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Ban the Bible and the Qur'an?

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
People have different answers. What is yours?
You have 6,000 posts here and no one has told you why God made hell? Really?

please excuse me as i interject

heaven and hell are states of mind.

the kingdom of hell comes from within you, just as the kingdom of heaven comes from within.

those who are double-minded create a gulf between themselves and others.

those who are single-minded are friendly and servant to others as self.

see?

22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!


 
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Sonofason

Well-Known Member
My position being correct or not has no bearing on if I called out your statement. Regardless of who is correct, I called out your statement. Your statement is wrong. Democrats are not using schools to shame kids away Christianity.

That's not arrogance. I also think Mississippi Burning, American History X, and A Time to Kill should be required high school viewing along with To Kill a Mockingbird (which widely is required reading/viewing), and many people tend to agree since those movies show unbridled and uncensored racism, and how poisonous and toxic "lesser" racist positions can be. A Letter to a Christian Nation and End of Faith should be required as it would make people think critically about something that gets a "free pass" when it comes to critical thinking and logic. I even know there are some Christian professors who would probably agree, as they like exposing their Christian students to materials that challenge their faith.

Many atheists are former Christians, and studies have shown they understand the Bible and Christianity better than Christians.

How can one "deprive" their child of something that is based on faith? It's not like a parent can completely and totally shut their child's brain off from the world.
Do you not understand that there is no scientific knowledge that is capable of refuting the creation story as told in the Bible? Do you not know that there is no historical account that can be found in the Bible that can be refuted with science? What is it actually that you believe the Bible contains, that if believed requires a deficiency in one's ability to be a critical thinker?
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Do you not understand that there is no scientific knowledge that is capable of refuting the creation story as told in the Bible? Do you not know that there is no historical account that can be found in the Bible that can be refuted with science? What is it actually that you believe the Bible contains, that if believed requires a deficiency in one's ability to be a critical thinker?

Do you mean this from a Young Earth perspective?
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
Do you mean this from a Young Earth perspective?
There is no mention in the Bible of the age of the earth. Everything we know of the age of the earth is either speculation by religious "authorities" or from speculations by "authorities" in the name of science. I do not have sufficient information to date the age of the earth. Nor do I care to try. Nor does it matter.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
For one thing, you are presuming malice needlessly.
Yeah right. Let's take their Bibles away from them...no, no that wouldn't be right..it's not the fault of the books that they believe as they do. Lets shame them instead to be more like us. That would be more affective in achieving our goals. Besides, if we take their books, they might fight back...

You betcha we would.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Right, but Sam Harris didn't call them fundamentalists and extremists, he just called them Christians. There was a sentence or two near the beginning which pushed other kinds of Christian under the carpet condescendingly.
I don't agree with every point, but we do call people fundamentalist and extremists, and define the terms, based on their strict adherence and literal interpretation of their scripture. And he clearly does separate fundamentalist/extremists, moderates, and liberals into different groups of adherents.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Yeah right. Let's take their Bibles away from them...no, no that wouldn't be right..it's not the fault of the books that they believe as they do. Lets shame them instead to be more like us. That would be more affective in achieving our goals. Besides, if we take their books, they might fight back...

You betcha we would.
Such insecurity.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah right. Let's take their Bibles away from them...no, no that wouldn't be right..it's not the fault of the books that they believe as they do. Lets shame them instead to be more like us. That would be more affective in achieving our goals. Besides, if we take their books, they might fight back...

You betcha we would.

I'm just gonna speak for myself here. Trying to respect people's rights to religion AND their rights to not have particular religious beliefs imposed upon them takes effort.

I wouldn't take Bibles from people, simply because I fundamentally disagree with it.

It is not part of a strategic plan to kill Christianity via an easier path.

Considering people who WOULDN'T take bibles from people part of some anti-theistic left is overblown. Perhaps cries of persecution should be tied to instances of persecution. Like the OP.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
I'm just gonna speak for myself here. Trying to respect people's rights to religion AND their rights to not have particular religious beliefs imposed upon them takes effort.

I wouldn't take Bibles from people, simply because I fundamentally disagree with it.

It is not part of a strategic plan to kill Christianity via an easier path.

Considering people who WOULDN'T take bibles from people part of some anti-theistic left is overblown. Perhaps cries of persecution should be tied to instances of persecution. Like the OP.
And again, this is why I like having discussions with you. You say that "trying to respect people's rights to religion AND their rights to not have particular religious beliefs imposed upon them takes effort." Indeed it does. It takes a great deal of effort. Most people do not have the patience to consider both sides of an argument. They are right, and that is that. Certainly, that is how I often feel with regard to my position regarding these matters. And that may be due to the possibility that the differences between these two sides are irreconcilable. For example, on the one hand we have a group of people who desire a particular freedom which enables them to terminate the life of an innocent unborn human being at any point in its gestation period. And then you have the other side seeing this as an atrocity comparable to murdering 6 million Jews. It is an irreconcilable difference. I cannot support anyone's desire for a freedom to murder their own children anymore than I could tolerate a national dictator murdering entire segments of it's population. It's never going to happen. I will speak against it, so long as I have breath, and I will fight against it so long as I live. I will vote, and I will do anything in my power to stop this freedom in its tracks. There are other issues that I find highly offensive, that are not as crucial an issue for me. For example, the gay agenda. I understand what these people want, and I can honestly say that such a freedom would not necessarily do any obvious physical harm to those people who oppose that sort of life style . I do however believe that allowing such freedom has negative repercussions on society and humanity in general. If nothing else, allowing such a freedom to take root, for the Christian, is like saying "you're right, there are no negative consequences for this behavior", yet souls will be lost. I will therefore oppose it because I believe that such behavior is contrary to God's will. I understand that not everyone believes in God, as I hope you understand that I have not been convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that evolution science is completely true. My beliefs leave me with a much stronger conviction that God is true. Just as you might like to teach subjects that might call into question the veracity of the Bible and so called techniques of "critical thinking", I would like to teach people about God, because I believe that knowing God is of far greater importance to every single human being than anything that science has and ever will offer to humanity, and I believe that human souls should be fought for, regardless what freedoms they think they want. I am convicted to tell them what they don't want to hear. And what they do with that is all theirs.

Now I know that I come across pretty harsh, and I know that I am not perfect. I am far from perfect. Given each subject, I have the word of God to support me when I tell people what they deserve. But because there are rules against preaching and proselytizing on this forum, I have to walk a very fine line. But I will be the first to admit that Christ changes everything. The New Covenant He set forth allows us to have compassion and to forgive others for their sins. He was the first to say, I forgive you, but it was always followed up with "go and sin no more". Yes, we do not have to give people what they deserve, but I think it is important for everyone to know what they deserve. If you are free to do as you please, you cannot please God, unless that which you please to do is that which is pleasing to God.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
I do think there is more to gain by respecting freedom of conscience and religious liberty. Anything can be abused which includes secular views but the state imposing a religious view of no religion is not an answer... just yet another religious view... albeit secular... secularism being a competitor view and not a neutral arbiter
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Another way of looking at it is recognising that Christianity and Islam have established a duopoly in the market place of ideas where they collectively dominate over a third of the worlds population. Banning the bible and the Quran could be seen as breaking up a monopoly power in ideas developed over a thousand and more years. This would reintroduce competition into the marketplace so that people are free to think outside the confines of these two religions in practice and not just on paper.

Christianity has already conceded, a majority, that non-Christian ideas exist and are more useful for understanding reality than a simple Christian worldview. Ideas such as evolution. Those that put forward strict literialism are the holdovers of the monopoly Christianity lost centuries ago as they still rely on religious authority to dictate truth regarding external ideas. More so in many academic fields Christian worldviews are not even considered such as the idea of exorcism as a valid medical practice. Christianity is not longer institutionalized as part of government and education in western civilization.

The same can not be said of Islam which in most cases forms a major part of Muslim government thus has authority over external ideas.


You didn't answer my question regarding a method which can be used to implement such an idea. Individually people can make a choice to accept or reject such filters on their worldview but I fail to see how this could work on society at large by a ban. To me it seems like the method of marginalizing and excluding these worldviews as valid for everything is working fine.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Christianity has already conceded, a majority, that non-Christian ideas exist and are more useful for understanding reality than a simple Christian worldview. Ideas such as evolution. Those that put forward strict literialism are the holdovers of the monopoly Christianity lost centuries ago as they still rely on religious authority to dictate truth regarding external ideas. More so in many academic fields Christian worldviews are not even considered such as the idea of exorcism as a valid medical practice. Christianity is not longer institutionalized as part of government and education in western civilization.

The same can not be said of Islam which in most cases forms a major part of Muslim government thus has authority over external ideas.


You didn't answer my question regarding a method which can be used to implement such an idea. Individually people can make a choice to accept or reject such filters on their worldview but I fail to see how this could work on society at large by a ban. To me it seems like the method of marginalizing and excluding these worldviews as valid for everything is working fine.

The method of enforcing such a ban is Violence and oppression. I did answer your question in so far as the "competitive market of ideas" was much more mild version.
 

Rapture Era

Active Member
People have different answers. What is yours?
I see. Well, being I didnt make hell, my answer would have to come from the one who did and see what He had to say about it. The short answer is
The Bible tells us exactly why hell was created in (Matthew 25:41).
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Hell was never created for people. If people, with their free will, want nothing to do with God, he is loving and will respect their decision right into eternity. As has been said before, we are the ones who choose where we want to spend eternity. He did everything He could to give us a way out of hell, but if there are those who dont want a way out and want nothing to do with Him, He will allow them to be in a place completely void of Him and allow those to end up in to hell forever.
Its like the parent who loves his child but the child rebels against the parent and becomes a criminal or a murderer. There is a penalty to pay for rebellion against the law. We accept this. God created everything and we as human beings are on His playground with His rules. If you dont want to abide by His rules fine. They will get what they want, separation from Him forever! I just cant comprehend why anyone would want that.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I see. Well, being I didnt make hell, my answer would have to come from the one who did and see what He had to say about it. The short answer is
The Bible tells us exactly why hell was created in (Matthew 25:41).
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Hell was never created for people. If people, with their free will, want nothing to do with God, he is loving and will respect their decision right into eternity. As has been said before, we are the ones who choose where we want to spend eternity. He did everything He could to give us a way out of hell, but if there are those who dont want a way out and want nothing to do with Him, He will allow them to be in a place completely void of Him and allow those to end up in to hell forever.
Its like the parent who loves his child but the child rebels against the parent and becomes a criminal or a murderer. There is a penalty to pay for rebellion against the law. We accept this. God created everything and we as human beings are on His playground with His rules. If you dont want to abide by His rules fine. They will get what they want, separation from Him forever! I just cant comprehend why anyone would want that.

But surely in creating hell, he also set it up so that people who weren't good Christians would go there when they die. Like, that's a pretty specific set of circumstances.

Can a person get on with living a life in hell quite normally, but without God's presence, or is there torture and fire and so on? If the latter, why?
 

Rapture Era

Active Member
heaven and hell are states of mind.
You are going to find out if heaven and hell are just a state of mind or reality the moment you die. Just seems to be a terrible thing to have to face if you are wrong! Why take that chance. How do you know for sure beyond any doubt that what you are saying is true? Its a bet I wouldnt want to take.
 

Rapture Era

Active Member
But surely in creating hell, he also set it up so that people who weren't good Christians would go there when they die. Like, that's a pretty specific set of circumstances.
Can a person get on with living a life in hell quite normally, but without God's presence, or is there torture and fire and so on? If the latter, why?
Think about it for a moment. If hell is void of everything that God created that is good, there is nothing there alive. Also no relationships, you will be all alone and never speak to another individual. You will have no strength, it will be darkness. Your senses will be at a much more heightened level than on earth. You will feel pain, hear others screaming but you will not be able to talk to them. Being able to speak with someone denotes relationship, but people chose to go to a place where there are no relationships. Relationships were instituted by God. They dont want anything to do with God so all of the good things we enjoy here on earth will not be present in hell. Just at the point you feel you will go insane (which would be a form of relief) you will be brought out of that state to begin all over again! This goes on forever and ever and ever! The point I'm trying to make should be extremely obvious, you DO NOT want to go there!
"Can a person get on with living a life in hell quite normally, but without God's presence, or is there torture and fire and so on? If the latter, why?"
Nothing will be normal in hell. It will be void of ANYTHING good.
or is there torture and fire and so on? If the latter, why?"
Remember, it was created for the devil and his angels or demons and the lake of fire will not be a very nice place to be. No matter how you want to picture it or know every detail about it, the point is STAY OUT! Now, how does one do that? We discussed it above and I know you have heard it many times before.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Think about it for a moment. If hell is void of everything that God created that is good, there is nothing there alive. Also no relationships, you will be all alone and never speak to another individual. You will have no strength, it will be darkness. Your senses will be at a much more heightened level than on earth. You will feel pain, hear others screaming but you will not be able to talk to them. Being able to speak with someone denotes relationship, but people chose to go to a place where there are no relationships. Relationships were instituted by God. They dont want anything to do with God so all of the good things we enjoy here on earth will not be present in hell. Just at the point you feel you will go insane (which would be a form of relief) you will be brought out of that state to begin all over again! This goes on forever and ever and ever! The point I'm trying to make should be extremely obvious, you DO NOT want to go there!
"Can a person get on with living a life in hell quite normally, but without God's presence, or is there torture and fire and so on? If the latter, why?"
Nothing will be normal in hell. It will be void of ANYTHING good.
or is there torture and fire and so on? If the latter, why?"
Remember, it was created for the devil and his angels or demons and the lake of fire will not be a very nice place to be. No matter how you want to picture it or know every detail about it, the point is STAY OUT! Now, how does one do that? We discussed it above and I know you have heard it many times before.

But obviously people who aren't Christian still want many things that are, as you say here, to do with God. For example, relationships and experiences of the world etc. Many of them want God, as well, as go towards Him via other traditions. So it's not like they reject all of that so 'OK, cart them off to hell' - so why do they go to hell?

Why, for example, am I bound for hell?

Also, why forever? Surely having realised this ain't a good place to be, a kind God would take them out after they'd learned their lesson?
 
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