Can creation and evolution co-exist?

cvipertooth · Oct 29, 2004

I have grown up, as a christian, to believe that creationism and evolutionism are completely opposite and it is impossible to believe in evolution withouth denying that God is the absolute moral creator of this universe. Today, after learning about evolution in my biology class, I came home and opened my Bible up to Genesis...

Genesis 1:2= "Now the Earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

hmmmm.......sounds to me like this could be some sort of primordial soup.

Genesis 1:3= "And God said 'let there be light' and there was light...God called the light 'day' and the darkness 'night'"

Genesis 1:14= "And God said 'Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to seperate the day from the night, let them serve as signs to mark the seasons and the days and the years"

Now, if there was light in 1:3 and then the light that was in the sky (or the sun) wasnt set into place until 1:14, what was the light in between? The light of God's glory? Also, if there was no set time until 1:14 to seperate days, could this period of time between 1:3 and 1:14 where seed plants come onto earth (1:11) be what we know as the Precambrian Era, which accounts from January 1 to mid october on the theoretical calendar? This period of time could be however long God wanted it to be, since God is eternal and is not boudn by time.

Also, the name Adam means made of red clay in hebrew. How exaclty does that mean one person? Could Adam be represented only because he is the beginning of the lineage of Christ? What is to say God did not create "people" before or outside of the Garden Of Eden?

Genesis 1:26-27= "Then God said 'let us make man in our own image, in our likeness, and let him rule over the fish of the sea and the birds in the air, over livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground' (27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

Genesis 2:7= "the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

In my Bible there is a footnote for the man and according to my Bible, the man means Adam. hmmm. so god created man in his own image in 1:27 but then created adam in 2:7. Was Adam the first, or was Adam the first in the line of Jesus?

I am neither trying to disprove Creation or Evolution, i am rather trying to find a medium between the two. This is a battle that will be fought until Christ comes back but maybe that means that neither side of this argument is wrong. Please give me your opinions and insight.

Doc · Oct 30, 2004

I think it is possible to believe in both to some extent. I believe that God did create the Earth and man but I think that over time, species can change a little bit. Usually adapting to different environments and climates. And God making man out of clay can prove that the first beings on the planet came from the Earth itself. But it required him to make that lifeless form into a man. I guess both sides have their strong and weak points!

Jayhawker Soule · Oct 30, 2004

The Bible is the product of man.
Genesis conflates two variants of its creation myth.
The Torah has nothing to do with Jesus.
Evolution has nothing to do with creation.

standing_on_one_foot · Oct 30, 2004

Well, I don't think it's possible to believe that creation literally happened the way it's described in the Bible while believing in evolution at the same time, but I don't think it's in the least impossible to believe that there was a God who created or started up or whatever you like the universe and that life evolves. Personally, I think ending up with humans through evolution is a lot more impressive and complex and beautiful and lots of other adjectives than just making a clay...statue, if you will, snapping your fingers, and POOF! having him come to life, but that's just me, I suppose...and for the record, I'm not implying humans are the end result of evolution or the pinnacle of evolution or what evolution "had in mind" or anything, I'm just saying we did come out of it and I think that's kinda cool.

And, by default, unless humans were created twice, the first man would have to be the first in the line of Jesus. That's rather the point. He'd be the first man in everyone's line.

cvipertooth · Oct 30, 2004

Deut. 32.8 said:
The Bible is the product of man.
Genesis conflates two variants of its creation myth.

Of course the bible was written by man, this only further justifies my point. Genesis was written by an imperfect man. If the author of Genesis was incapable of understanding the power of God, as all mankind is, how would he have told the difference between one day and 1.3 billion years, if the only light present was that of the glory of God? About your second comment i'm not sure I understand could you please elaborate?

Deut. 32.8 said:
The Torah has nothing to do with Jesus.
Evolution has nothing to do with creation.

I'm sorry but the Torah,, or the Pentatuech has everything to do with Jesus. Adam's family tree is also that of Abraham, David, and finally Jesus. This is found in the geneologies of Genesis and Matthew.

standing_on_one_foot said:
Well, I don't think it's possible to believe that creation literally happened the way it's described in the Bible while believing in evolution at the same time, but I don't think it's in the least impossible to believe that there was a God who created or started up or whatever you like the universe and that life evolves.

Of course, you cannot take the entire Bible as literal truth. There are many instances of symbolism in the Bible. Too many to count. I am not saying that the whole Bible is symbolic but there are some parts that it would seem like the author was on a very bad acid trip (ex. Revelation)

standing_on_one_foot said:
Personally, I think ending up with humans through evolution is a lot more impressive and complex and beautiful and lots of other adjectives than just making a clay...statue, if you will, snapping your fingers, and POOF! having him come to life, but that's just me

We were made for God's pleasure. What better way to create something that would choose to worship him (as opposed to "robots" who worship him blindly) than to create mankind that is completely self-sufficient and is capable of creating new life itself? You are right, there are not words to describe how perfect the creation of God is, and the evolution theory is also a beautiful thing. I think the world would be a better place both sides of this arguemnet could just "get along"

Ceridwen018 · Oct 30, 2004

I think it's perfectly acceptable to believe in evolution and god, cvipertooth. As you seemed to be picking up, the creation account in genesis runs much like evolution might have--plants formed, then animals, then humans, etc. How does god fit? Well, you could say that he instigated everything, or that everything happened because he planned it so, etc. It is not outlandish at all to believe in both evolution and god.

cvipertooth · Oct 30, 2004

Ceridwen018 said:
I think it's perfectly acceptable to believe in evolution and god, cvipertooth. As you seemed to be picking up, the creation account in genesis runs much like evolution might have--plants formed, then animals, then humans, etc. How does god fit? Well, you could say that he instigated everything, or that everything happened because he planned it so, etc. It is not outlandish at all to believe in both evolution and god.

Ceridwen, I also believe that there are many more instances that there can be gaps bridged between Christianity and many other religions or beliefs or what have you. the Bible explains everything you need to know for life and I believe that Christianity in its true form is the perfect religion. What makes it unappealing to many people is not the religion itself, but the people who interpret it falsly and then impose it onto other is the wrong way.

Jayhawker Soule · Oct 30, 2004

cvipertooth said:
... Christianity in its true form is the perfect religion.

Christianity, in its true form, is base fabrication predicated upon superstition and anti-Judaism. It is a history rife with ignorance and deceipt.

Green Gaia · Oct 30, 2004

Off topic here, but I'll allow it and play along...

IMO, Christianity in it's true form would be about people finding the Christ within themselves and becoming Christ-like, which modern Christianity seems to have completely forgotten and rejected as blasphemous.

wizanda · Oct 31, 2004

As far as a lot of top evovolutionist are concerned many turn into christian or believe in god as a lot of the science behind evolution doesn't work
For instance the wood peckers toungue goes around the back of heads through its nostrals and then out its mouth as to not bite through its toungue when pecking
There is no other bird even simular so it dosent make sense it evovled
Ok if the big bang occured what laid out all the quarks and atoms so that they function in the way they do
Else we would just be in chaos which we are not the world moves in 6 diffrent directions at over 1,000,000,000,000 miles an hour and we sit here still talking on a machine on a rock in space>?
In our own bodys every 7 years you are a completly diffrent person as every cell in your body has regenerated its self
Yet when a celll does reform it makes an exsact copy of it self we dont grow extra arms as we have a lot to do
The same applies with when a baby is formed it copies a structure
so if evolution happens it is slight improvements like the shape of the nose or longer arms
If evolution was a fact we would have half breads all over the place yet we dont infact nature works in symbiosis
For nature to have evovled to be symbiotic and to function correctly it would have had to have a design before it started for it all to work as it does
Else there would be to many missing peices to the puzzle which is why so many top scientist become believers in god

standing_on_one_foot · Oct 31, 2004

wizanda said:
As far as a lot of top evovolutionist are concerned many turn into christian or believe in god as a lot of the science behind evolution doesn't work
For instance the wood peckers toungue goes around the back of heads through its nostrals and then out its mouth as to not bite through its toungue when pecking
There is no other bird even simular so it dosent make sense it evovled
Ok if the big bang occured what laid out all the quarks and atoms so that they function in the way they do
Else we would just be in chaos which we are not the world moves in 6 diffrent directions at over 1,000,000,000,000 miles an hour and we sit here still talking on a machine on a rock in space>?
In our own bodys every 7 years you are a completly diffrent person as every cell in your body has regenerated its self
Yet when a celll does reform it makes an exsact copy of it self we dont grow extra arms as we have a lot to do
The same applies with when a baby is formed it copies a structure
so if evolution happens it is slight improvements like the shape of the nose or longer arms
If evolution was a fact we would have half breads all over the place yet we dont infact nature works in symbiosis
For nature to have evovled to be symbiotic and to function correctly it would have had to have a design before it started for it all to work as it does
Else there would be to many missing peices to the puzzle which is why so many top scientist become believers in god

Alright, I'm not going to respond to all of these because it's pretty off topic here (we're not debating whether evolution is correct or not, just whether it can work with religion), but if you really want to talk about all this, I'd be happy to start a new thread. You interested in pursuing this?

huajiro · Oct 31, 2004

I had put a post in a different thread related to this subject. I do think both can co-exist if you consider that "God" does not live by our rules. Who says he/she did not create the single-celled organism which over millions of years became man? Who says that our 700 million years are not like 7 to him/her?

cvipertooth · Oct 31, 2004

Cvipertooth (Me) said:
I believe that Christianity in its true form is the perfect religion.

I would like to start off by withdrawing this statement. what I was trying to say, is that if people would get out of their pigeon holes (Christians and non-christians alike) and look at the other side of the arguement there could be many parallels between many contraversial topics, ultimately leading to a religion that works for everyone.

Deut. 32.8 said:
Christianity, in its true form, is base fabrication predicated upon superstition and anti-Judaism. It is a history rife with ignorance and deceipt.

This is probably the most presumtious statement I have ever heard before in my life. I find it hard to believe that all 40 authors of the 66 books of the Bible got together in the pervebial meeting room and said "hm, I wonder whats goin on in the world" "oh I dunno lets make up sumthin that goes against them Jews" This goes back to what I said in an earlier post. It is not the religion that people hate, it is the people who contort the religion that people hate. After returning from church today I realized that the fellowship I experience there is like no other. For someone to tell me that Christians are just a bunch of non-loving fundamentalist bozos deeply offends me.

wizanda said:
As far as a lot of top evovolutionist are concerned many turn into christian or believe in god as a lot of the science behind evolution doesn't work
For instance the wood peckers toungue goes around the back of heads through its nostrals and then out its mouth as to not bite through its toungue when pecking
There is no other bird even simular so it dosent make sense it evovled
Ok if the big bang occured what laid out all the quarks and atoms so that they function in the way they do
Else we would just be in chaos which we are not the world moves in 6 diffrent directions at over 1,000,000,000,000 miles an hour and we sit here still talking on a machine on a rock in space>?
In our own bodys every 7 years you are a completly diffrent person as every cell in your body has regenerated its self
Yet when a celll does reform it makes an exsact copy of it self we dont grow extra arms as we have a lot to do
The same applies with when a baby is formed it copies a structure
so if evolution happens it is slight improvements like the shape of the nose or longer arms
If evolution was a fact we would have half breads all over the place yet we dont infact nature works in symbiosis
For nature to have evovled to be symbiotic and to function correctly it would have had to have a design before it started for it all to work as it does
Else there would be to many missing peices to the puzzle which is why so many top scientist become believers in god

I understand everything in this thread and its all good and well, but im not sure what it has to do with evolution and creation co-existing.

painted wolf · Oct 31, 2004

I believe that my spirituality and the theory of evolution are not at odds. Then again I'm not christian, so things are a bit different for me.

wa:do

cvipertooth · Oct 31, 2004

Cvipertooth said:
I understand everything in this thread and its all good and well, but im not sure what it has to do with evolution and creation co-existing.

I need to replace "thread" with "post. My mistake.

huajiro · Oct 31, 2004

painted wolf said:
I believe that my spirituality and the theory of evolution are not at odds. Then again I'm not christian, so things are a bit different for me.

wa:do

Please elaborate on comment, I am very curious as to what your belief is.

painted wolf · Oct 31, 2004

Well without giving a long discource on my beliefs....

I believe in Creator, my people have many stories about how the world was made, and they are a part of the culture that helps us identify ourselves and our place in creation. All agree that man, animals and plants are all brothers and sisters in creation. Most have man being the youngest brother/sister needing to learn from our elder brothers/sisters. The idea of evolution therefore fits quite nicely into my worldview. The Lakota have a saying that sums up the idea perfectly "Mitakuye Oyasi[size=-1]n"- We are all related.

hope this helps.

wa:do
[/size]

linwood · Nov 2, 2004

wizanda For instance the wood peckers toungue goes around the back of heads through its nostrals and then out its mouth as to not bite through its toungue when pecking. There is no other bird even simular so it dosent make sense it evovled [/quote said:
You have been misinformed, this is not how a Woodpeckers tongue works.
In fact a Woodpeckers tongue is support for evolution as it is designed and based just like most other birds it has been slightly altered to account for it`s method of feeding...evolution.
http://omega.med.yale.edu/~rjr38/Woodpecker.htm

Else we would just be in chaos which we are not the world moves in 6 diffrent directions at over 1,000,000,000,000 miles an hour and we sit here still talking on a machine on a rock in space>?

Click to expand...

It`s awesome isn`t it!!?
It all sits pretty well with the physical laws of nature as we know them.
Do you have something more certain to establish a theory on?

The rest of your post shows that you need to learn what evolution is because it doesn`t work the way you think it does.
Some study on the genome and DNA would be good too.

Just4Jesus · Nov 2, 2004

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to realize that God created man from dust, and he did so over millions of years, adding once piece after another until he got his final product, man. The Bible isn't meant to be taken literally word for word. It's the message that's important. Not how God created things. It's the end-product that we should be concerned about. Why can't we all stop arguing and get along? The more I learn about science, the more I am delighted in the way God created things.

cvipertooth · Nov 2, 2004

Just4Jesus said:
I don't understand why it's so hard for people to realize that God created man from dust, and he did so over millions of years, adding once piece after another until he got his final product, man. The Bible isn't meant to be taken literally word for word. It's the message that's important. Not how God created things. It's the end-product that we should be concerned about. Why can't we all stop arguing and get along? The more I learn about science, the more I am delighted in the way God created things.

amen to that! That i exactly what this entire thread is about. It is utterly ridiculous to argue over it. I would really be hating life if my salvation was to be decided on whether I "belived in evolution, or belived in creation"

Can creation and evolution co-exist?

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