Arabic cities were involved in the Rabbinical literature.

Not all Jews were involved in Rabbinical literature; only rabbis and scholars from Palestine and Babylonia were involved.

Clearly, you don't know the Jewish history of the Rabbinical period.

Do you even understand what I am saying to you? Do you even know what I mean by Jewish oral traditions?

The Arabic Jews settled in Arabia, generations before Muhammad's time, and while they adopted the language, they kept their religion and their oral traditions.

Until you understand what the Jewish oral traditions are, you will continue to misunderstand, and we will go around and around, in circle, I have better things to do than wasting my time repeating things you clearly won't ever understand.

And your continuous use of straw-man, just how little honesty you have. It would seem your version of Islam is not better than the Umayyad whom you accuse of being dishonest and barbaric. You have revealed your true character, by using strawman and repeatedly moving the goalpost on me.

It is hard to call something peacefull when it talks bout a future war leading islamist to paradise and the rest hell.

War war and more war does not equal peace.

gnostic said:

New J2hapydna, I have never, ever mentioned the name of Ezra in this thread, or any past threads in the whole 11 years I have been member of this forum.

So it is another strawman, J2hapydna. You are putting your idea that I have never mentioned.

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What about Slave of Allah? Didn't you say that was his name? How could a Jew be a Slave of Allah and worshipper of G-d at the same time without being a Polytheist?

I have already asked you to show me examples of Jews with names such as worshipper of Lord Jesus or Hanuman etc. from India or the west. So your whole thesis about Jews adopting languages and culture to explain Slave of Allah is a load of rubbish. It is one thing for Jews to adopt a secular name such as Flavius and Peter (the Rock) etc., it is quite another to adopt a religious name. For example many Jews also go by names such as Carpenter, Goldsmith etc. These are again secular names.

Also, can you please stop being such a raging Drama Queen? Accusing other members of lying etc is unbecoming on these forums

Finally, you are treating these Umayyad tales as facts. These tales also tell us that these Jews worshipped Ezra as the Son of God. This is partly why they aren't considered Rabbinical Jews. So either discount the source or stop cherry picking from them. I understand you are not a trained historian, but this is just common sense

J2hapydna said:

Stop acting like a Drama Queen. What about Slave of Allah? Didn't you say that was his name? How could a Jew be a slave of Allah and worshipper of G-d at the same time without being a Polytheist?

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'Allah' is the Arabic word for 'God' or more accurately 'the god'. Also; Muslim orthodoxy states that Allah and the god of Abraham are the same deity. So whence comes this notion that they were in fact polytheists?

gnostic said:

Until you understand what the Jewish oral traditions are, you will continue to misunderstand, and we will go around and around, in circle, I have better things to do than wasting my time repeating things you clearly won't ever understand.

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LOL. I understand them quite well. Show me the one that says Jews can be Slaves of the Moon god and scribes are Sons of God

This looks good - Manifesto

gnostic said:

Apart from the Greek translation of the bible, which are used by the Greek Orthodox Church, the Masoretic Text became the source for all western translations of the Old Testament (OT) bible. The English translation of the OT, like the King James Version was based mostly Masoretic Text.

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Here you appear to be trying to change the subject by copying and pasting irrelevant information from some less than reliable website without any real understanding. For example, the source document for the official Catholic Bible canon is the Vulgate translated into Latin by St. Jerome from the Septuagint not the MT. Same is true of the KJV. What does this have to do with anything we are discussing?

From your posts I get the distinct feeling that you didn't grow up in a Christian, Jewish or Muslim household even if you live in Australia. So perhaps this explains why you don't always pick up on points that most Jews and Christians would instinctively - Jew named Slave of Allah, really? LOL

sovietchild said:

ISIS is fighting with western made weapons.

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The Muslim world isn't know for it's spectacular weapons technology nor does ISIS have a weapons nor munitions industry...

sovietchild said:

ISIS is fighting with western made weapons.

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And they're being motivated by Islam. What's the point in having a weapon if you aren't motivated to use it?

Who created ISIS?

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The Saudis.

And who trained the rebels to attack Russia in 90's?

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America. Who was it that preferred death to being ruled by godless communists? Muslims.

A Greased Scotsman said:

And they're being motivated by Islam. What's the point in having a weapon if you aren't motivated to use it?




The Saudis.




America. Who was it that preferred death to being ruled by godless communists? Muslims.

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Saudis? Maybe...

Why did oil trucks from ISIS territory were heading towards Turkey before Russians made a stop to that?

sovietchild said:

Saudis? Maybe...

Why did oil trucks from ISIS territory were heading towards Turkey before Russians made a stop to that?

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Because Turkey's increasingly Islamic tyrant, Erdogan, was trading with IS. He was probably using them to help keep the pressure on the Kurds just over the border.

A Greased Scotsman said:

Because Turkey's increasingly Islamic tyrant, Erdogan, was trading with IS. He was probably using them to help keep the pressure on the Kurds just over the border.

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Turkey is NATO country, let's keep that in mind. And, most of the America's (trained) recruits joined ISIS.

And, let's not forget 9/11. How can a building like #7 go down like that?

sovietchild said:

Saudis? Maybe...

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Syrian and Iraqi arms depots primary beside weapons captured during battle.

Why did oil trucks from ISIS territory were heading towards Turkey before Russians made a stop to that?

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Turkey has weak control over it's eastern border and have let ISIS operate within it's territory a number of time. Probably in order to cripple the Kurdish forces give it's history with the Kurds.

J2hapydna said:

Here you appear to be trying to change the subject by copying and pasting irrelevant information from some less than reliable website without any real understanding.

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I have not "quoted" anything in what you have quoted from my reply. In fact the only quote that I provided there, are two quotes that I extracted from your own posts.

J2hapydna said:

For example, the source document for the official Catholic Bible canon is the Vulgate translated into Latin by St. Jerome from the Septuagint not the MT.

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Where did I say that the Septuagint was translated from the Masoretic Text?

The composing and compiling of the Masoretic Text as the authentic Hebrew scriptures did start until 2nd century CE, but the only largely complete surviving copies of Masoretic Text that still exist today are the Aleppo Codex and Leningrad Codex, which were penned in 10th century CE.

The KJV is an Early Modern English translation. And the main source for translating the Old Testament is the Masoretic Text based on the Leningrad Codex. The translators of KJV Old Testament on some occasions did supplement some passages with using the Septuagint as sources.

Have you ever compare KJV against the Masoretic Text and the Septuagint bible, like the book of Genesis?

The years of when each patriarch father to the next patriarch in the Genesis family tree, from Adam to Terah, and compare their age between Hebrew and Greek sources against KJV, you would see all the ages of KJV matched that of the Hebrew Masoretic Text, not the Greek.

For example. In the Hebrew source (MT), Adam became father of Seth at age 130, the Greek source (Septuagint) say he was 230. If you look at the KJV, it used Adam's age at 130, like in the MT.

Similarly, the KJV match Seth's age of MT's 105 when he became father of Enosh, not the Greek Septuagint's age of 205.

With the exception of Noah, from Adam to Terah (Genesis 5 & 11), all ages of when patriarchs became "father" to their sons, the Greek and hebrew sources differed, and in every case, KJV would use the Hebrew sources, not the Greek Septuagint.

The last thing is that I was talking about "modern" western translations, relied mostly on the Masoretic Text. Neither the Vulgate bible, nor Septuagint bible, are modern translations. I was talking about "western translations", as in "modern translations", comparing what sources were used for modern translation: Hebrew (MT), Greek (Sept.) & Latin (VB).

I am talking about modern translations that we see today.

Does he deserve to die?