Should Christians celebrate Christmas

djhwoodwerks said:

Yes, and tell us all, with a straight face that most religions aren't the same way!

Click to expand...

Didn't Jesus expose the religious leaders in Matthew chapter 23 pronouncing many ' woes ' upon them along with his reasons why.
When Jesus said MANY would prove false - Matthew 7:21-23 - that would show most religions are ' in name only ' running afoul proving false to God and His Word.

URAVIP2ME said:

Didn't Jesus expose the religious leaders in Matthew chapter 23 pronouncing many ' woes ' upon them along with his reasons why.
When Jesus said MANY would prove false - Matthew 7:21-23 - that would show most religions are ' in name only ' running afoul proving false to God and His Word.

Click to expand...

Yes, Jesus did expose the religious leaders, and that MANY, He would not know. But I don't believe that it is any certain religion as a whole. When Jesus exposed the leaders of His time, it was the individuals them selves, not the religion. Because Jesus told the crowed;

Mat 23:1-3 (ESVST) 1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses 'seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

URAVIP2ME said:

But didn't they also sacrifice their children to their gods ? - Jeremiah 32:35; 2 Chronicles 28:3; Deuteronomy 12:31 - so how does giving to the poor justify infanticide ?

Click to expand...

Oops, it somehow posted twice.

URAVIP2ME said:

But didn't they also sacrifice their children to their gods ? - Jeremiah 32:35; 2 Chronicles 28:3; Deuteronomy 12:31 - so how does giving to the poor justify infanticide ?

Click to expand...

Yes they did. Apparently YHVH made them do it.

EZEKIEL 20:25-26 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good and ordinances whereby they should not live; and I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they set apart all that openeth the womb (First Born), that I might destroy them, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord.

*
Exodus 22: 29 –Thou shalt not delay TO OFFER the FIRST of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: THE FIRSTBORN OF THY SONS SHALT THOU GIVE UNTO ME.
*

Leviticus 27: 28, 29 Notwithstanding NO devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the Lord of all that he hath, BOTH OF "MAN" and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed:
every devoted thing is most holy unto the Lord.

29 - None devoted, which shall be devoted of men shall be redeemed; BUT SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH.

*
Micah vi. 7: "Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?"

*

Num 8:16 For they are wholly given unto me from among the children of Israel; instead of such as open every womb, even instead of the firstborn of all the children of Israel, have I taken them unto me.

Num 8:17 For all the firstborn of the children of Israel are mine, both man and beast: on the day that I smote every firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for myself.

Num 8:18 And I have taken the Levites for all the firstborn of the children of Israel.

*
From Catholic Encyclopedia -

"The custom of causing one's children to pass through the fire seems to have been general in the Northern Kingdom [IV (II) Kings, xvii, 17; Ezech. xxiii, 37], and it gradually grew in the Southern, encouraged by the royal example of Achaz (IV Kings, xvi, 3) and Manasses [IV (II) Kings, xvi, 6] till it became prevalent in the time of the prophet Jeremias (Jerem. xxxii, 35), when King Josias suppressed the worship of Moloch and defiled Tophet [IV (II) Kings, xxiii, 13 (10)]. It is not improbable that this worship was revived under Joakim and continued until the Babylonian Captivity …"


*
“In the week's Torah portion, G-d says about the Mishkan( Tabernacle) "V'neekdash Bichvodi", I will be made holy in my honor (loosely translated). The Talmud says to read it that "I will be made holy through my honored ones" referring to Aaron's 2 son's who were killed. Their death was part of the dedication of the Mishkan…”
http://www.torah.org/linkedlists/torah-forum/fu/0343.html

Jewish Ritual Murder, a Historical Investigation, Hellmut Schramm, Ph.D

THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION OF THE BELOVED SON
The Transformation of Child Sacrifice in Judaism and Christianity - Jon D. Levenson, Albert A. List Professor of Jewish Studies at the Divinity School and the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations, Harvard University

"Tracing from Canaanite to Christian thought the humiliations, deaths, and exaltations of sons and heirs, Levenson intrigues, astounds, and undermines many dearly held theological beliefs. This tour de force offers fascinating discussions of such matters as child sacrifice and the deity's right to the first-born; the paschal sacrifice and other Israelite rituals as symbolic substitutes for the son and heir."--A. J. Levine,

*

Ingledsva said:

Yes they did. Apparently YHVH made them do it.
EZEKIEL 20:25-26 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good and ordinances whereby they should not live; and I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they set apart all that openeth the womb (First Born), that I might destroy them, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord.
Exodus 22: 29 –Thou shalt not delay TO OFFER the FIRST of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: THE FIRSTBORN OF THY SONS SHALT THOU GIVE UNTO ME.
Leviticus 27: 28, 29 Notwithstanding NO devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the Lord of all that he hath, BOTH OF "MAN" and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed:
every devoted thing is most holy unto the Lord.
29 - None devoted, which shall be devoted of men shall be redeemed; BUT SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH.
Micah vi. 7: "Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?"
Num 8:16 For they are wholly given unto me from among the children of Israel; instead of such as open every womb, even instead of the firstborn of all the children of Israel, have I taken them unto me.
Num 8:17 For all the firstborn of the children of Israel are mine, both man and beast: on the day that I smote every firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for myself.
Num 8:18 And I have taken the Levites for all the firstborn of the children of Israel.
From Catholic Encyclopedia -
"The custom of causing one's children to pass through the fire seems to have been general in the Northern Kingdom [IV (II) Kings, xvii, 17; Ezech. xxiii, 37], and it gradually grew in the Southern, encouraged by the royal example of Achaz (IV Kings, xvi, 3) and Manasses [IV (II) Kings, xvi, 6] till it became prevalent in the time of the prophet Jeremias (Jerem. xxxii, 35), when King Josias suppressed the worship of Moloch and defiled Tophet [IV (II) Kings, xxiii, 13 (10)]. It is not improbable that this worship was revived under Joakim and continued until the Babylonian Captivity …"
“In the week's Torah portion, G-d says about the Mishkan( Tabernacle) "V'neekdash Bichvodi", I will be made holy in my honor (loosely translated). The Talmud says to read it that "I will be made holy through my honored ones" referring to Aaron's 2 son's who were killed. Their death was part of the dedication of the Mishkan…”
http://www.torah.org/linkedlists/torah-forum/fu/0343.html
Jewish Ritual Murder, a Historical Investigation, Hellmut Schramm, Ph.D
THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION OF THE BELOVED SON
The Transformation of Child Sacrifice in Judaism and Christianity - Jon D. Levenson, Albert A. List Professor of Jewish Studies at the Divinity School and the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations, Harvard University
"Tracing from Canaanite to Christian thought the humiliations, deaths, and exaltations of sons and heirs, Levenson intrigues, astounds, and undermines many dearly held theological beliefs. This tour de force offers fascinating discussions of such matters as child sacrifice and the deity's right to the first-born; the paschal sacrifice and other Israelite rituals as symbolic substitutes for the son and heir."--A. J. Levine,
*

Click to expand...

" Ritual Murder " ? where did they get the idea of ritual murder.
Ezekiel chapter 20 is a history of Israel's ( Not God's ) rebellion. They polluted ' themselves ' -> Ezekiel 20:31-33

Israel's first born sons were given in service to God as Levites to serve at the temple. -> Numbers 8:14-16; Numbers 8:17-19 .
They were Not set on fire but a sacrifical life. The Levites were chosen to preserve Scripture.

Leviticus 27:28-30 is talking about what a 'man' devotes to God in verse 28
At Leviticus 27:29 is talking about a condemned person ( capital punishment ) can Not be redeemed but executed.

The answer to Micah 6:7 is found at Micah 6:8. One's course of life, his ways, glorify God - Psalm 50:23 - Not burning people in sacrifice - Jeremiah 32:33-35

Was it God, or was it was the ' fallen-away Israelites ' who disobeyed God did such horrific things. - 2 Chronicles 28:1-3

URAVIP2ME said:

" Ritual Murder " ? where did they get the idea of ritual murder.
Ezekiel chapter 20 is a history of Israel's ( Not God's ) rebellion. They polluted ' themselves ' -> Ezekiel 20:31-33

Israel's first born sons were given in service to God as Levites to serve at the temple. -> Numbers 8:14-16; Numbers 8:17-19 .
They were Not set on fire but a sacrifical life. The Levites were chosen to preserve Scripture.

Leviticus 27:28-30 is talking about what a 'man' devotes to God in verse 28
At Leviticus 27:29 is talking about a condemned person ( capital punishment ) can Not be redeemed but executed.

The answer to Micah 6:7 is found at Micah 6:8. One's course of life, his ways, glorify God - Psalm 50:23 - Not burning people in sacrifice - Jeremiah 32:33-35

Was it God, or was it was the ' fallen-away Israelites ' who disobeyed God did such horrific things. - 2 Chronicles 28:1-3

Click to expand...

You are just plain wrong. We have a lot of info on this subject - which is why I included Christian articles, Jewish teachings, and books on the subject - as well as the actual verses.

Leviticus 27:29 is NOT talking about criminals.

How you think you can turn someone DEVOTED - a sacrifice - into a criminal - is beyond me.

Leviticus 27: 28, 29 Notwithstanding NO devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the Lord of all that he hath, BOTH OF "MAN" and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed:
every devoted thing is most holy unto the Lord.

29 - None devoted, which shall be devoted of men shall be redeemed; BUT SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH.

*

You appear to have misread Numbers. It specifically says the Levites are now taken INSTEAD of the FIRSTBORN of Israel.

Num 8:16 For they are wholly given unto me from among the children of Israel; instead of such as open every womb, even instead of the firstborn of all the children of Israel, have I taken them unto me.

Num 8:17 For all the firstborn of the children of Israel are mine, both man and beast: on the day that I smote every firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for myself.

Num 8:18 And I have taken the Levites for ( tachath - instead of) all the firstborn of the children of Israel.

Tachath is also used as "instead of" in the Abraham and Isaac story - where the ram is provided INSTEAD OF the son sacrifice.

*
It is VERY obvious that they sacrificed the firstborn.

The Bible itself - aside from these obvious verses - tells us they sacrificed their firstborn over and over.

11:30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord,…….11:31 Then it shall be , that WHOMSOEVER cometh out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be THE LORD’S, and I will OFFER IT UP FOR A BURNT OFFERING. 32-33.

He wasn't going to offer an animal - but a human sacrifice.

Isaac isn't surprised to be told by God to sacrifice his son.

Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

*

NathanShepard8888 said:

Even though it is a pagan holiday and comes from pagan origins?

Click to expand...

I believe Christmas is a Christian holy season. I think someone who thinks it is pagan is making a false accusation against Christianity.

Thana said:

Christians should do whatever they want.
But most are wise enough to understand that Christmas is more a cultural thing than it is anything else and so they enjoy it as such.

Click to expand...

I believe it was Ecclesiastes that said there was a season for everything. So I can enjoy the holy aspects of Christmas and the cultural and pagan aspects as well. I don't believe one needs to avoid paganism as though it were a plague.

Forgemaster said:

Regardless, my history on that is rusty I'll admit, but the fact remains Jesus want born in December, and as far as I know the bible never states YOUR god is the only one, only commands that we are not to worship any other gods, such as mine, and as an ex Christian I must say that your god is just a petty child who wants all the attention but only wants servants and sheep

Click to expand...

I don't know what you base this upon but it appears to be false to me.

I believe God wants servants and sheep. I truly believe He does not want wolves and rebels.

Muffled said:

I believe Christmas is a Christian holy season. I think someone who thinks it is pagan is making a false accusation against Christianity.

Click to expand...

In the first century the season included the Saturnalia. Today we have a mixture of the Saturnalia mixed with an incorrect Jesus story. More like the season of Christ-nalia.

Furthermore, there is no Bible record of Jesus asking us to celebrate his birth, but he does command us to commemorate his death and the date is recorded so we can at the proper time.

Muffled said:

I don't know what you base this upon but it appears to be false to me.

I believe God wants servants and sheep. I truly believe He does not want wolves and rebels.

Click to expand...

Well you are a Christian so of course it appears to be false to you, and it's hard to love someone that tells you you're a failure and expects you to live on your knees.

starlite said:

Furthermore, there is no Bible record of Jesus asking us to celebrate his birth, but he does command us to commemorate his death and the date is recorded so we can at the proper time.

Click to expand...

Technically it celebrates his sacrificing himself IN PLACE OF OTHERS, - which is why he says to do this at the Pesach meal.

The death of the Egyptian First Born, - replaces the sacrifice of the Hebrew First Born.

We now get a Priesthood, instead of sacrificed Hebrew Firstborn.

Jesus supposedly sacrifices himself "in place of" humans.

Num 3:12 And I, behold, I have taken the Levites from among the children of Israel instead of all the firstborn that openeth the matrix among the children of Israel: therefore the Levites shall be mine;

Num 3:13 Because all the firstborn are mine; for on the day that I smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt I hallowed/made clean unto me all the firstborn in Israel, both man and beast: mine shall they be: I am the LORD.

*
Num 8:13 And thou shalt set the Levites before Aaron, and before his sons, and offer them for an offering unto the LORD.

Num 8:14 Thus shalt thou separate the Levites from among the children of Israel: and the Levites shall be mine.

Num 8:15 And after that shall the Levites go in to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation: and thou shalt cleanse them, and offer them for an offering.

Num 8:16 For they are wholly given unto me from among the children of Israel; instead of such as open every womb, even instead of the firstborn of all the children of Israel, have I taken them unto me.

Num 8:17 For all the firstborn of the children of Israel are mine, both man and beast: on the day that I smote every firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for myself.

Num 8:18 And I have taken the Levites for all the firstborn of the children of Israel.

Num 8:19 And I have given the Levites as a gift to Aaron and to his sons from among the children of Israel, to do the service of the children of Israel in the tabernacle of the congregation, and to make an atonement for the children of Israel: that there be no plague among the children of Israel, when the children of Israel come nigh unto the sanctuary.

*

URAVIP2ME said:

In the first century the season included the Saturnalia. Today we have a mixture of the Saturnalia mixed with an incorrect Jesus story. More like the season of Christ-nalia.

Click to expand...

So you can throw the Christ out with the nalia? I believe then you have a season without Christ.

starlite said:

Furthermore, there is no Bible record of Jesus asking us to celebrate his birth, but he does command us to commemorate his death and the date is recorded so we can at the proper time.

Click to expand...

I believe He came into the world for that reason so the birth is as important as the death since the two are tied together.

Forgemaster said:

Well you are a Christian so of course it appears to be false to you, and it's hard to love someone that tells you you're a failure and expects you to live on your knees.

Click to expand...

I believe God never told me once that I was a failure. I believe I prefer living on my knees to living with my head up my behind kissing it goodbye.

Muffled said:

So you can throw the Christ out with the nalia? I believe then you have a season without Christ.

Click to expand...

I don't understand why Christians believe this way.

The virgin birth story isn't true - it was taken from Isaiah, However, no virgin birth, - does not alter what Jesus stands for, or said, etc.

In other words, there is no need of the fake added on stuff, virgin births, people crawling out of graves , etc.

He was a Jew. He said he was the Messiah. The rising is from SHEOL, not a tomb.

The fantastical later stories don't have to be believed by Christians, - for them to still be called Christians, - and worship Iesous/Jesus the Messiah.

*

Ingledsva said:

I don't understand why Christians believe this way.

The virgin birth story isn't true - it was taken from Isaiah, However, no virgin birth, - does not alter what Jesus stands for, or said, etc.

In other words, there is no need of the fake added on stuff, virgin births, people crawling out of graves , etc.

He was a Jew. He said he was the Messiah. The rising is from SHEOL, not a tomb.

The fantastical later stories don't have to be believed by Christians, - for them to still be called Christians, - and worship Iesous/Jesus the Messiah.

*

Click to expand...

I believe your beliefs are unsubstantiated. I believe a virgin birth serves as a sign from God that the child is not an ordinary child but God with us, so it is a confirmation of what Jesus says about Himself since anyone can say that but not everyone can be born that way.

Muffled said:

I believe He came into the world for that reason so the birth is as important as the death since the two are tied together.

Click to expand...

Any thoughts about Ecclesiastes 7:1 B ?

What did Jesus say we should ' remember ' at Luke 22:19 ? _______________

djhwoodwerks said:

Yes, Jesus did expose the religious leaders, and that MANY, He would not know. But I don't believe that it is any certain religion as a whole. When Jesus exposed the leaders of His time, it was the individuals them selves, not the religion. Because Jesus told the crowed;
Mat 23:1-3 (ESVST) 1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses 'seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

Click to expand...

Matthew 23:1-3 is good advice because even today we can do and observe what is in Scripture, but if preachers do Not do as Scripture says, then we should Not do as they do.

Religion as a whole, mankind's religious family tree, can be traced back to it's roots in ancient Babylon. As the people migrated out of Babylon they took with them their religious-myth practices and ideas and spread them world wide into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great. That is why we see so many similar or overlapping religious-myth ideas and practices spread throughout the religious world that is out of harmony with Scripture, but in harmony with ancient Babylonian traits. Even astrology traces back to ancient Babylon.