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Definition of...

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
Hi All,
I Would love to hear your definition of the following:
I Would give my shot definition (An Atheist POV) and would love hearing yours :)

Hope

To have a positive thinking towards something even if the chance of it fulfilling is small

Faith

Believe something is true although all evidence and reason suggest otherwise. As far as I see it, Faith is a term that is redundant.

Wish

To want something to be true (Even if currently you don't have a practical way of getting it)

Sin

N/A, Can't really define it as i think this is a religious term

Holy

See "Sin"

Salvation

To be saved from a situation that seems unlikely to survive

Soul

The things we yet understand about how our body works

Spirit

See "Soul"


Thanks all :)

I'll probably debate you about your definition, so apologies in advance :)
 
Last edited:

lovesong

:D
Premium Member
Oh! I'm up for the challenge!

Hope:

I like your definition, but want to tweak it a little. I don't think the chances have to be small. I can hope to do well on my test tomorrow, I can hope I like the movies I'm seeing tonight. Overall though I like defining hope as a positive thinking to fulfill something, or a desire for something to happen.

Faith:

Faith is belief without hard, testable evidence. Whether we see this as good or bad is really up to us.

Wish:

I see this one as a less-likely version of hope. I hope I'll do well on my test, I wish I would do well if I didn't study. The hope is much more likely to happen than the wish. A wish is something we want to happen that really probably won't.

Sin:

Sin has no real meaning to me. It's something others use to try to make us feel guilty about our actions. My faith has no concept of sin, so to me the term and the idea are foreign.

Holy:

Holy implies that this thing is super-duper-extra-special and nobody can touch it. It's so revered that we can only look at it in awe. This too has no place in my beliefs. Nothing is so sacred that it is unapproachable.

Salvation:

Another one alien to me. Salvation is being saved from something in a religious context. In my beliefs there is nothing to be saved from, no eternal punishment or karmic bad points.

Soul:

I don't really like using this one, but if I have to I will. I would define the soul as the spirit in a person, although I always just say spirit.

Spirit:

This one I could go on about. Every living thing has a spirit. The spirit is the part of us that goes on to the afterlife. Spirit is also another word for beings lesser than gods but higher than living things. Animal spirits, regional spirits, ect. Their distinction from gods is their level of power. Where gods are able to manipulate the world in certain ways, spirits only have the power to influence the people who listen to them.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
To yearn for a specific outcome.

It depends in what context. Sometimes it used as a synonym to "religion".
Otherwise, a feeling of surety about something.

N/A

A deed that is counter to the Will of G-d.

Separated for a specific purpose.

Salvation
To be helped from a predicament without any action on the part of the saved.

The animative force.

Synonym for soul.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
Hi All,
I Would love to hear your definition of the following:
I Would give my shot definition (An Atheist POV) and would love hearing yours :)

Hope

To have a positive thinking towards something even if the chance of it fulfilling is small

Faith

Believe something is true although all evidence and reason suggest otherwise. As far as I see it, Faith is a term that is redundant.

Wish

To want something to be true (Even if currently you don't have a practical way of getting it)

Sin

N/A, Can't really define it as i think this is a religious term

Holy

See "Sin"

Salvation

To be saved from a situation that seems unlikely to survive

Soul

The things we yet understand about how our body works

Spirit

See "Soul"


Thanks all :)

I'll probably debate you about your definition, so apologies in advance :)

Hope: optimistic or trust.

Faith: the belief in things not seen by the mind or made aware in the mind yet.

Sin: ignorance/lies/separation of mind.

Holy: whole/wholesome/whole-minded.

Salvation: set free from ignorance/lies, set free from any mental slavery and established by truth.

Soul: the essence of a being's character/nature.

spirit: feeling
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm not exactly sure why these are questions of terms in a Science and Religion debate forum. They are part of our emotional, psychological, and spiritual lives, and aside from studies of the humanities they really don't have much to do with doing science in general. Can you explain why you are asking for these here? Do you mean to contrast how our being and actually living as humans is not the same as and goes beyond us simply doing science?

Aside from that, here's my take:

Hope

To have a positive thinking towards something even if the chance of it fulfilling is small
Though thinking is part of that, the nature of hope itself is more emotional, an attitude which pushes one's thinking towards positive thought.

Faith

Believe something is true although all evidence and reason suggest otherwise. As far as I see it, Faith is a term that is redundant.
I see faith as distinctly different than beliefs, though there is of course interaction between them. It certainly is not something that results in a refusal to accept contrary evidence. That's willful ignorance. That's the opposite of faith. It's a lack of faith. Faith on the other hand is not dependent upon beliefs. Beliefs can come and go, change and be challenged, and faith allows all of that to occur. Faith is a "sense", or an intuition of what one doesn't have any solid evidence for yet to claim a direct knowledge of. When that evidence does comes, which can be in many forms, when one can experience that which was intuited but largely undefined, then that faith is replaced by experience.

Wish

To want something to be true (Even if currently you don't have a practical way of getting it)
I'd say it's a form of desire which we use the emotion of hope to extend our beliefs toward in order to motivate us to attain that desire.

Sin

N/A, Can't really define it as i think this is a religious term
Of course sin means "to fall short of the mark". It of course has a religious context, which when you understand in the broadest of terms has to do with one's "Ultimate Concern", as Tillich put it perfectly, then our "sin" is where we fail to realize the ultimate reality of our own being as humans in the world. In that sense everyone is religious in one way or another. In this sense then, it's a perfectly valid term and should be used. We sin against ourselves. Just not so much by externalizing the source of that self-judgement in an anthropomorphic projection of a Sky Parent deity checking in on us. Though that image apparently works for some, it's too fraught with abuses of power to be of any ultimate value, or worse actually creates sin.

Holy

See "Sin"
Holy is to be pure in heart and intent. It is to live the sincere life. The opposite of which is as Sartre called it "bad faith". To be holy, is to be true, to yourself, to others, and to the world.

Salvation

To be saved from a situation that seems unlikely to survive
To be freed from a life of insincerity, to be freed from our own sin. The result is psychological, emotional, and spiritual freedom. We live life liberated from the garbage of our own beliefs and false conformities we seek in order to find ourselves. Salvation is a process of death to all of that in ourselves, and "rising from the dead", as it were to being True, who we truly are. All of religion's mythologizes about external deities rescuing us is simply an expression of that reality in our passing from our own life into death, and from that rising to our true Self.

Soul

The things we yet understand about how our body works
No, hardly. :) I have a real issue with reductionist philosophies as being rather dull and lacking of substance and depth. At the same time, I don't understand these things in mythological terms as ghosts and whatnot. I think there is a validity to speak of our "soul" as part of ourselves that I would venture to say is about our "essence" of who and what we are that exists as "us" before, during, and beyond all the trappings of "self" we identify with as we live our lives. If one goes deeply enough within oneself, you find there is this "core" "self" that is not identified as all the things we identify ourselves as when we look into the mirror of our own self-reflections. I could go into some length about that, but I said my take on soul is the "unique" self, which is none of the stuff we think we are.

Spirit

See "Soul"
I see Spirit as that which is beyond soul. It is the Ground from which all form arises and which is not separate from anything. It is the wetness of every wave of the ocean of existence itself. It is the paper on which all lines are drawn, which lines would not be at all were it not for the paper. Spirit is inseparable from form, and as such cannot be seen as "other" to it, as an "object" of observation. It is "invisible" in the sense that is not other to all that is. If you see a tree, you see Spirit.

Thanks all :)

I'll probably debate you about your definition, so apologies in advance :)
Go for it. ;)
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Hi All,
I Would love to hear your definition of the following:
I Would give my shot definition (An Atheist POV) and would love hearing yours :)

Hope

Maintaining optimism. Wishing for outcomes that will be positive from the perspective of the observer.

Faith

Strong trust or confidence in something.

Wish

I desire for something to occur, regardless of how plausible it is to the observer.

Sin

Lack of Love

Holy

Sacred. A reverence for anything deemed as coming from God (or deities).

Salvation

Full restoration of self awareness to one's inherent connection to God/Divinity.

Soul

Individual distinction of Spirit

Spirit

The essence of Divine existence, permeating everything and everyone


Thanks all :)

I'll probably debate you about your definition, so apologies in advance :)

Apology accepted.
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
Sin: ignorance/lies/separation of mind.
Can you elaborate?
Ignorant people are living in Sin?
If a lie saves lives, Is it a Sin?
If I lie to my son because i think he is not ready to hear an answer and i t will probably make him miserable.. is it a sin?
Separation of mind? Whats that? I am not familiar with this term...Can you please educate me?
Holy: whole/wholesome/whole-minded.
So the Cross symbol for Christians is Whole? What does that mean?
Salvation: set free from ignorance/lies, set free from any mental slavery and established by truth.
Whats a mental slavery? you mean like religion?? ;)
Soul: the essence of a being's character/nature.
Not quite understand what this means.. can you please elaborate?
spirit: feeling
I'm gonna need more than that lease :)
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
I think "soul" is just another religious belief, same with spirit, both are ill-defined.

Apart from that I broadly agree with your definitions.
Well.. I Agree that this is a Spiritual term only.. but I tried to give it a definition from my own POV...
So this is the best I Had :)
But i really think that people give "Spiritual" names to things they not yet understand..
I'm not saying there is a Soul, rather that people call something soul because they lack the understanding what really causes things to work as they do.
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
Hope Maintaining optimism. Wishing for outcomes that will be positive from the perspective of the observer.
Nice :)
Strong trust or confidence in something.
Even if it is a sure thing? I think it is only valid for things that you can't know that they are true...
Lack of Love
WHAT?????
How is lacking love a Sin??? Please explain, I porobably don't understand what you mean...

Apology accepted.
Thank you :)
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Even if it is a sure thing? I think it is only valid for things that you can't know that they are true...

Faith is what makes it a "sure" thing. I think what you are saying you think is based on connotation, not denotation (or actual definition).

WHAT?????
How is lacking love a Sin??? Please explain, I porobably don't understand what you mean...

Helps to understand what (actual) Love is. Think unconditional Love that technically permeates all of existence. Therefore not truly possible to be lacking. I see sin as perception based, and an illusionary claim. Once an illusion of self is taken as 'reality,' then sin becomes possible as (own) self would plausibly be seen as lacking unconditional Love and/or (perhaps more likely) that love (distorted) is in every way it appears, conditional.
 

Ahanit

Active Member
Hope

People which do not want to change themselfe hope for change made by others

Faith

A tool to create Hope

Wish

A fairy Tale became truth

Sin

Created by old man to expand their power and create more slaves

Holy


The unreachable, the carrot at the fishinp pole to direkt the moke

Salvation


The promise of the superior to hold the slaves in dependency

Soul

Where you can find the truth about the world, when you are open to go within

Spirit


HuiBoooo ;) :D
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not exactly sure why these are questions of terms in a Science and Religion debate forum. They are part of our emotional, psychological, and spiritual lives, and aside from studies of the humanities they really don't have much to do with doing science in general. Can you explain why you are asking for these here? Do you mean to contrast how our being and actually living as humans is not the same as and goes beyond us simply doing science?

I was wondering this as well, along with the following:


I'll probably debate you about your definition, so apologies in advance :)

Curiosity compels me to ask - why debate definitions instead of share them and aim to understand how others see things differently? Based on this thread so far, it looks like that's what you're doing anyway rather than the "my definition is right and yours is wrong" sort of absurdity. So that's good, I guess. :D

That aside, I'm not really sure how to approach the questions you ask. How I understand a symbol or its usage (words being a type of symbol) is heavily dependent upon context, and it would take quite some time to attempt to list out every contextual usage and meaning of words as I understand them or have observed. To make things more complicated I'd also feel compelled to include how other people understand these words, not just my own, because their usages have as much merit as mine do. Honestly, might as well right an essay or even a tome exploring each of these words and the various cultural subtexts surrounding them. :D
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
Faith is what makes it a "sure" thing. I think what you are saying you think is based on connotation, not denotation (or actual definition).
So if someone is in a bad situation, and says, I have Faith God will help me... Is it sure that God will help?
I Don't think so...
I Think the person Actually believes god will help, while the reality is that God will probably won't.
And if so, Faith might cause you saying "Oh.. God helped me because he wanted me to learn a lesson about what I experienced"..
But again, I Might be wrong.. That's how I interpret Faith :)

Helps to understand what (actual) Love is.
I don't think anyone is yet to understand what love really is...
Think unconditional Love that technically permeates all of existence.
So you say Love is basically the essence of everything?
Yet this is not really a definition of Love as essence of everything is not really a definition.
If you had to explain Love to a child, How would you describe it?
Do you think a Child will accept an answer like: Love is everything! as a mind easing answer?
I see sin as perception based, and an illusionary claim.
To that I can agree :)
Once an illusion of self is taken as 'reality,' then sin becomes possible as (own) self would plausibly be seen as lacking unconditional Love and/or (perhaps more likely) that love (distorted) is in every way it appears, conditional.
Here you lost me :)
But i assume that people with actual true love can also Sin no?
According to religion, BTW, We are all born sinners... so based on your conclusion, We are living in an illusion of love and not experiencing real love?
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
I was wondering this as well, along with the following:

I'll explain why I added this to the Debate section.
Parts of the terms I asked about are (TMO) only relevant to religion.

And as there are so many minds and thoughts , I tried to understand how people define those things.
It is interesting to see that theist people, have a very different way of explaining what each term means and the interpretation they give provide a lot of information about their POV.
Obviously, As I am an Atheist, I Assumed people will not agree with some of my definitions, and I wanted to have a debate about it.



Curiosity compels me to ask - why debate definitions instead of share them and aim to understand how others see things differently? Based on this thread so far, it looks like that's what you're doing anyway rather than the "my definition is right and yours is wrong" sort of absurdity. So that's good, I guess. :D

A Debate is not a bad thing... When i say debate, It doesn't mean I don't agree... It means I want to talk about it and try and open up peoples minds to the Non-theistic POV of those terms.

It will be the same as asking Why debate Religion?

Why not?
If we don't debate things, it will be a very sad day to humanity :)

..

That aside, I'm not really sure how to approach the questions you ask. How I understand a symbol or its usage (words being a type of symbol) is heavily dependent upon context, and it would take quite some time to attempt to list out every contextual usage and meaning of words as I understand them or have observed. To make things more complicated I'd also feel compelled to include how other people understand these words, not just my own, because their usages have as much merit as mine do. Honestly, might as well right an essay or even a tome exploring each of these words and the various cultural subtexts surrounding them. :D
That's actually a great Idea that I might take on myself... but I really think debate, makes both sides think about their beliefs and assumption...
For me, When I debate a topic (Not only science) I try to learn as much as possible about the topic from several POVs... that way I can learn a lot about it and I really do believe that people can actually change their POV based on a good debate.
Cheers :)
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I'll explain why I added this to the Debate section.
Parts of the terms I asked about are (TMO) only relevant to religion.

Hmm. Not sure I see it that way, but this makes me think of another question. Since I don't think I want to attempt anything approaching a thorough run-down of how I understand these word-symbols, would you want me to present a more narrow understanding from the perspective of a Pagan Druid? I think I might be able to do that.


It is interesting to see that theist people, have a very different way of explaining what each term means and the interpretation they give provide a lot of information about their POV.

I see that sometimes, though I personally don't find it at all useful to attempt to generalize about "theist people" (lol... really?). There are too many types of theism for that. The so-called "theist" perspectives can routinely have more in common with so-called "atheist" perspectives when the only theism that seems to exist in people's minds in America is classical monotheism (and if folks are aware of the diversity, then they still understand it with classical monotheist assumptions).


A Debate is not a bad thing... When i say debate, It doesn't mean I don't agree... It means I want to talk about it and try and open up peoples minds to the Non-theistic POV of those terms.
[/COLOR][/FONT]

Uh oh... sounds a touch like preaching. ;)

Irony is, as pointed out earlier, our so-called "non-theistic" perspectives are also "theistic" ones. Though granted I'm one of those people who over the years has concluded that the labels "atheist" and "theist" are darned near worthless ones, so... eh. I really wish more discussions would move past those words, I guess. Rubbish words. :D
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
So if someone is in a bad situation, and says, I have Faith God will help me... Is it sure that God will help?
I Don't think so...
I Think the person Actually believes god will help, while the reality is that God will probably won't.
And if so, Faith might cause you saying "Oh.. God helped me because he wanted me to learn a lesson about what I experienced"..
But again, I Might be wrong.. That's how I interpret Faith :)

I find it unreasonable to understand faith in that way. That's closer to wishful thinking (see my, or other's definition for that). Faith is more fundamental. Once it is invoked, you know (or have strong confidence) in the parameters. You may be unaware of what all parameters are, but those you are aware of, you likely have strong confidence in.

Faith is: I have strong confidence I am in a physical body and that my body's eyes can see such and such. Or my body can do such and such. The "such and such" are the parameters, but are not as fundamental as the foundational faith proposition (I am in a physical body, or I am Spirit/Soul in God's domain). From spiritual (possibly philosophical) perspective, faith begins with understanding that your mind can serve one of two 'masters.' How you understand those two, is really up to you. Once either is accepted, Reason enters in the picture and is never devoid of the faith, meaning Reason cannot replace or supersede the fundamental faith. It adds to it, and I think helps increase awareness of additional parameters which may also be supported by faith.

I don't think anyone is yet to understand what love really is...

I see this as somewhat accurate, but also a detractor from what is obvious/self evident. I equate God to Love, and do think it very challenging with words to completely, or accurate, depict what (God's) Love entails. But, I understand as extensions of God, we are also Love, and so "Know thy Self" is understanding own self as Love, and what that entails, plus understand all of us through that filter. Love, to me, would be the fundamental parameter by which all other real things are manifested/created.

So you say Love is basically the essence of everything?

Yes.

Yet this is not really a definition of Love as essence of everything is not really a definition.
If you had to explain Love to a child, How would you describe it?
Do you think a Child will accept an answer like: Love is everything! as a mind easing answer?

I don't think describing Love is sufficient answer to fully understanding / embracing Love, and yet I think it implausible to not embrace it, to some degree.
Here are characteristics of Love that I feel does help in understanding it (intellectually) - though I realize these may be debatable (as I at first debated them):
- Love gives all to all to provide maximum gain to the giver
- Love never condemns, never finds guilt, never entertains / embraces fear
- Love fosters Knowledge, which ultimately supersedes Reason, but if mind is split (willing to serve either of two master), Love naturally embraces Reason
- Love recognizes abundance and peace in all that it looks upon
- Love is incapable of asking for anything
- Love offers perfect protection and is incapable of being threatened
- Love is Innocence, personified

To that I can agree :)

I rejoice.
But intellectually, I do wonder if your agreement is merely with simplistic notion that 'sin is illusionary?'
I ask because sin is, as I defined it previously, lack of Love. That is all perceptual, and thus a whole world (or universe) can emerge by which 'lack of love' is believed to be 'reality' and where separation among God/God's Creation is imagined as how I exist in relation to 'others.'
IOW, if sin were truly undone, this (physical) world would cease to exist. How that plays out and appears, remains to be seen, but being that we are Love, and/or that one might today intellectually grasp basics of Love, would lead to (profound) understanding that this world ceasing to exist would offer zero Reason to associate that with fear, sacrifice, or loss of self.

Here you lost me :)
But i assume that people with actual true love can also Sin no?

Sin is not actual, it is illusionary. From perspective of the other master, everyone is sinning all the time, without exception, and sinning is (clearly) threatening existence/life. Death is inevitable. Pain and suffering are things which you can count on. Doubt is healthy. I could go on, but hopefully you get a basic idea of how treacherous acceptance of sin as 'real / really occurring' is upon the mind. Love undoes all this, via forgiveness. Forgiveness is ultimately an illusion, but is the illusion that ends (all other) illusions. In God's domain, forgiveness is unnecessary. In a world where you/anyone believes themselves to be separate from God (at any moment), forgiveness is your only sane function.

According to religion, BTW, We are all born sinners... so based on your conclusion, We are living in an illusion of love and not experiencing real love?

We are all plausibly living in an illusion of lack of love, and not yet experiencing perfect Love. Forgiveness offers glimpses of actual Love, and by glimpses I mean it may be seconds of awareness or years of experience. But what are years within scope of history of this universe, much less within all of eternity?

The kicker (for me) is that how I perceive anyone that I may at first glance identify as "not me" is ENTIRELY on me. Thus, forgiveness isn't from me to them to change them (wishful thinking), but for me, to change my perception of them, filtering it through perspective of Love/miracles. Miracles open up a whole other intellectual (and experiential) avenue that would lead me to a whole lot of proselytizing, much of which I have come to understand is foremost for me to take care of with my own self, first rather than espouse it as if 'you all need to hear my wisdom so that we can all change together and be ready for God's return.' I fully trust you (general you) are in Good Hands right now, and are exactly where you should be.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
Can you elaborate?
Ignorant people are living in Sin?
If a lie saves lives, Is it a Sin?
If I lie to my son because i think he is not ready to hear an answer and i t will probably make him miserable.. is it a sin?
Separation of mind? Whats that? I am not familiar with this term...Can you please educate me?

So the Cross symbol for Christians is Whole? What does that mean?

Whats a mental slavery? you mean like religion?? ;)

Not quite understand what this means.. can you please elaborate?

I'm gonna need more than that lease :)

Ever have a spirit of stupor, a spirit of anger, a spirit of happiness? Feelings or intuitions of.......

Would you be able to discern a whole mind from a double mind?

There is ignorance and lies that lead to a double mind, while there is ignorance and lies that do not. A wholesome mind would clearly discern which from which. You would rather have your son be comfortable rather than uncomfortable I'd assume.

I don't call anyone a "Christian." There are many diverse human beings that are whole-minded, many languages, semantics of words, many symbols.

There are many things and concepts that minds are enslaved/bonded to.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Hi All,
I Would love to hear your definition of the following:
I Would give my shot definition (An Atheist POV) and would love hearing yours :)

Hope: A desire/expectation that something specific will occur.

Faith: Trust in a belief.

Wish: A desire that something quite unlikely will occur. (The "something" not nearly as possible or likely as that of hope.)

Sin: A transgression of a directive from god, which can carry dire consequences.

Holy: Something consecrated for a religious purpose.

Salvation:
To be saved from the dire consequences of sinning---ending up in Hell..

Soul: The supposed spiritual element of humans, and possibly other animals.

Spirit: Far too many differing concepts to pin down. Depends on context.


.
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
Ever have a spirit of stupor, a spirit of anger, a spirit of happiness? Feelings or intuitions of.......

Would you be able to discern a whole mind from a double mind?

There is ignorance and lies that lead to a double mind, while there is ignorance and lies that do not. A wholesome mind would clearly discern which from which. You would rather have your son be comfortable rather than uncomfortable I'd assume.

I don't call anyone a "Christian." There are many diverse human beings that are whole-minded, many languages, semantics of words, many symbols.

There are many things and concepts that minds are enslaved/bonded to.
Thank you for your reply.. but you haven't explained anything.. you just repeated what you said before in different words...
When you say "Whole" .. What do you mean?
What is double minded? schizophrenic?

Please try to imagine I am not familiar with the terms Spirit, Wholeness and Double minded (Which I am really not.. I Think that every one have its own interpretation for these words...)
How will you explain it to me? (Treat me like a small child please)
 
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