Should Christians celebrate Christmas

Forgemaster · Jan 1, 2016

Muffled said:
believe God never told me once that I was a failure. I believe I prefer living on my knees to living with my head up my behind kissing it goodbye.

The bible Often says we are failures. The bible is so full of contradictions it is really rather ridiculous. Why live on my knees in subjugation to something that neither needs me nor acknowledges my existence when I can live a life that makes the most if the time I have. Why be the sheep when you can be the wolf, tall and proud.

URAVIP2ME · Jan 1, 2016

Forgemaster said:
Well you are a Christian so of course it appears to be false to you, and it's hard to love someone that tells you you're a failure and expects you to live on your knees.

Forgemaster, am I to think you do Not mean literally ' live on one's knees ', but more like live by using the avenue of prayer ?

Jesus said the religious leaders were failures. They had God's Word (Scripture ) but did Not abide by it.
As for the rest of the people he said they were skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd - Matthew 9:36
That did Not make the people as failures, but made the false religious leaders as failures.
We are to ' repent ' if we do Not want to ' perish ' ( or be destroyed as the wicked will be destroyed - Psalms 92:7 ) - 2 Peter 3:9 B

Also, does Romans 10:10-12; Romans 10:13-15 have anything to do with being on one's knees ?

Forgemaster · Jan 1, 2016

No I do not literally mean live on ones knees. I just don't see the point in worshipping and living in complete control of something that I don't believe is there. I've found that as my time as a Christian was spent in misery while my time as a Pagan has been joyful, you see the world in a different way.

URAVIP2ME · Jan 1, 2016

Forgemaster said:
The bible Often says we are failures. The bible is so full of contradictions it is really rather ridiculous. Why live on my knees in subjugation to something that neither needs me nor acknowledges my existence when I can live a life that makes the most if the time I have. Why be the sheep when you can be the wolf, tall and proud.

Tall and proud is a good thing when used to take pride in one's self or another - 2 Thessalonians 1:3-4

Contradictions or seeming contradictions. Can you give me just one example on your mind.

Without government we would have anarchy.
Just because Jesus will have subjects - Psalms 72:8 - does Not mean being on one's knees, just as being a citizen or subject of a country does Not mean being on one's knees.

True, we all fall short, but Jesus balanced the Scales of Justice for us so that we are Not viewed as falling short if we repent - Matthew 25:37 - 2 Peter 3:9 B

Forgemaster · Jan 1, 2016

Well I suppose the biggest thing is your God is supposed to be all powerful, he made everything and made up all the rules for how things are supposed to work. The bible says nothing surprises him, he knows everything that's going to ever happen. Yet, he made the devil, let him corrupt humans, then he required his son (himself?) to be killed in order to forgive us. So if he knows everything then why did he make the devil? Why did he make the tree that allowed humans to "sin" and then, if he makes of the rules, why does he/his son need to die in order to forgive us, should he not be able to forgive us as he sees fit?

URAVIP2ME · Jan 1, 2016

Forgemaster said:
Well I suppose the biggest thing is your God is supposed to be all powerful, he made everything and made up all the rules for how things are supposed to work. The bible says nothing surprises him, he knows everything that's going to ever happen. Yet, he made the devil, let him corrupt humans, then he required his son (himself?) to be killed in order to forgive us. So if he knows everything then why did he make the devil? Why did he make the tree that allowed humans to "sin" and then, if he makes of the rules, why does he/his son need to die in order to forgive us, should he not be able to forgive us as he sees fit?

First of all, please take comfort in the words of 1 John 1:7 B

Is God all powerful? According to Titus 1:2 God can Not lie. So, there are things God can Not do. Also, God can Not die - Psalms 90:2
Since God gave us the gift of free will, then God does Not take back his free-will gift. That means God does Not interfere with our choices. We are Not created as robots.
True, God does know the ending - Revelation 22:2 - but as to who will be part of such happiness is an unknown number - Revelation 7:9; Revelation 7:14
Just as the grains of the sands of the seashore are unknown, not counted, who will be sheep or goats is yet unknown - Jeremiah 33:22; Matthew 25:31-33
We have the free will to repent, or if Not, then we will perish ( be destroyed ) by our own choice. - 2 Peter 3:9; Psalms 92:7
Did God make the Devil rebel ? Free-willed Satan was Not tempted, Not persecuted, but simply failed in showing love. Please note James 1:13-15
By Satan allowing himself to develop a wrong desire to be worshipped by humans led to his own downfall.
Also, please notice the challenge Satan makes about us at Job 2:4-5 that ' touch our flesh ' ( loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God under adverse conditions.
Both Job and Jesus proved Satan a liar and so can we.

That one tree simply stood for the Law. Adam and Eve were banished from paradisical Eden for breaking the Law which carried the death penalty.
If we could stop sinning we would Not die, and since we can Not resurrect oneself or another, we need someone who can resurrect us. Jesus can and will <- Revelation 1:18
Because Jesus was sinless he was able to balance the Scales of Justice for us undoing what father Adam brought upon us Romans 6:23; Romans 6:7
Remember: the time is coming when ' enemy death ' will be No more on earth under Christ's coming millennium-long day of governing over earth in righteousness.
- 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8 ; Revelation 21:4-5 when earth's nations will be healed - Revelation 22:2
Please notice at Revelation 22:2 because we see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on earth for the healing of earth's nations.
Jesus will fulfill God's promise to Abraham - Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18 - that All families of earth, and All nations of earth, will be blessed. Blessed with the benefits of the healing of earth's nations under Christ's coming millennial reign over earth.

URAVIP2ME · Jan 1, 2016

starlite said:
Furthermore, there is no Bible record of Jesus asking us to celebrate his birth, but he does command us to commemorate his death and the date is recorded so we can at the proper time.

How accurate ^ above ^ that Jesus did Not ask us to celebrate his birthday, but specifically said what to do in remembrance of him at Luke 22:19
Since Jesus died on the Jewish lunar calendar date of the Spring month of Nisan the 14th day, then we do know the proper time. - Ecclesiastes 7:1 B

Ingledsva · Jan 1, 2016

Muffled said:
I believe your beliefs are unsubstantiated. I believe a virgin birth serves as a sign from God that the child is not an ordinary child but God with us, so it is a confirmation of what Jesus says about Himself since anyone can say that but not everyone can be born that way.

We know that virgin verse is taken from Isaiah.

It is actually maiden - not virgin - so nothing miraculous.

It - as shown - takes place during the war in which Ahaz and Isaiah find themselves.

The sign is for AHAZ, - and as such can not be about a future Jesus.

Isa 7:1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it.

Isa 7:4 And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.

Isa 7:7 Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.

Isa 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

Isa 7:9 And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a maiden shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Those Kings are mentioned in Isa 7:1 and Isa 7:4, etc.

Before the child is old enough to know good from evil - both of those kings will be forsaken.

OBVIOUSLY NOT A FUTURE JESUS.

Nor would the Jewish Messiah require a virgin birth.

*

Forgemaster · Jan 1, 2016

URAVIP2ME said:
First of all, please take comfort in the words of 1 John 1:7 B

Is God all powerful? According to Titus 1:2 God can Not lie. So, there are things God can Not do. Also, God can Not die - Psalms 90:2
Since God gave us the gift of free will, then God does Not take back his free-will gift. That means God does Not interfere with our choices. We are Not created as robots.
True, God does know the ending - Revelation 22:2 - but as to who will be part of such happiness is an unknown number - Revelation 7:9; Revelation 7:14
Just as the grains of the sands of the seashore are unknown, not counted, who will be sheep or goats is yet unknown - Jeremiah 33:22; Matthew 25:31-33
We have the free will to repent, or if Not, then we will perish ( be destroyed ) by our own choice. - 2 Peter 3:9; Psalms 92:7
Did God make the Devil rebel ? Free-willed Satan was Not tempted, Not persecuted, but simply failed in showing love. Please note James 1:13-15
By Satan allowing himself to develop a wrong desire to be worshipped by humans led to his own downfall.
Also, please notice the challenge Satan makes about us at Job 2:4-5 that ' touch our flesh ' ( loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God under adverse conditions.
Both Job and Jesus proved Satan a liar and so can we.

That one tree simply stood for the Law. Adam and Eve were banished from paradisical Eden for breaking the Law which carried the death penalty.
If we could stop sinning we would Not die, and since we can Not resurrect oneself or another, we need someone who can resurrect us. Jesus can and will <- Revelation 1:18
Because Jesus was sinless he was able to balance the Scales of Justice for us undoing what father Adam brought upon us Romans 6:23; Romans 6:7
Remember: the time is coming when ' enemy death ' will be No more on earth under Christ's coming millennium-long day of governing over earth in righteousness.
- 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8 ; Revelation 21:4-5 when earth's nations will be healed - Revelation 22:2
Please notice at Revelation 22:2 because we see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on earth for the healing of earth's nations.
Jesus will fulfill God's promise to Abraham - Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18 - that All families of earth, and All nations of earth, will be blessed. Blessed with the benefits of the healing of earth's nations under Christ's coming millennial reign over earth.

Well first off I fail to see why I need to be comforted, as I said earlier, life as a pagan is joyful. But the fact remains, if God knew we were going to fail, as you believe he would know, as not knowing wouldn't make him a very all powerful being, why would he set us up to fail? And you say Jesus balanced the scales by why was that necessary? God could simply tilt the scales whatever way he wanted. So really either he doesn't know everything or we are just a plaything to him to keep him entertained, or perhaps he doesn't exist at all. Any of those answers wouldn't make a very good case for your God. But I've noticed that people who become Christs sheep rarely see the negative, they have accepted that they are nothing and have no desire to keep an open mind. But at least you have a truth in your life, o however cannot accept that

URAVIP2ME · Jan 2, 2016

Forgemaster said:
Well first off I fail to see why I need to be comforted, as I said earlier, life as a pagan is joyful. But the fact remains, if God knew we were going to fail, as you believe he would know, as not knowing wouldn't make him a very all powerful being, why would he set us up to fail? And you say Jesus balanced the scales by why was that necessary? God could simply tilt the scales whatever way he wanted. So really either he doesn't know everything or we are just a plaything to him to keep him entertained, or perhaps he doesn't exist at all. Any of those answers wouldn't make a very good case for your God. But I've noticed that people who become Christs sheep rarely see the negative, they have accepted that they are nothing and have no desire to keep an open mind. But at least you have a truth in your life, o however cannot accept that

First of all, pagan or not, people can have a joy-filled life - Proverbs 15:13 A; Proverbs 17:22; Galatians 5:22-23
' Comfort ' because we are forgiven, and the door is still open to possibly live forever which means ' everlasting joy in perfect health ' under Christ's coming 1,000 year rule over earth.
If we do Not repent we will perish - be destroyed ( annihilated ) - Psalms 92:7; Proverbs 6:16-19
We are Not forgiven to continue to do wrong, or practice wrongdoing - Hebrews 10:26

Why do you keep saying God knew we were going to fail ? There is No Scripture teaching that.
Adam's leanings were upright until Adam choose otherwise. Because of Adam, however, our leanings are toward wrongdoing, and through Christ our leanings can become upright.
God is Not an ' Indian giver ', so to speak, because God did Not take back his gift of free-will choices from us. Adam had free will and so do we.
Who is saying God is All powerful ? Scripture says there are things God can Not do. God can Not lie - Titus 1:2 - and God can Not die.

Satan challenged God's justice. God ( who does Not lie ) told Adam you eat, you die. Adam ate, Adam died. God did Not go back on His Law.
' Tilt the scales ', then Satan could have kept the challenge going. A tilted balancing scale is Not right according to Proverbs 11:1; Proverbs 20:23

Where does Scripture teach Jesus' sheep are nothing? Aren't his ' sheep ' precious in his eyes ?
An inquiring mind wants to know. If one places what they are taught against Scripture and find what they were taught does Not line up with Scripture, then Scripture wins out.
The mind should be like an open parachute when it's working. However, some people's minds are so far wide open that their brains could fall out.
Jesus believed Scripture is ' religious truth ' - John 17:17 - so Jesus was Not just talking about truth in general, but that Scripture is God's truth - John 4:23-24
We are all free moral agents, and No one is forced to accept Scripture as religious truth, otherwise we would be robots or automatons which we are Not.

Forgemaster · Jan 2, 2016

URAVIP2ME said:
First of all, pagan or not, people can have a joy-filled life - Proverbs 15:13 A; Proverbs 17:22; Galatians 5:22-23
' Comfort ' because we are forgiven, and the door is still open to possibly live forever which means ' everlasting joy in perfect health ' under Christ's coming 1,000 year rule over earth.
If we do Not repent we will perish - be destroyed ( annihilated ) - Psalms 92:7; Proverbs 6:16-19
We are Not forgiven to continue to do wrong, or practice wrongdoing - Hebrews 10:26

Why do you keep saying God knew we were going to fail ? There is No Scripture teaching that.
Adam's leanings were upright until Adam choose otherwise. Because of Adam, however, our leanings are toward wrongdoing, and through Christ our leanings can become upright.
God is Not an ' Indian giver ', so to speak, because God did Not take back his gift of free-will choices from us. Adam had free will and so do we.
Who is saying God is All powerful ? Scripture says there are things God can Not do. God can Not lie - Titus 1:2 - and God can Not die.

Satan challenged God's justice. God ( who does Not lie ) told Adam you eat, you die. Adam ate, Adam died. God did Not go back on His Law.
' Tilt the scales ', then Satan could have kept the challenge going. A tilted balancing scale is Not right according to Proverbs 11:1; Proverbs 20:23

Where does Scripture teach Jesus' sheep are nothing? Aren't his ' sheep ' precious in his eyes ?
An inquiring mind wants to know. If one places what they are taught against Scripture and find what they were taught does Not line up with Scripture, then Scripture wins out.
The mind should be like an open parachute when it's working. However, some people's minds are so far wide open that their brains could fall out.
Jesus believed Scripture is ' religious truth ' - John 17:17 - so Jesus was Not just talking about truth in general, but that Scripture is God's truth - John 4:23-24
We are all free moral agents, and No one is forced to accept Scripture as religious truth, otherwise we would be robots or automatons which we are Not.

Ok so you freely admit your God is not all powerful, I'm ok with that, but I'm saying your God knew we were to fail because the bible says nothing surprises him, so he obviously had to know we were to fail despite his warning, so back to my points, either he doesn't know the future and is surprised by everything that happened, meaning the bible lied, or God uses us as a plaything, or he simply doesn't exist. The scriptures are only valid to Christians, so to you they are the words of your God, but to everyone else they are just a book that could have changed a thousand times in the many years it's been around and translated. I don't mean to sound hostile but you're not answering my key questions. If God knew we were going to fail, as the bible says he would have known, why did he bother at all? And if he makes up the rules for good and evil couldn't he just forgive people on a case by case basis without having to kill himself (which suicide is a sin in the eyes of Christianity so that would be another thing to discuss)

URAVIP2ME · Jan 3, 2016

Forgemaster said:
Ok so you freely admit your God is not all powerful, I'm ok with that, but I'm saying your God knew we were to fail because the bible says nothing surprises him, so he obviously had to know we were to fail despite his warning, so back to my points, either he doesn't know the future and is surprised by everything that happened, meaning the bible lied, or God uses us as a plaything, or he simply doesn't exist. The scriptures are only valid to Christians, so to you they are the words of your God, but to everyone else they are just a book that could have changed a thousand times in the many years it's been around and translated. I don't mean to sound hostile but you're not answering my key questions. If God knew we were going to fail, as the bible says he would have known, why did he bother at all? And if he makes up the rules for good and evil couldn't he just forgive people on a case by case basis without having to kill himself (which suicide is a sin in the eyes of Christianity so that would be another thing to discuss)

Please post the verse which says: Nothing surprises God__________________ Where does the Bible say God knew Adam and Eve would fail ?

The ancient manuscripts are Not changed. They are always the same. Any translation can be compared with the ancient manuscripts.

God can Not die - Psalm 90:2 - so why do you keep saying God killed himself ? What Scripture says God killed himself ?

Ingledsva · Jan 3, 2016

URAVIP2ME said:
Please post the verse which says: Nothing surprises God__________________ Where does the Bible say God knew Adam and Eve would fail ?

The ancient manuscripts are Not changed. They are always the same. Any translation can be compared with the ancient manuscripts.

God can Not die - Psalm 90:2 - so why do you keep saying God killed himself ? What Scripture says God killed himself ?

Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).

“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

As for "God can not die." You folks claim Jesus is God in trinity form. Since God can't die (and I might add Jesus in the story rises) then no sacrifice took place for your sins.

*

URAVIP2ME · Jan 3, 2016

Ingledsva said:
Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).
“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).
“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).
As for "God can not die." You folks claim Jesus is God in trinity form. Since God can't die (and I might add Jesus in the story rises) then no sacrifice took place for your sins.
*

Jesus rises because the living God resurrected the dead un-living Jesus - Acts of the Apostles 2:31-32; Acts of the Apostles 3:15; Colossians 2:12

Yes, God knows ( can read our hearts ) but that does Not mean He knows the final outcome as to whether we repent or not. The open-choice change is ours to make - 2 Peter 3:9
Yes, our DNA is like a blueprint in a book, our frame, our substance, down in writing - Psalms 139:14-16. I don't see the word 'ordained' in those verses.(KJV)
Yes, God does know the happy ending - Isaiah 46:9-11; Isaiah 46:12-13; Habakkuk 2:3 - but as to who will be part of that happy millennial time is unknown.
Just as we can't count the grains of sand at the seashore it remains an unknown number - Revelation 20:8; Jeremiah 33:22 - because repenting is in our hands - 2 Peter 3:9
Revelation 22:2 is like history written in advance for us, or ' what is still to come '.

P.S. The Torah has written at Psalm 139:13-16 For You have created my mind; You have covered me in my mother's womb. I acknowledge You, for I am awesomely, wonderfully fashioned; wondrous are Your works, and my soul knows it will. My frame was not hidden from You; that which I was made in concealment, which I was knit together in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my unshaped form, and in Your book all were recorded; though they will be fashioned through many days, to Him they are one.

Forgemaster · Jan 3, 2016

Thank you Ingledsva

I couldn't have said it better myself

Forgemaster · Jan 3, 2016

And she also makes the point that Jesus is part of the trinity, so he is your god's son as well as God himself (because logic) and therefore by dying God killed himself, but it could also be murder as Jesus was in the garden praying to God, begging him to spare his life so it appears he wasn't as willing as he's made out to be

Ingledsva · Jan 4, 2016

URAVIP2ME said:
1. - Jesus rises because the living God resurrected the dead un-living Jesus - Acts of the Apostles 2:31-32; Acts of the Apostles 3:15; Colossians 2:12

2. - Yes, God knows ( can read our hearts ) but that does Not mean He knows the final outcome as to whether we repent or not. The open-choice change is ours to make - 2 Peter 3:9
Yes, our DNA is like a blueprint in a book, our frame, our substance, down in writing - Psalms 139:14-16. I don't see the word 'ordained' in those verses.(KJV)
Yes, God does know the happy ending - Isaiah 46:9-11; Isaiah 46:12-13; Habakkuk 2:3 - but as to who will be part of that happy millennial time is unknown.
Just as we can't count the grains of sand at the seashore it remains an unknown number - Revelation 20:8; Jeremiah 33:22 - because repenting is in our hands - 2 Peter 3:9
Revelation 22:2 is like history written in advance for us, or ' what is still to come '.

P.S. The Torah has written at Psalm 139:13-16 For You have created my mind; You have covered me in my mother's womb. I acknowledge You, for I am awesomely, wonderfully fashioned; wondrous are Your works, and my soul knows it will. My frame was not hidden from You; that which I was made in concealment, which I was knit together in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my unshaped form, and in Your book all were recorded; though they will be fashioned through many days, to Him they are one.

1. - Then he obviously wasn't God in any form.

2. - Both Tanakh and NT say God ordains, and knows, everything. And that is what the Christian Churches teach. Having a choice - doesn't mean a God wouldn't know the outcome.

Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

*

Muffled · Jan 5, 2016

URAVIP2ME said:
Any thoughts about Ecclesiastes 7:1 B ?

What did Jesus say we should ' remember ' at Luke 22:19 ? _______________

I don't believe obfuscation and evasion equates with wisdom.

Muffled · Jan 5, 2016

Forgemaster said:
And she also makes the point that Jesus is part of the trinity, so he is your god's son as well as God himself (because logic) and therefore by dying God killed himself, but it could also be murder as Jesus was in the garden praying to God, begging him to spare his life so it appears he wasn't as willing as he's made out to be

The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. The good news is that Jesus overcame the body (the world) and went to the cross.

Forgemaster · Jan 5, 2016

Muffled said:
The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. The good news is that Jesus overcame the body (the world) and went to the cross.

So it was suicide is what you're saying? Which is a sin in the eyes of the church. He knew why he was there and went forth, that is willingly killing himself, which is wrong to Christians

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