Rapture Era
Active Member
Great questions! But you will have to excuse me because I have to go to work. I will respond tomorrow.
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Ban the Bible and the Qur'an?
- Thread starter Laika
- Start date
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
You may want to look into the future Vice President of the United States, the "Christian, Conservative, and Republican in that order" Mike Pence, and how heavily Christianity has guided his political career. We are also still having to fight to keep religious creation mythos out of science class rooms.
I so sorely wish what you said is true, because there are still too many woes within society that are directly the fault of such Conservative Christian religiosity--such as the suicide rate among the LBGT community, America's high teen pregnancy rate, combating the rights of minorities, and millions who have such a profound ignorance of science that they can actually manage to say "it's just a theory"--but, unfortunately, that just is not true.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
out of curiosity...Bear with me for a moment. This isn't as crazy or evil as it may at first sound.
The Bible and the Qur'an represent the holy books of the world two largest religions, as well as various denominations and their predecessor Judaism from the old testament.
Whilst the concept of banning these two books flies in the face of our conceptions of personal liberty, there is a social evolutionary factor in this. The bible and the quran are both texts far removed from our own time and literal readings of them as truth are a hindrance on scientific advances as well a source of moral philosophies that struggle with questions in our technological age.
It would be hoped that in the era of atomic bombs, space exploration and industrialisation we would have developed religions or belief systems that correspond to the needs of the times. Whilst it is true that some varients of Islam and Christianity have re-invented themselves, it is only to remove the essence of the religious orthodoxy as mans submission to natural forces personified as a deity. It is more than possible to argue that such interpretations have defeated the religion itself as there are limits to how far you can interpret christianity or islam until you cease to be either a christian or a muslim. So whats the purpose of these religions if they are both scientifically and morally out-dated?
The flip side of this, is that as man comes to have greater mastery of the forces of nature and more power from our science and technology, being guided by a "bronze age" morality may infact be dangerous. Literal readings of these texts as a moral guide would produce hideously immoral societies by the standards we have today. the alternative is an extreme selectivity of these religions traditions and scripture which means that we are all but paying lip service to them. So why do we maintain the pretense of Christianity or Islam when we have made ourselves as individuals the supreme authority in deciding what parts of the religion we follow? This individualism is contaty to religious authority if it were cliamed to be derived from god or the church so it is not as if such a wide scope of interpretation is the pursuit of deeper "truth" when we have decided to ignore most of the religion.
So instead Christianity and Islam continue this strange pseudo-existence- on the one hand becoming empty liberal secular versions of themselves which do not necessarily offer spiritual truth or fulfilment in a way they were originally intended, or they are treated as truth and we condemn the results as contary to our humanity because they are such a miss match with advanced technological capabilities that could solve many problems. How long can this go on?
Should we draw a line under these religions by banning the bible and the quran and instead work to find belief systems for the majority of mankind that serve as better vechicles of the scientific and moral knowledge accumulated since the 1st and 6th century when they were established? Or should we allow these religions to continue and on what grounds?
Please present where banning something worked.
meaning that the "reason" for the ban was fulfilled.
I ask because I do not know of a single time when banning something fulfilled the "reason" for the ban.
Certainly my last statement is not ludicrous, for the very simple reason that I really do not see things as you do. For me, the idea that it takes a human sacrifice for God to be gracious is patently false. More than that, the very notion of condemning someone to an eternity of torture for no other reason than that they were brought up (through no fault of their own) to believe otherwise than you do is unbelievable cruel, and I could thus never worship any such monstrous deity.
Finally, I couldn't possibly worship a deity who supposes that this really, amazingly important message -- that everyone is supposed to hear and believe -- should be delivered to just a couple of people (that some call "prophets") -- is dumb. Any omniscient deity should have known before-hand that such a mechanism, especially using allegory, parable and other poetic devices to get the message out, is so prone to errors in transmission. And we know this is true because there are already 38,000 Christians sects out there, all supposedly studying the same prophecies, poetry and parables. And throughout its history, Christians from differing sects had no qualms about torturing and cruelly killing people not reading it the same way that they did.
If God can't figure that out -- he ain't God.
Esaurus
Member
Hello Lewisnotmiller,
Neither do I want to be as a leaf tossed about on the whims of an intelligent being even though we are tossed about too often by rogue, whimsical intelligent beings called men. But God did not create us to be tossed about like leaves. Even though there are many worshippers of gods as whimsical as man, was it by our ability that we have an orderly universe governed by natural laws and we by moral laws that promote order? Would you say that this order came about by anyone whimsical? The universe was corrupted by whimsical man.
Thankfully, I have never suffered a natural catastrophe. But does that exempt me from suffering a catastrophe of another kind that's beyond my control? How about you?
Scripture explains why God allows adversities (including catastrophes). From it as well as experience, we learn that they force far more serious thinking on our part than otherwise that deepen our understanding of weightier issues of life. But that's true only if we endure and not fall out with God.
The evil around us is the collective consequences of our being so much "better" than God that we think ourselves in need of none of His wise counsel. Children also have tendencies to think themselves wiser than their parents.
Take care,
Earl
I believe that the ban on murder continues to be considered reasonable despite continued incidences of it. I think your argument is with the existence of the law itself rather than anything specifically in the OP.
i showed you the text from the bible. jesus said:
the prostitutes and the tax collectors were entering heaven
again
18 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
again
Luke 17:21
nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst."
again
1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
again
Matthew 24:23
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mark 13:21
And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
you're dead already. you just don't realize it.
The kingdom of God is within Self. The Spirit dwells within the body temple
I don't believe in banning ANY books whatsoever. Even if you don't agree with an idea or even are violently against the idea; trying to suppress it can lead to disastrous results.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
The idea I get from the OP is that it thinks banning the Bible and Koran will somehow stop people from reading them.
Stop people from getting crazy ideas from them, etc.
Doesn't happen that way.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
The "ban" on murder is a bad example because I am not talking about the law.
Prohibition would be a much better example.
I am asking flat out for an example where banning something resulted in the "reason" for the ban.
The ban on same sex marriage did not stop same sex couples from getting married.
God banning premarital sex did not stop premarital sex.
The ban on marijuana has not stopped marijuana from being grown, sold , smoked, etc.
What exactly do you think will happen if the Bible and the Koran get banned?
If such a ban were even 95% effective, the cultural impact would still be immense.
Christianity has 2.2 billion adherents and Islam has 1.6 billion or about 3.8 billion people all together. So a hypothetical worldwide ban on those two religions that has a 95% sucess rate would change the minds of 3.61 billion people.
Do you really need a 100% success rate to justify a law to change behaviour?
If you managed to remove 90-95% of bibles and qurans from circulation, you're telling me that wouldn't get us almost to a point where we could start having ideas discussed made in the current century and not the 1st or 6th centuries?
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Do you really think it would be even 5% effective?
Do you think people will be lining up to destroy all their copies of the Bible and the Koran?
Do you think that even if all the Bibles and Korans all over the world were to just completely disappear that there would not be any one printing new ones?
Oh it would change their minds alright.
Just not about their religion...
Who said anything about 100%?
Hells bells, why would you think it would be any higher than 5%?
I doubt it would even be that high.
yes, I am saying no, it would not.
At least, not in the really real world.
And you have not presented, as requested, even a single time when a ban has worked.
Rapture Era
Active Member
The most important thing you seem to be missing is the context in which these passages are written. You cant pull passages out to use them for your own purposes.
jesus did it all the time. idolatry to a person doesn't have the seal of approval by jesus, or the bible. it is approved by the woman who rides the beast, the church at babylon salutes you.
Shad
Veteran Member
Guided by Christian principles is still not having Christianity institutionalized as part of government as it once was. I am not in favour of dictating what principles people can or can not follow via law but how these principles translate into acts and the effects of such acts. Let them demonstrate how flawed these principles are. Besides conservative Christians have been doing a fine job of being on the losing side of civil rights battles for over a century. I do not expect anything to change soon.
when your arguing against Fascism, arguing that "it can't happen" and "it won't work" is the weakest possible argument you can make.
I'm not sure why I would need to provide any evidence to support that view if only to show how utterly misplaced your confidence in human beings is. Given that this sort of complacency was what let people sit back and watch it happen, Shouldn't that be obvious?
Shad
Veteran Member
I just can not get on board with this idea using such methods. More so I think it would backfire turning moderate and liberal Christians against the "we" forcing them to join with the conservative camp
Fair enough.
Shad
Veteran Member
I think your idea has merit on an individual level as it is not only has practical applications but is currently used by many people. Muslims do not follow the Bible thus they do not think it is a basis of a worldview. Likewise Christians think the same about the Quran. More so if we look denomination and sectarian splits we see how different groups invoke various authorities, even themselves, which provides another "layer" behind their interpretation thus worldview. Be it ahadith or some pastor in the American South.
Rapture Era
Active Member
"But obviously people who aren't Christian still want many things that are, as you say here, to do with God. For example, relationships and experiences of the world etc. Many of them want God, as well, as go towards Him via other traditions. So it's not like they reject all of that so 'OK, cart them off to hell' - so why do they go to hell?"
This is a great question. I think what you are saying here,(correct me if I'm wrong) is that people (other than Christians) want to believe in a higher power but have different traditions and these different traditions are a different way to reach God right? And because they want to reach God they have their own way of doing it so why should they go to hell. Is that pretty close? One thing to remember is that there is a very vicious battle going on in the spiritual realm for your soul. Satan hates God and he hates Gods creation which is you and me. Satan has had a lot of time to since Adam and Eve up to today. He is called the angel of light, meaning he comes looking very attractive. He is also called the father of lies and is in the business of deceiving people especially those who are looking for spiritual truth. He dosent want you to follow spiritual truth because that would mean you would find salvation in Jesus Christ, who said "I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father (or heaven) except through me." Thats as straight as it gets!
No other religion or god(s) of any other religion states that only through them are you able to enter heaven, only Jesus Christ says that. Let that sink in a bit. There is only one true living God. How do we know this? As I mentioned before, the first 3 of the Ten Commandments are: 1) I am the LORD thy God. 2) Thou shalt have no other gods before me. and 3) No graven images or likenesses. I dont know how much clearer He can be. And agian, I dont know of any other god(s) lay claim to those statements, none of them! So now that we have established Who God is, doesnt if follow that we as His creation would need to follow His instructions on how to get to heaven? So all other beliefs contrary to what He requires will not work, they are futile in their attempts to reach God. Thats another reason why missionaries have brought the Gospel of this truth in salvation through Jesus Christ all over the world. You can accept it or reject it. If you reject it, you have fallen short of reaching heaven.
So, when you say,"Why, for example, am I bound for hell?" if you choose to ignore what God requires to get into heaven, you are bound for hell. I didnt make up the rules, He did.
Also, why forever? Surely having realised this ain't a good place to be, a kind God would take them out after they'd learned their lesson?
God is eternal. He created all of us to be eternal. There was nothing to keep this from continuing until Satan entered, cause Eve and then Adam to sin against what God told them not to do. Because of sin, Cain killed his brother Abel, the first murder. From that time until present, we have seen sinful people do unspeakable and horrific things to other human beings and to animals. When we die, the eternal part of us (our soul) continues to live and be very conscious of our surroundings. God has also promised us a new body, a heavenly body that will never be subjected to all we experience as human beings in a fallen world. For the Christian (followers of Jesus Christ) we are promised by God of a wonderful future and eternity with Him where there will be no more disease, pain, or sorrow. As far as people learning their lessons, we should have plenty of experience right here on earth
in our own lives of learning lessons of disobedience right? He is telling you and me through His Word (the bible) up front what we need to do to avoid such a horrible place as hell. It would seem to me that because none of us knows when we will die it would be important to call upon the Lord and accept His free gift of Salvation ASAP! Hope this helps.
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