Giovanni20
New Member
The Cathlic church marrying gay couples?! That defenitely isnt the religion for me. Even if they do everything else right, that is COMPLETE and DIRECT Disobedience. Its crazy what the world is coming to.
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Homosexuality and the Church
- Thread starter Pah
- Start date
pdoel
Active Member
Giovanni20 said:
What about the Catholic Church marrying couples who were married before? Isn't that adultery? Isn't that a crazy disobedience from God's word as well?
What about the Catholic Church marrying couples who had pre-marital sex? Isn't that also against the laws of the Bible?
What about the Catholic Church allowing women to speak in Church? That's clearly against what is stated in the Bible.
What about the 500 million other sins discussed in the Bible that no longer apply to the Catholic Church (or any other Church)?
Booko
Deviled Hen
Giovanni20 said:
If you're referring to Sodom and Gemorrah, you might consider studying that a bit more. By no means is it certain that God destroyed those cities because of homosexuality. The Jewish interpretation (and it is *their* story, after all) is that it was lack of hospitality, and homosexuality had nothing to do with it.
In the ancient world, it was not uncommon to demean outsiders by abusing them in this way. Odds are the perps in the stories were married and had wives and kids.
As for whether homosexual behaviour should be accepted in your church, that's not my business anyway.
pdoel said:
Why is the church marrying anyone anyhow? Where does it state that the church is to marry anyone?
pdoel said:
Ummmm.......First off........... are you saying that it is a sin for the church to marry someone or are you stating that you believe that it is a sin for the church to marry two people that was married before or are you saying that it is a sin for two people to be married that was married before? Now if one wanted to say that the church has added something to the law by taking it upon themselves to say that to be married you would have to let the church do it or it isn't valid.......... That would be a sin if it was found out that they indeed added something to the word of YAH because we are to neither add to nor take away from. Also, There is no sin for two people to marry that has been married before as long as it is a union between a man and a woman and that the divorces prior were as the righteous law of YAH states.
pdoel said:
Again......... what is a sin? Transgression of the law. What is a sin in your question? Where does it state that the catholic church has the right to marry anyone? If it had that right then where does it state that sex isn't also a marriage? Where does it state that it is law that we be married at all?
pdoel said:
Agreed...... but since when did the catholic church abide by the laws of YAH?
pdoel said:
Well........ really there are only about 450 laws all together, without repetition, and not 613 as some profess. Though I am sure some would debate this fact but I won't. As far as your statement as to who or what might be or not be where the law of YAH applies is really only to ones understandings and beliefs. You believe as most that the church and those that accept the churches view on things are not to keep the laws of YAH......... On the other hand I believe for a true believer in YAH and that of His Son Yahshua that we should obey all the laws that apply. The laws of sacrifice are not something I believe that we do any longer because of the sacrifice of Yahshua Ha Mashiach. The Temple laws are another list of laws that would be hard to follow when there is no Temple nor any of the laws pertaining to the priesthood without the Temple. That pretty much leaves only those laws pertaining to the way we should treat each other, but really that only pertains to those of the faith, and that of ourselves as well, and that of the ways we observe and fear YAH.
pdoel
Active Member
wmam said:
I think the point is quite clear. The original poster is sickened by the idea of the Church marrying a gay couple, and claims it is against everything their religion has taught them.
This same religion has taught that marriage is for life. This same religion has taught that divorce is a sin. This same religion has taught that if you were to divorce and remarry, in the eyes of God, that is adultery. This same religion has taught that premarital sex is a sin.
The Church looks the other way on all these "sins". So to take a stand against homosexaulity and feel the Church looking the other way on this "sin", but yet not care that it's done the same thing on thousands of other issues, seems a bit hypocritcal.
jeffrey
â Ãig Dogâ
What ever happened to the concept that God is love? Why must people hate others that do not feel the same?
Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he said, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? What do you read there?" He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live."
But wanting to justify himself, he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" Jesus replied, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell into the hands of robbers, who stripped him, beat him, and went away, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road; and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.
"But a Samaritan while traveling came near him; and when he saw him, he was moved with pity. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, having poured oil and wine on them. Then he put him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him....
"Which of these three, do you think, was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?" He said, "The one who showed him mercy." Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."
Luke 10:25-34; 36-37
For most who strive to be faithful Christians, it is shocking to define our calling to follow Jesus in terms of hating other people. We think of ourselves as people of faith who would never accept such a wrong-headed notion. But if we agree that Jesus would never tell us to hate certain kinds of people, why is there so much hatred directed against others in the name of Jesus Christ?
When we read Gospel passages. like this one from Luke, Jesus message is direct and uncomplicated: love God, love neighbor....Go do it.
Looking at the details in this passage can help us understand how Christianity and hatred get mixed up together. It provides us with clues about how to stay clear and focused on Gods calling to be loving.
Trying to control God
One clue is found in how Jesus tries to guide the lawyer who is questioning him. The lawyer seems to be a member of the faith community who is engaging in the custom of debating the law. He is testing Jesus. He tries to control Jesus by making Jesus answer to him.
After Jesus responds to this lawyer by letting him answer his own question, the lawyer seems more compelled to assert himself as the one in charge. He seeks to justify his views and regain control by testing Jesus with a follow-up question.
As we observe the lawyer struggling with Jesus, we gain insight into how we can be tempted to turn away from the path of loving behavior. In our struggles to control God, hatred can take root in our lives. Like the lawyers initial question about eternal life, our contest with God can be instigated by the desire to control our fate, to justify who we are, to prove something about ourselves. We want to feel important, and being important in our society is often defined as being superior to others. If we can control God by giving out Gods permission to hate certain people, we can feel important.
Fortunately, God cannot be controlled by any of us.
Separating love of God
In telling the parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus tries to guide the lawyer away from self-justifying tactics. He offers a concrete example of the loving behavior God requires of us.
In the parable, two religious leaders, who share the Jewish beliefs of Jesus and the lawyer, show disregard for the man who has been robbed and beaten. In contrast, the Samaritan shows kindness. The Samaritan is a member of a schismatic -- a group considered racially impure that holds heretical religious beliefs. Jesus audience would have been shocked by introduction of this character as the loving one.
The neglectful actions of the priest and the Levite were probably based on their dedication to God. They may have been observing religious rules that required them to avoid contact with what they thought could be a dead body.
But Jesus teaches his listeners that dedication to God is linked to ones love of neighbor. The parable illustrates the inseparability of loving God and loving neighbor.
Failing to maintain this connection fuels the hatred many contemporary Christians find themselves able to justify. Divorcing acts of love for God from relationships with people around us allows us to be prejudiced against certain groups of people. It allows us to mistreat or ignore our neighbors.
The parable of the Good Samaritan teaches us something quite different. It teaches us our love for God is diminished when we diminish others. We are diminished and we diminish others, and we foster hate, when we laugh at jokes about Jews, nod in agreement with statements about minorities getting everything or pass by on the other side pretending we are not involved.
Deciding who matters to God
When Jesus finished telling the parable, he redirected the lawyers question about who is my neighbor. He transformed the lawyers concern into a question about which traveler on the road acted as a neighbor to the wounded stranger. Jesus shifts the understanding of Gods commandment of love from the lawyers emphasis on deciding who matters to God to consideration of what actions matters to God.To decide God offers concern for some people and not others twists the tradition allowing some to assert a religious basis for hate. Rationalizing hatred this way claims that loving God means identifying those who have earned Gods favor.
For example, it allows us to speak for God by pointing at poor women who apply for public-assistance funds or at gay men and lesbians as those who are not on Gods list of good people. It allows us to disregard these people as neighbors to love in the way we love ourselves and our own.But Jesus teaches us that God is concerned with our attitudes and actions toward those who have been beaten up and beaten down, even when everybody else could care less if they are left for dead. Jesus makes a point of showing us that differences between our identity and that of our neighbors must not prevent us from loving them. Loving them as we love ourselves means treating them with generosity and kindness.
When the rationalizations and messages that tell us to feel good about ourselves by putting others down bombard us from politicians, talk-show hosts, websites, family members, even clergy and church friends, let us remember what God truly requires of us. It is not complicated. Jesus taught: Love God, Love neighbor....Go do it.
Here
Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he said, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? What do you read there?" He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live."
But wanting to justify himself, he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" Jesus replied, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell into the hands of robbers, who stripped him, beat him, and went away, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road; and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.
"But a Samaritan while traveling came near him; and when he saw him, he was moved with pity. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, having poured oil and wine on them. Then he put him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him....
"Which of these three, do you think, was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?" He said, "The one who showed him mercy." Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."
Luke 10:25-34; 36-37
For most who strive to be faithful Christians, it is shocking to define our calling to follow Jesus in terms of hating other people. We think of ourselves as people of faith who would never accept such a wrong-headed notion. But if we agree that Jesus would never tell us to hate certain kinds of people, why is there so much hatred directed against others in the name of Jesus Christ?
When we read Gospel passages. like this one from Luke, Jesus message is direct and uncomplicated: love God, love neighbor....Go do it.
Looking at the details in this passage can help us understand how Christianity and hatred get mixed up together. It provides us with clues about how to stay clear and focused on Gods calling to be loving.
Trying to control God
One clue is found in how Jesus tries to guide the lawyer who is questioning him. The lawyer seems to be a member of the faith community who is engaging in the custom of debating the law. He is testing Jesus. He tries to control Jesus by making Jesus answer to him.
After Jesus responds to this lawyer by letting him answer his own question, the lawyer seems more compelled to assert himself as the one in charge. He seeks to justify his views and regain control by testing Jesus with a follow-up question.
As we observe the lawyer struggling with Jesus, we gain insight into how we can be tempted to turn away from the path of loving behavior. In our struggles to control God, hatred can take root in our lives. Like the lawyers initial question about eternal life, our contest with God can be instigated by the desire to control our fate, to justify who we are, to prove something about ourselves. We want to feel important, and being important in our society is often defined as being superior to others. If we can control God by giving out Gods permission to hate certain people, we can feel important.
Fortunately, God cannot be controlled by any of us.
Separating love of God
In telling the parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus tries to guide the lawyer away from self-justifying tactics. He offers a concrete example of the loving behavior God requires of us.
In the parable, two religious leaders, who share the Jewish beliefs of Jesus and the lawyer, show disregard for the man who has been robbed and beaten. In contrast, the Samaritan shows kindness. The Samaritan is a member of a schismatic -- a group considered racially impure that holds heretical religious beliefs. Jesus audience would have been shocked by introduction of this character as the loving one.
The neglectful actions of the priest and the Levite were probably based on their dedication to God. They may have been observing religious rules that required them to avoid contact with what they thought could be a dead body.
But Jesus teaches his listeners that dedication to God is linked to ones love of neighbor. The parable illustrates the inseparability of loving God and loving neighbor.
Failing to maintain this connection fuels the hatred many contemporary Christians find themselves able to justify. Divorcing acts of love for God from relationships with people around us allows us to be prejudiced against certain groups of people. It allows us to mistreat or ignore our neighbors.
The parable of the Good Samaritan teaches us something quite different. It teaches us our love for God is diminished when we diminish others. We are diminished and we diminish others, and we foster hate, when we laugh at jokes about Jews, nod in agreement with statements about minorities getting everything or pass by on the other side pretending we are not involved.
Deciding who matters to God
When Jesus finished telling the parable, he redirected the lawyers question about who is my neighbor. He transformed the lawyers concern into a question about which traveler on the road acted as a neighbor to the wounded stranger. Jesus shifts the understanding of Gods commandment of love from the lawyers emphasis on deciding who matters to God to consideration of what actions matters to God.To decide God offers concern for some people and not others twists the tradition allowing some to assert a religious basis for hate. Rationalizing hatred this way claims that loving God means identifying those who have earned Gods favor.
For example, it allows us to speak for God by pointing at poor women who apply for public-assistance funds or at gay men and lesbians as those who are not on Gods list of good people. It allows us to disregard these people as neighbors to love in the way we love ourselves and our own.But Jesus teaches us that God is concerned with our attitudes and actions toward those who have been beaten up and beaten down, even when everybody else could care less if they are left for dead. Jesus makes a point of showing us that differences between our identity and that of our neighbors must not prevent us from loving them. Loving them as we love ourselves means treating them with generosity and kindness.
When the rationalizations and messages that tell us to feel good about ourselves by putting others down bombard us from politicians, talk-show hosts, websites, family members, even clergy and church friends, let us remember what God truly requires of us. It is not complicated. Jesus taught: Love God, Love neighbor....Go do it.
Here
pdoel said:
I guess the point wasn't clear enough for me........... I am still trying to figure out which church you and others are speaking of. If it is the catholic church then so be it. If not then we need a little more info. I feel as though that different churches, as in beliefs, have different outlooks as to this question of marriage. Not just to deal with homosexual marriage, but any and all marriages as well as the other laws. To blanket all of what is called christianity, if this was your intent and I am not saying that it was, with such statements as you have made doesn't make any sense to me what so ever. Its completely unfounded. Now being that said, I agree with your points as to those that would be a member of any so called church of whatever faith that looks the other way on some rules but uphold those that they see as fit to observe. Again though.............. that is their faith and belief whether you or I like it or not. We can all sit here and debate this and other topics until the cows come home but it isn't going to change anything. Human Beings have been this way since the beginning of time with their likes and dislikes, loves and hates. Take this thread for instance, it is promoting hatred. I know many will disagree but to me it does. Yes there are those that hate homosexuals and their actions. Some hate them for just who they are while others hate them solely for their actions. There are reasons from religious to social as well as governmental. But this thread is geared to attack those from a particular section that happens to fall under the religious aspect. Problem here, though, is that we just have a claim of hate under the title "church" without regard as to the "which church" question. It has in turn covered any and all to some. This is, to me, is a much broader brush of hatred that covers more than it should. It's kinda like the crusades where the crusaders went into Yerusalem and not only killed muslims but Hebrews as well as christians. they pretty much killed all that they saw breathing that didn't wear a red cross. I say this from what little knowledge that I have obtained on the subject but it makes sense to me this way. This thread, to me, has spread the hate on all of so called church because of what they do or don't do as respects to others beliefs. It would be nice to narrow the intent as to which church is to receive the heat for said argument. Unless of course those here are under the impression of "kill them all and let god sort them out".
Great post, Jeffery!
I'm old enough that I can remember growing up when the word "Christian" almost never was used to mean a self-righteous, hateful, bigoted person. Instead, it was a term of praise which meant, among many other good things, a person who had taken Jesus's teachings on love to heart and humbly expressed love for their "neighbors". That is, for anyone who came their way. In my small town, we all knew who the real Christians were, and it was even a source of community pride that they were among us. Folks like Michel remind me of that earlier definition of "Christian", but overall, things have sure changed, eh?
A while ago, one of the local papers ran a quote from James Dobson, something he said close the start of his ministry in the 1970's. It went more or less like this, "We're going to take the kid gloves off. We're going to show the world that Christians aren't little old ladies who love everyone and can be run over by everyone. We're going to show them Christians have a fist of iron." That's the best I can remember what he said, and I wish I'd saved the quote, but I didn't. It completely struck me at the time, though, how contemptuous he was of that old defininition of "Christian", and how thirsty he was to prove it wasn't true.
I think since the 1970's, folks like Dobson, Falwell, Robertson, and many, many others have done an excellent job foisting their view of what it means to be a Christian on Americans. But I think Christianity as a whole in America has suffered for it. Jesus's message of love has been replaced with the Ten Commandments and more emphasis on hellfire and heaven than love, and I'm not even sure Jesus himself would approve of that distortion. I've heard young people in Colorado Springs tell me that loving your neighbor means loving other Christians, and even then they don't mean everyone who professes to be Christian, but just the ones they deem to be true Christians. If that's the future of Christian love, then Christian love is becoming spiritually incestuous.
To me, the most vocal "Christian" leaders of today have made a strategic mistake. A religion based on an ideology of "showing the world it has an iron fist" is a religion that is deeply, profoundly spiritually bankrupt.
I'm old enough that I can remember growing up when the word "Christian" almost never was used to mean a self-righteous, hateful, bigoted person. Instead, it was a term of praise which meant, among many other good things, a person who had taken Jesus's teachings on love to heart and humbly expressed love for their "neighbors". That is, for anyone who came their way. In my small town, we all knew who the real Christians were, and it was even a source of community pride that they were among us. Folks like Michel remind me of that earlier definition of "Christian", but overall, things have sure changed, eh?
A while ago, one of the local papers ran a quote from James Dobson, something he said close the start of his ministry in the 1970's. It went more or less like this, "We're going to take the kid gloves off. We're going to show the world that Christians aren't little old ladies who love everyone and can be run over by everyone. We're going to show them Christians have a fist of iron." That's the best I can remember what he said, and I wish I'd saved the quote, but I didn't. It completely struck me at the time, though, how contemptuous he was of that old defininition of "Christian", and how thirsty he was to prove it wasn't true.
I think since the 1970's, folks like Dobson, Falwell, Robertson, and many, many others have done an excellent job foisting their view of what it means to be a Christian on Americans. But I think Christianity as a whole in America has suffered for it. Jesus's message of love has been replaced with the Ten Commandments and more emphasis on hellfire and heaven than love, and I'm not even sure Jesus himself would approve of that distortion. I've heard young people in Colorado Springs tell me that loving your neighbor means loving other Christians, and even then they don't mean everyone who professes to be Christian, but just the ones they deem to be true Christians. If that's the future of Christian love, then Christian love is becoming spiritually incestuous.
To me, the most vocal "Christian" leaders of today have made a strategic mistake. A religion based on an ideology of "showing the world it has an iron fist" is a religion that is deeply, profoundly spiritually bankrupt.
pdoel
Active Member
wmam said:
The original post that I responded to was referring to the Catholic Church. If you read through the post of mine that you quoted, and look at the post I quoted, you'll see the Catholic Church is what was being discussed.
As for the comment about Churches looking the other way on some issues but not others. Personally, I don't really see that as being hypocritical. My belief is that there are many laws in the Old Testament that no longer apply since Jesus died for our sins. I firmly believe that if we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, and do our best to do as he taught, that we will be saved. I believe that loving one another is what Jesus wanted, rather than judging one another. So I think that Churches that preach those teachings and don't judge, are following what Christ taught.
However, when people like to preach to others that they are sinners, and insist on harping on old testament law, yet, ignore the other laws in the old testament (such as divorce, adultery, pre-marital sex, etc.), I find that hypocritical. If you are going to preach sin based on the old testament, yet ignore most of the teachings of the old testament, well, you don't have much business preaching.
Exactly. It's funny though, that you say this. My belief is that while I'm gay, I'm also a Christian. I believe (as stated above) that I am a follower of Christ. I believe that I'm EXACTLY the person God wanted me to be. So why do so many people feel the need to tell me I'm an abomination, that I deserve to go to Hell, and that I have no right to marry my partner? If what you say above is true, then why is it not ok for me to believe what I believe?
SunMessenger
Catholic
To ask the government to be accepted may or may not be an issue. But to insist on complete acceptance in the Church is another matter. I don't even think heterosexual conversation about sex should be a Church Matter. Teaching people to get along and treat each other with compassion is the real issue. The Catholic Church is against abortion and believes sex is reserved for procreation. Well the anti abortion stance is understandable, to regulate ones private moments is another matter . It is up to the individual to decide these issues. If we use our conscience to guide our behaviors that should be enough . It is our conscience that is, or should be, the nerve center of our soul.
pdoel said:
Oh...... my bad. Thanks for helping me see my mistake. Though I am not a catholic and only know what I have been told or have acquired through my studies as to the beliefs of said "catholic church" I can only make statements as to my understandings of such. Problem here lies with my feelings of said church. Those feelings are not very good though it isn't feelings toward the members nor the practitioners of said church but rather the practice itself.
pdoel said:
Well I see and understand your mode of belief and I accept that it is what you accept as to your understanding. I do though disagree with that understanding and do so with the utmost respect without any intent of offense. My belief follows laws in the old covenant as it pertains to us today. Being that said, we do not observe all the laws that the jews observe as being all the law as they see it. We observe that there are laws from YAH the Father that was set aside because of the renewed covenant with the death and the shedding of the blood of Yahshua Ha Mashiach Ben Dawid. Also laws that cannot be observed at this time as there are no Temple nor Priesthood. We have a different understanding of belief. We believe that it is meant for us not to judge others but rather their actions but do so righteously. Righteously meaning which pertains to the laws of YAH. There is so much that it would take a book to explain all of the beliefs that we believe and I won't bore you unless you ask to learn with a pure heart.
pdoel said:
Well.......... Problem here lies with what yours as well as others view are on what is law and what isn't. Again there are jews that believe that there are 613 laws where there are others that believe that there are more or less. My assembly believes that there are only 450 total. Not really fair to say who might preach against one sin when you feel that there are so many that they do not preach against when in fact their beliefs may not hold that the laws you feel are being left out is of none effect. Though if they agree that these other laws hold as much water as the ones they preach against and believe that the punishment for sin is death and understand that whatever sin that they might commit and leave unanswered for might lead to death then we have a problem of doctrine. There is a boat load of bad doctrine to go around for everybody. Thats is my belief and understanding of which you may not agree with but I can accept that as I am sure you can. Again no intent of offense or belittling but only conveying my own beliefs and understandings.
pdoel said:
On the contrary......... It is completely o.k. with me for you to believe whatever you choose even if it is pink little fairies and unicorns but it isn't what my understanding is as being truth. Now for you to say that you are gay and also a christian to me is nothing more than the different types of christian beliefs. You have Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, etc. etc. etc. etc. The fact you believe the way you do and are also gay to me is just another off shoot of the same but with a twist as the others differ as well. I don't agree with it and I do think that if you are gay and practice such then your actions are an abomination unto YAH but that is my faith and belief. I don't hate you. To hate you would offend my Creator which also created you. I can only hate your actions. Now as far as you marrying one of your own gender........ I cannot support such because again that action would support the practice of being a homosexual which is an abomination unto YAH. For me to support that would be the same as me saying that it was o.k. and I cannot do that.
But hey............. That is just my beliefs and understandings. All in all YAH will make known His will when His Son comes back not as a Lamb, the second time, but that of a Lion.
Oh and by the way, my belief is that hell is the grave. All that die in the flesh will all go to hell. but it is a sleep until either the calling of Yahshua or judgment day. Remember that death and hell will be also thrown into that lake of fire. So when someone tells you to go to hell it is the same as telling you to go to the grave or die. Nice huh?
jeffrey said:
LOL ....... Is that you on your soap box or is it referring to me on mine? Really and truly, Jeffrey, I would have to say that which ever it was, both could use the soap to wash out our filthy mouths from the vile things that we have said about one's Brother.
Reality Check? ummmmmmm........ Who's reality? ......... Your's? ....... I am quite pleased with the one I have, thank you, but you are entitled to your own. Enjoy.
Pah
Uber all member
The American reality is that the "church" wishes to impose their dogma, their interpretation of biblical verse, their creed, thier theology on the rest of America.wmam said:... Reality Check? ummmmmmm........ Who's reality? ......... Your's? ....... I am quite pleased with the one I have, thank you, but you are entitled to your own. Enjoy.
jeffrey
â Ãig Dogâ
Have you ever heard the expression, "Look! Everyone's out of step but Johnny!"? Your entitled to your opinions, but there should come a time when you step back and think, "what is everybody else seeing about my posts that I'm not?" Christ is love. God is love. Not the hate which you seem to think he has.wmam said:LOL ....... Is that you on your soap box or is it referring to me on mine? Really and truly, Jeffrey, I would have to say that which ever it was, both could use the soap to wash out our filthy mouths from the vile things that we have said about one's Brother.
Reality Check? ummmmmmm........ Who's reality? ......... Your's? ....... I am quite pleased with the one I have, thank you, but you are entitled to your own. Enjoy.