God-Inspired Scripture

Isaiah 61:1 is talking about Isaiah, not a Messiah, or a Jesus Messiah.

Isa 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Isa 1:7Your country is desolate,your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it isdesolate, as overthrown by strangers.

Isa 1:8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

Isa 1:26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

Isa 1:27Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Isa 7:1And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it.

Isa 7:2And it was told the house of David, saying, Syria is confederate with Ephraim. And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the wood are moved with the wind.

61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me (Isaiah) because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 61:3To appoint unto themthat mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Isa 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

Isa 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Isa 62:1For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.

Isa 62:2 And the nations (foreign) shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

Isa 62:3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.

Isa 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.

Isa 62:12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

Isa 64:10 Thy holy cities are a wilderness, Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.

Isa 64:11 Our holy and our beautiful house, where our fathers praised thee, is burned up with fire: and all our pleasant things are laid waste.

Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

Isa 66:10Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

Isa 66:11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.

This was a split war between the North and South. The South had 10 tribes and foreign power. The trembling North had two tribes and part of a third. This is why Ahaz needed a sign from YHVH that he was with them.

EDIT - I thought I should add for clarity's sake, - that there are a couple of passages within Isaiah which some Jews consider to be about the coming Jewish Messiah. However they are within a larger story of a war, Isaiah 11 for instance, but 11:13 makes it plain we are still in the same war noted in Isaiah 1:1, and 7:1 - 2.

Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

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Ingledsva, for this to be a productive discussion, there has to be some background understanding regarding the purpose of prophecy. If the Word of God is reduced to naturalistic statements only, what we have is nothing more than a history of Israel with a few laws attached. There would be no indication of purpose or outcome. What the Messianic promises give us is a completion of God's will.

The reason that I want to establish this understanding of the purpose of prophecy is that it allows for layers of meaning. There exists an earthly historical record, but over this is laid another, even grander picture, which is everlasting, and of God.

And if we are going to make reference to the historical setting, its important to get the geography correct. The ten tribes were in the North, and the two in the South.

Mestemia said:

Ah, so Jesus has physical form in heaven....

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Jesus was seen in a body following his resurrection. To Mary Magdalene he said, 'Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.'
At the point of ascension it says, 'And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.' A little later it says, '..this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.'
This tells me that Jesus is seen on earth but we lose sight as he ascends into heaven. Likewise, when he returns, he will appear from the clouds 'in like manner'. What is clear from 1 Corinthians 15 is that corruption is turned to incorruption and mortality to immortality.

Sapiens said:

Then where is heaven? Habeas corpus!

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I don't have the coordinates, but the signpost is clear enough: Jesus Christ said, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. That's the way to heaven!

Ingledsva said:

They are in this one - http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

And the others as well.

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Thanks for pointing to this site as a source of information.
These are the passages listed as legitimate messianic prophecies.

• Isaiah 2:11; 42; 59:20
• Jeremiah 23:30,33; 48:47; 49:39
• Ezekiel 38:16
• Hosea 3:4-3: 5
• Micah 4
• Zephaniah 3:9
• Zechariah 14:9
• Daniel 10:14

This is how the passages in Isaiah read, using the Jewish Study Bible.

Isaiah 2: 11,12 'Man's haughty look shall be brought low, And the pride of mortals shall be humbled. None but the Lord shall be exalted in that day. For the LORD of Hosts has ready a day Against all that is proud and arrogant, Against all that is lofty - so that it is brought low:.. None but the LORD shall be Exalted in that day (verse 17).

If we were looking at the whole context it would suggest a form of judgment. It says, 'the Lord shall be exalted in that day'. But this alone is interesting. Where is the human Messiah in all this? Do you imagine him to be a human king leading Israel to war? It says, 'the pride of mortals shall be humbled'. If God is to be exalted why do you create a human king to lead armies into battle? Is the warfare of God not the warfare of Truth?

The point I want to make is that this passage is not an island. By reading this passage, which is said to apply to the Messiah, I am automatically led to passages that pick up the same wording and theme. For example, Isaiah 2:9,11 and 17 all point to Isaiah 5:15,16 (11-17 is the context) which says, 'Yea, man is bowed, And mortal brought low; brought low is the pride of the haughty. And the Lord of Hosts is exalted by judgment, the Holy God proved holy by retribution.'

So from Isaiah 2 we have to build in Isaiah 5, and so the picture grows. The day of the Lord is going to be a judgment day, when God is proved holy by retribution.

This same theme is picked up in the passage from Isaiah 61 verse 2, where it talks about 'And a day of vindication by our God;' All these passages are talking about the same event - a future judgment.

Now, you ask, what has this to do with Jesus? Well, if you return to Luke 4:19 you will see that he was quoting from Isaiah 61 in the synagogue in Nazareth. He finishes his reading with the words 'To preach the acceptable year of the Lord', which is translated as 'To proclaim a year of the Lord's favor' in the JSB. He then stops reading. He never says, 'And a day of vindication by our God'. Instead, he says, 'This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.' In other words, he is not coming as the judge this time. He is coming to offer salvation. The vengeance, or vindication of God, still lies at a future time. When Jesus came, he came as a servant to save, not as the Lord of Hosts to judge.

Isaiah 42, 'This is My servant, whom I uphold, My chosen one, in whom I delight. I have put My spirit upon him, He shall teach the true way to the nations. He shall not cry out or shout aloud, Or make his voice heard in the streets. He shall not break even a bruised reed, Or snuff out even a dim wick. He shall bring forth the true way. He shall not grow dim or be bruised Till he has established the true way on the earth; And the coastlands shall await his teaching.
Thus said God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and what it brings forth, Who gave breath to the people upon it And life to those who walk thereon: I the LORD, in My grace, have summoned you, And I have grasped you by the hand. I created you, and appointed you A covenant people, a light of nations - Opening eyes deprived of light, Rescuing prisoners from confinement, From the dungeon those who sit in darkness. I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not yield My glory to another, Nor My renown to idols. See, the things once predicted have come, And now I foretell new things, Announce to you ere they sprout up. Sing to the LORD a new song, His praise from the ends of the earth - You who sail the sea and you creatures in it, You coastlands and their inhabitants! Let the desert and its towns cry aloud, The villages where Kedar dwells; Let Sela's inhabitants shout, Call out from the peaks of the mountains. Let them do honor to the LORD, and tell His glory in the coastlands.
The LORD goes forth like a warrior, Like a fighter He whips up His rage. He yells, He roars aloud, He charges upon His enemies. "I have kept silent for too long, Kept still and restrained Myself; Now I will scream like a woman in labor, I will pant and I will gasp. Hills and heights will I scorch, Cause all their green to wither; I will turn rivers into isles, And dry the marshes up. I will lead the blind By a road they did not know, And I will make them walk By paths they never knew. I will turn darkness before them to light, Rough places into level ground. These are the promises - I will keep them without fail. Driven back and utterly shamed Shall be those who trust in an image, those who say to idols, 'You are our gods!'"
Listen, you who are deaf; You blind ones, look up and see! Who is so blind as My servant, So deaf as the messenger I send? Who is so blind as the chosen one, So blind as the servant of the Lord? Seeing many things, he gives no heed; With ears open, he hears nothing. The LORD desires His [servant's] vindication, That he may magnify and glorify [His] Teaching. Yet it is a people plundered and despoiled: All of them are trapped in holes, Imprisoned in dungeons. They are given over to plunder, with none to rescue them; To despoilment, with none to say " Give back!" If only you would listen to this, Attend and give heed from now on! Who was it that gave Jacob over to despoilment And Israel to plunderers? Surely, the LORD against whom they sinned In whose ways they would not walk And whose Teaching they would not obey. So He poured out wrath upon them, His anger and the fury of war. It blazed upon them all about, but they heeded not; It burned among them, but they gave it no thought.

Is this a passage about Israel, the people? Or is it a passage about the Messiah? Or is it showing up both, as prophecy intends?
The passage begins very positively, with 'He shall teach the true way to the nations'. Is this about Israel (the Jews), or is it about Israel (the Church), or is it about Israel (the Messiah)? Is this still future? Have Israel (the Jews) failed to lead the nations? Or is it that the Messiah (as servant) will go about bringing peace, as in not breaking a 'bruised reed' or snuffing out a 'dim wick'? Nor will the servant be 'bruised' (see Genesis 3:15) 'till he has established the true way on the earth'.
For the 'spirit to be upon him', either Israel has the spirit upon them, or the Church (new Israel) has the spirit upon them, or the spirit is on the individual Messiah. Or a combination.

It would certainly not be hard to make a good case for this being a reference to Christ and the Church, the spirit-filled body of believers.

Then we have the coastlands. To whom does this refer? It's not the nation of Israel, but the nations or isles abroad. How come this follows the foretelling of 'new things'? How come the coastlands tell of 'His glory'? This isn't a prophecy of some future messianic age. I'm calling out from the peak of a mountain right now!

Then you have a passage that states that the blind will have their minds enlightened. As it says, 'I will turn darkness before them to light, Rough places into level ground.' Isn't this what the New Testament does?

Then you have those who hear and see nothing and then face judgment. 'If only you would listen to this, Attend and heed from now on!' Many in Jacob and Israel sin against the Lord because they refuse to walk in his ways.

61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 61:3To appoint unto themthat mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.[/QUOTE]

This passage is worth further comment.
If, as you say, this is Isaiah talking about himself as the 'anointed' one, you find yourself beset with a few problems. Whilst Isaiah may be able to foretell events, and provide warnings, he is not instructed to 'give unto them the beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness, that they might be called the trees of righteousness'. Why not? Because he does not have the power to give the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is the only spirit that can bring about these changes.

Isaiah clearly cannot be referring to Jesus because events covered do not match, plus the whole theme of the book of Isaiah deals with the Jewish necessity of following of the Mosaiic Law, including punishment if the Law is not followed as God directs. Since Christianity abandoned the Law very early on, the prophecies simply cannot be related to the formation of the church built on Jesus.

Aquinas noted this, for example, and taught that Isaiah could only be used as sort of a "prefiguring" (symbolic construct) of Jesus that would take place centuries later. IOW, there's really no direct connectection but more of a symbolic one.

Redemptionsong said:

So far, then, we can agree. Jesus was crucified, he died, and his Spirit returned to the Father, from whence it had come (Mark 1:10).
According to the scriptures, the soul of Jesus descended into the grave. It remained there for three days and nights before being raised back to life in a body. The new body was immortal, for in this new body Jesus ascended to heaven in a cloud. In heaven Jesus sat down at the right hand of his Father, there to take dominion.
Do you agree with this too?

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The following summary is the Baha'i view:

Thou hast written concerning the meeting of His Highness Christ after the crucifixion and that some of the apostles perceived Him but did not recognize Him; but that they did recognize Him after the breaking of bread.

Know thou that the Messianic Spirit and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is always manifest, but capacity and ability (to receive it) is more in some and less in others. After the crucifixion the apostles had not in the beginning the capacity and ability of witnessing the Messianic reality. For they were agitated. But when they found firmness and steadfastness, their inner sight became opened, and they saw the reality of the Messiah as manifest. For the body of Christ was crucified and vanished, but the Spirit of Christ is always pouring upon the contingent world, and is manifest before the insight of the people of assurance.

"Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas", Vol. 1 (Chicago: Bahá'í Publishing Society), p. 193-194


...The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it. Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection....

"Some Answered Questions", rev. ed. (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1984), p. 104

arthra said:

In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it. Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection....

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This sounds similar, but how can you accept the leading of the Holy Spirit and the teaching of Muhammad as compatible? The teaching of Muhammad is a return to law without love. Even in his practice, Muhamamd demonstrated revenge against his enemies.

metis said:

Isaiah clearly cannot be referring to Jesus because events covered do not match, plus the whole theme of the book of Isaiah deals with the Jewish necessity of following of the Mosaiic Law, including punishment if the Law is not followed as God directs. Since Christianity abandoned the Law very early on, the prophecies simply cannot be related to the formation of the church built on Jesus.

Aquinas noted this, for example, and taught that Isaiah could only be used as sort of a "prefiguring" (symbolic construct) of Jesus that would take place centuries later. IOW, there's really no direct connectection but more of a symbolic one.

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Metis, it is wrong to say that Jesus, or Paul, taught that the law should be abandoned. Where in scripture do you get this idea?
I would also question your summary of Aquinas' teaching on prophecy. Aquinas sees the pre-figuring as just one of the ways in which God reveals his will and purpose.
As regards Isaiah, it's clear that he does make references to the Messiah and the Messianic age. I can see certain passages matching the life of Jesus and the Church beautifully, but there remain prophecies which have yet to be fulfilled. In some of the posts above you will find specific passages that Jews regard as legitinate prophecies to the coming Messiah. I have noted how, in the two passages from Isaiah, these can easily be seen as references to the Jesus as Messiah. The discussion is on-going!

Redemptionsong said:

Metis, it is wrong to say that Jesus, or Paul, taught that the law should be abandoned. Where in scripture do you get this idea?

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Try here:

Matthew 5:31-32: “everyone who divorces his wife… forces her to commit adultery.”
5:38: “’an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth’… offer no resistance.”
8:22: “Jesus told him, ‘Follow me, and let the dead bury the dead.”
21:43: “The kingdom of God taken away from you and given to another.”

Luke 16:16: “The Law and the prophets were in force until John.”

John 8:44: “The father you spring from is the devil… The Jews answered… .”

Romans 6:14: “Sin will no longer have power over you; you are under grace, not under the Law.”
7:6: “Now we are released from the Law.”
10:4: “Christ is the end of the Law.”
11:20: They were cut off because of their unbelief and you are there because of faith.”
14:20: “All foods are clean.”

I Corinthians 7:19: “Circumcision counts for nothing.”

Galatians 3:10: “All who depend on the observance of the Law… are under a curse.”
5:2: “If you have yourself circumcised, Christ will be of no use to you.”
5:4 “Any of you who seek your justification in the Law have severed yourself from Christ and fallen from God’s favor.”
6:15: “It means nothing whether you are circumcised or not.”

Ephesians 2:15: “In his own flesh he abolished the Law with its commands and precepts.”

Hebrews 7:18: “The former Commandment (I.e. priests according to the order of Melchizedek) has been annulled because of its weakness and uselessness.”
8:7: “If that first Covenant had been faultless, there would have been no place for a second one.”
8:13: “When he says ‘a new covenant’, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing.”
10:9: “In other words, he takes away the first Covenant to establish the second.”

I would also question your summary of Aquinas' teaching on prophecy. Aquinas sees the pre-figuring as just one of the ways in which God reveals his will and purpose.

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You clearly have not read Aquinas' works.

As regards Isaiah, it's clear that he does make references to the Messiah and the Messianic age. I can see certain passages matching the life of Jesus and the Church beautifully, but there remain prophecies which have yet to be fulfilled. In some of the posts above you will find specific passages that Jews regard as legitinate prophecies to the coming Messiah. I have noted how, in the two passages from Isaiah, these can easily be seen as references to the Jesus as Messiah. The discussion is on-going!

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You see Jesus in the prophecies because you've been conditioned to see Jesus in the prophecies. So, let's expand this a bit and see if Jesus has fulfilled them all:

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)
For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3–7)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvoth
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)

Until they're all fulfilled, he simply cannot be the Messiah at this point in time.

@metis , you forgot:


(Sorry, I can't seem to find the reference.)

Jayhawker Soule said:

@metis , you forgot:

Behold, the words of the Prophets and the Psalms are Holy Writ to be taken literally and embraced in their entirely.​

(Sorry, I can't seem to find the reference.)

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Me thinks you just made it up.

Redemptionsong said:

OK. What's so absurd about Genesis? [I fear it may take us some time to reach Luke]

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The earth and water before the stars?

Ciao

- viole

Sapiens said:

Then where is heaven? Habeas corpus!

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Redemptionsong said:

I don't have the coordinates, but the signpost is clear enough: Jesus Christ said, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. That's the way to heaven!

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Well, if you wanna be "technical", then the way to Heaven is simply up. "Heaven" (Old English) used mean "Sky" (Old Norse)... the latter word meaning "cloud" in its native language.

By that reckoning, I've been to Heaven a few times, before. The view is SPECTACULAR. Especially when opening the plane's window at Sundown (technically not supposed to, but I couldn't resist ) and glimpsing a dazzling display of color at the horizon below.

viole said:

The earth and water before the stars?

Ciao

- viole

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And before Sun, apparently.

metis said:

Try here:

Matthew 5:31-32: “everyone who divorces his wife… forces her to commit adultery.”
5:38: “’an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth’… offer no resistance.”
8:22: “Jesus told him, ‘Follow me, and let the dead bury the dead.”
21:43: “The kingdom of God taken away from you and given to another.”

Luke 16:16: “The Law and the prophets were in force until John.”

John 8:44: “The father you spring from is the devil… The Jews answered… .”

Romans 6:14: “Sin will no longer have power over you; you are under grace, not under the Law.”
7:6: “Now we are released from the Law.”
10:4: “Christ is the end of the Law.”
11:20: They were cut off because of their unbelief and you are there because of faith.”
14:20: “All foods are clean.”

I Corinthians 7:19: “Circumcision counts for nothing.”

Galatians 3:10: “All who depend on the observance of the Law… are under a curse.”
5:2: “If you have yourself circumcised, Christ will be of no use to you.”
5:4 “Any of you who seek your justification in the Law have severed yourself from Christ and fallen from God’s favor.”
6:15: “It means nothing whether you are circumcised or not.”

Ephesians 2:15: “In his own flesh he abolished the Law with its commands and precepts.”

Hebrews 7:18: “The former Commandment (I.e. priests according to the order of Melchizedek) has been annulled because of its weakness and uselessness.”
8:7: “If that first Covenant had been faultless, there would have been no place for a second one.”
8:13: “When he says ‘a new covenant’, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing.”
10:9: “In other words, he takes away the first Covenant to establish the second.”

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Metis,
This is what you failed to quote from Romans 3:31: 'Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.'
This is what you failed to quote from Galatians 3:30,31,'Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do you then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.'
Note how Paul repeats this statement to both the Roman and Galatian Churches.
And again in Galatians 5:14, 'For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.'
Galatians 5:18,'But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.'

My concern with the wording you have used, is that it gives the impression that the law was not profitable or good. But the law was profitable because as Paul says in Romans 3:20, 'for by the law is the knowledge of sin.'
In 1 Timothy 1:8 he says, 'But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully.'

Think about it in relation to the prophecy from Jeremiah 31:33. Paul quotes this twice in Hebrews. Firstly at Hebrews 8:10,11 and again in Hebrews 10:16. 'I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts'.
This is not an abandonment of the law. It's a FULFILLING of the law.

Redemptionsong said:

This sounds similar, but how can you accept the leading of the Holy Spirit and the teaching of Muhammad as compatible? The teaching of Muhammad is a return to law without love. Even in his practice, Muhamamd demonstrated revenge against his enemies.

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You may be misunderstanding the mission of Prophet Muhammad which is not unusual these days as there have been years of prejudice over a span of centuries...

I would encourage you to read the following article..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kamran-pasha/the-mercy-of-prophet-muhammad_b_1879601.html

God must exist before scripture can be called god-inspired. At present god has yet to be proven to exist, except in the minds of humans. In that respect, god-inspired-scripture can not exist.

Redemptionsong said:

Metis,
This is what you failed to quote from Romans 3:31: 'Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.'
This is what you failed to quote from Galatians 3:30,31,'Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do you then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.'
Note how Paul repeats this statement to both the Roman and Galatian Churches.
And again in Galatians 5:14, 'For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.'
Galatians 5:18,'But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.'

My concern with the wording you have used, is that it gives the impression that the law was not profitable or good. But the law was profitable because as Paul says in Romans 3:20, 'for by the law is the knowledge of sin.'
In 1 Timothy 1:8 he says, 'But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully.'

Think about it in relation to the prophecy from Jeremiah 31:33. Paul quotes this twice in Hebrews. Firstly at Hebrews 8:10,11 and again in Hebrews 10:16. 'I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts'.
This is not an abandonment of the law. It's a FULFILLING of the law.

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What you are missing is Jesus' take on the Law and how it relates to what the Law actually says. All you have done above is simply to ignore the many verses that contradict what you have said. For example, tell us how exactly does one "fulfill the Law"? Ever stop to think about that?

Also, note that your Galatians 5:18 quote actually undermines what you have claimed. So, you really can't have it both ways-- either a Jew is under the Law in its entirety or they're not. Assuming you're not Jewish, you are not under the Law, btw.

In order to understand and get beyond what you have been conditioned to believe, you really need to study the Law. Jesus' take is not necessarily wrong, but it needs to be placed in its proper context, and only one who is quite familiar with how the Law relates can help you on this.

viole said:

The earth and water before the stars?

Ciao

- viole

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Hi Viole,

I believe God starts the book of his Word with the power of his Word. Through his Word he creates all that is created. The spirit of God brings things into being by the authority and life that is in his Word. This is confirmed by Colossians 1:16,'For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:'

Have you ever wondered why God gives us the Genesis account? I think it's because all faith rests on God being the creator. The whole of creation is divided into two by this premise alone. There are sheep and there are goats.

The wording of Genesis is worth a close look. Many commentators have noticed how verse one is separated from verse two. This is because of the language used in verse two, 'And the earth was [became] without form, and void', is not in keeping with God's original creation.

There is then a sequence of events which help to establish the use of days, weeks and of time generally. The week is the time period for this heaven and earth. The framework of the Bible is caught between two verses. In Genesis 1:1 we have, 'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth'. In Revelation 21: 1 it says, And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.'

Why was there no more sea? Because sea is seen as a symbol of death!

So if we begin to think that there is more in this Genesis account than meets the eye, we might approach it with a bit more respect.
What about the sun, moon and stars appearing on day four? Well, if each day is seen as a thousand years, there is something significant about the appearance of these heavenly bodies at this stage in the unveiling of God's will and purpose. Doesn't Abraham receive the promise that his descendents, or seed, will 'be as the stars'? Is it not the coming Messiah who is given the description 'Sun of Righteousness' (Malachi 4:2)?

These verses demand our attention. Let's not forget that when Jesus told the parable of the Sower he described the pathway as the man whose heart is hardened and unreceptive. Are we to be like that?