Why no mention of a fiery Hell in the Old Testament?

Jayhawker Soule said:

Ignorant nonsense. See, for example, here. Unless you're willing to argue that the Synoptics were penned "centuries after Jesus' death" you're simply pontificating on things about which you appear to know very little.

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His answer is valid. Yours is bordering on ignorance. The church may not have created the idea, but certainly through poor translation and improper focus on one thing, they certainly magnified it.

Deist Mentor said:

6. The imagery of HELL as a place of hell, fire, brimstone, torment, torture, blah blah blah came about centuries later. The RCC was the big instigator behind this concept. It used fear and guilt trips to push its agenda. That same fear mongering and guilt tripping allowed it to maintain power and influence. "Take up this crusade in the name of God, and you may be forgiven for your sins!"

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they certainly pushed that part and made lots of money out of it..

Robert.Evans said:

Jayhawker Soule said:

Deist Mentor said:

The concept of hell was a creation by The Church centuries after Jesus' death, for the purposes of fear mongering.

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Ignorant nonsense. See, for example, here. Unless you're willing to argue that the Synoptics were penned "centuries after Jesus' death" you're simply pontificating on things about which you appear to know very little.

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His answer is valid. Yours is bordering on ignorance. The church may not have created the idea, but certainly through poor translation and improper focus on one thing, they certainly magnified it.

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Thoughtless nonsense. In fact, for you to assert that ...


is to reject his silly claim that

You apparently understood neither your comments nor mine.

Rise said:

It is equally implausible that the same core story could have traveled the globe, from the greatest empire to the most remote isolated tribes, and for some reason all of them decide to adopt this story and retell it as a historical fact of their own people's history.

Almost nothing else has that level of global agreement in all world cultures from great to small, aside from the concept of there being a God who created us.
This makes sense if you understand that we had a single origin point of divine knowledge that everyone took with them as they traveled around the globe. Details would be corrupted with time and distance, but there were certain core underlying concepts which make up the story that couldn't be lost without completely scrapping the entire traditions that was passed down to them.

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Yet ancient pyramids were built on opposite sides of the world, as well as massive stone monoliths. Those cultures did not have contact with each other...or did they?

Jayhawker Soule said:

Thoughtless nonsense. In fact, for you to assert that ...

The church may not have created the idea, but ...​

is to reject his silly claim that

The concept of hell was a creation by The Church centuries after Jesus' death ...
​

You apparently understood neither your comments nor mine.

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Read more carefully. The idea of Hell was not prevelant in the rise of Christ. It grew as the faith did and largely through the CC

Robert.Evans said:

Read more carefully. The idea of Hell was not prevelant in the rise of Christ. It grew as the faith did and largely through the CC

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To be sure, the idea of adding ' fire ' to hell was Not prevalent in the first century.
When KJV translated the word Gehenna into English as hellfire that helped promote everlasting burning.
Whereas Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed and Not kept burning forever.
So, KJV hellfire is really symbolic and stands for: destruction - Psalms 92:7; 2 Peter 3:9 ( repent or perish as in be destroyed )

In Scripture ' biblical hell ' is just the grave for the sleeping dead. - John 11:11-14
The old Hebrew Scriptures also teach sleep in death -> Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5
So, while in the Bible's hell the dead Jesus was in a sleep-like state until God resurrected the dead Jesus out of biblical hell.
- Acts of the Apostles 2:27; Acts of the Apostles 3:15
Jesus now has the keys to unlock biblical hell - Revelation 1:18
If biblical hell was a permanent place Jesus would still be there.
According to Revelation 20:13-14 the Bible's ' temporary hell '( grave ) comes to a final end in a symbolic ' second death '.
After everyone in hell is ' delivered up ' ( resurrected out of hell ), then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that ' second death ' for vacated hell.

David1967 said:

I was always curious why such a terrible place was not mentioned in the Old Testament.

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It did not exist in mythology at this time period.


It is a concept that evolved for a very very long time.

URAVIP2ME said:

To be sure, the idea of adding ' fire ' to hell was Not prevalent in the first century.
When KJV translated the word Gehenna into English as hellfire that helped promote everlasting burning.
Whereas Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed and Not kept burning forever.
So, KJV hellfire is really symbolic and stands for: destruction - Psalms 92:7; 2 Peter 3:9 ( repent or perish as in be destroyed )

In Scripture ' biblical hell ' is just the grave for the sleeping dead. - John 11:11-14
The old Hebrew Scriptures also teach sleep in death -> Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5
So, while in the Bible's hell the dead Jesus was in a sleep-like state until God resurrected the dead Jesus out of biblical hell.
- Acts of the Apostles 2:27; Acts of the Apostles 3:15
Jesus now has the keys to unlock biblical hell - Revelation 1:18
If biblical hell was a permanent place Jesus would still be there.
According to Revelation 20:13-14 the Bible's ' temporary hell '( grave ) comes to a final end in a symbolic ' second death '.
After everyone in hell is ' delivered up ' ( resurrected out of hell ), then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that ' second death ' for vacated hell.

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Yet it is still interesting that it mentions the valley of hinnom and fire and Paul mentions escaping through the flames and Revelation mentions the lake of fire and the book of Daniel mentions the furnace (that interestingly they were not hurt in as believers nor destroyed). ... so we have to ask why is it mentioned. Fire can destroy and purify. There must be a reason for it being written.

Robert.Evans said:

There must be a reason for it being written.

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Many of these authors were survivors of the eruption of Vesuvius.

http://jamestabor.com/2013/10/09/the-destruction-of-pompei-and-the-new-testament-book-of-revelation/

However, in the course of my own textual research I made another discovery–one that was new for me at least. I became convinced that chapter 18 of the New Testament book of Revelation is an eyewitness account, very much parallel to that of Pliny the Younger, of the August 79 CE destruction of Pompeii–but understood by the writer as signaling the fall of Babylon the Great–namely, the demise of the Roman Empire itself! Most scholars agree that the prophecies of the book of Revelation can be dated variously from the end of the reign of Nero through the Flavians (68-80s CE). The author of chapter 18 of Revelation provides us with a poetic oracle against the “great city” pictured as a “whore” riding the seven-headed beast of the Roman Empire–drunk with the blood of the martyrs and the saints. Her destruction comes with fire–in one hour–while those in ships watch her burning from afar, lamenting the loss of her wealth and the splendor of her trade and commerce. The Naples/Pompeii port was the gateway to ancient Rome. As such its destruction signaled that of the expected apocalyptic FALL of Rome itself–both as a city and an empire.

outhouse said:

Many of these authors were survivors of the eruption of Vesuvius.

http://jamestabor.com/2013/10/09/the-destruction-of-pompei-and-the-new-testament-book-of-revelation/

However, in the course of my own textual research I made another discovery–one that was new for me at least. I became convinced that chapter 18 of the New Testament book of Revelation is an eyewitness account, very much parallel to that of Pliny the Younger, of the August 79 CE destruction of Pompeii–but understood by the writer as signaling the fall of Babylon the Great–namely, the demise of the Roman Empire itself! Most scholars agree that the prophecies of the book of Revelation can be dated variously from the end of the reign of Nero through the Flavians (68-80s CE). The author of chapter 18 of Revelation provides us with a poetic oracle against the “great city” pictured as a “whore” riding the seven-headed beast of the Roman Empire–drunk with the blood of the martyrs and the saints. Her destruction comes with fire–in one hour–while those in ships watch her burning from afar, lamenting the loss of her wealth and the splendor of her trade and commerce. The Naples/Pompeii port was the gateway to ancient Rome. As such its destruction signaled that of the expected apocalyptic FALL of Rome itself–both as a city and an empire.

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Revelation can fit many ideas, but Rome was the one pointed at then, yes, and the beast was Nero. He was even said to be such by those close to him.

Mt Vesuvius - everyone will see me even those who pierced me, Romans.

Robert.Evans said:

Yet it is still interesting that it mentions the valley of hinnom and fire and Paul mentions escaping through the flames and Revelation mentions the lake of fire and the book of Daniel mentions the furnace (that interestingly they were not hurt in as believers nor destroyed). ... so we have to ask why is it mentioned. Fire can destroy and purify. There must be a reason for it being written.

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Fire does Not purify the wicked - it is either: repent or ' perish ' ( be destroyed ) 2 Peter 3:9

Please note the definition of the lake of fire as defined at Revelation 20:13-14
The definition of the lake is : second death
Satan ends up ( Not in hell ) but in ' second death ' Revelation 21:8
Jesus destroys Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B
So, ' second death ' is a fitting term for: destruction.
Aren't the wicked to be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
So, Gehenna is a fitting place to stand for destruction because everything in Gehenna was destroyed forever ( annihilated forever )

Robert.Evans said:

Revelation can fit many ideas, but Rome was the one pointed at then, yes, and the beast was Nero. He was even said to be such by those close to him.
Mt Vesuvius - everyone will see me even those who pierced me, Romans.

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It is interesting to note that Revelation was written for our day or time frame. - Revelation 1:10
What happened during the first century happened 'before' John wrote Revelation at the very end of the first century.
So, Revelation was future, and Revelation fits our present day or time frame.

URAVIP2ME said:

Fire does Not purify the wicked - it is either: repent or ' perish ' ( be destroyed ) 2 Peter 3:9

Please note the definition of the lake of fire as defined at Revelation 20:13-14
The definition of the lake is : second death
Satan ends up ( Not in hell ) but in ' second death ' Revelation 21:8
Jesus destroys Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B
So, ' second death ' is a fitting term for: destruction.
Aren't the wicked to be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
So, Gehenna is a fitting place to stand for destruction because everything in Gehenna was destroyed forever ( annihilated forever )

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Read this:
1Co 3:12-15 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- each one's work will become manifest, for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

It is the work that is burned up.
Even Acts tells us that there is a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous. Why, I might ask, if they are judged already?

And Timothy tells us that 'all mankind will be saved'.

The lake of fire is for aeons and not forever as there is no such word, nor in the OT.
I am not saying, however , that evil will not be burned up and destroyed, but I am asking what that actually means if there is still something left after it has. Even a forest fire when destroying still leaves room for the seeds to grow again. What is he showing us in that?

David1967 said:

As someone raised in a very Fundamentalist Christian denomination that preached more about Hell fire than Heaven, and more wrath of God than love and compassion of God, I was always curious why such a terrible place was not mentioned in the Old Testament.

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Hell is a Pharisaic concept dominated among the Jews at Jesus' time. The temple court is the place to make a Jewish writing legitimate. The temple court however is composed of both Pharisees and Sadducees and others. The Sadducees don't believe in hell as the Pharisees do. So any writings mentioning too much about hell will thus be rejected by the Sadducee members in the court. So books similar to the Book of Enoch will have no chance to be included in legitimate writings or part of the Canon.

Deist Mentor said:

Yet ancient pyramids were built on opposite sides of the world, as well as massive stone monoliths. Those cultures did not have contact with each other...or did they?

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No they did not have contact.

They built similar pyramid structures because that was the best these primitive engineers could do for buildings so large.

You had separate culture going big at the same time which was common due to these being some of the first large civilizations.

Pyramids are just the easiest MOST SIMPLY way to build large high buildings.

Many ancient civilizations were focused on the sky as their lives were connected to the stars and growing seasons, so its quite natural that more then one separated culture built UP.

Hawkins said:

Hell is a Pharisaic concept dominated among the Jews at Jesus' time

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I'm sorry but you need to provide sources for this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

Early Judaism had no concept of Hell, though the concept of an afterlife was introduced during the Hellenic period, apparently from neighboring Hellenistic religions.

outhouse said:

No they did not have contact.

They built similar pyramid structures because that was the best these primitive engineers could do for buildings so large.

You had separate culture going big at the same time which was common due to these being some of the first large civilizations.

Pyramids are just the easiest MOST SIMPLY way to build large high buildings.

Many ancient civilizations were focused on the sky as their lives were connected to the stars and growing seasons, so its quite natural that more then one separated culture built UP.

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I am a big history nut. I watch a lot of the shows in History, Discovery, etc. There are things that ancient man could not have done alone. There are stones that are so massive, so heavy, and so laser precise that modern man and technology would have difficulties replicating and moving them.

Deist Mentor said:

I am a big history nut. I watch a lot of the shows in History, Discovery, etc. There are things that ancient man could not have done alone. There are stones that are so massive, so heavy, and so laser precise that modern man and technology would have difficulties replicating and moving them.

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I have been to many of the places you speak including almost every site in Peru.

With that said, once your there and see how they split and quarried the stones, it takes most of the mystery out.


Here's the deal bud. Were talking about people that did nothing but work with stone for thousands of years. They were good at it due to practice.

Most all ancient people worked rather large stones. Its not the hard by yourself , as where there is will, there is a way. I can move a 20 ton rock 6-10' up in a day alone, providing I have plenty of flat wood cribbing, and long enough hard wood beams to use as levers.

Imagine what thousands of hard working people could do that were organized by "stone pro's"

The alien connection is a laughable excuse for history, based on lies and feeding those with less education, misinformation.

Robert.Evans said:

Read this:
1Co 3:12-15 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- each one's work will become manifest, for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
It is the work that is burned up.
Even Acts tells us that there is a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous. Why, I might ask, if they are judged already?
And Timothy tells us that 'all mankind will be saved'.
The lake of fire is for aeons and not forever as there is no such word, nor in the OT.
I am not saying, however , that evil will not be burned up and destroyed, but I am asking what that actually means if there is still something left after it has. Even a forest fire when destroying still leaves room for the seeds to grow again. What is he showing us in that?

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But the ashes from the forest fire can Not be pieced back together again to become that same living tree.
The wicked will be manure upon the face of the earth - Jeremiah 25:31-33
Manure is fertilizer ( not seeds ) leaving room for vegetation to grow again, but Not the exact same vegetation as before.
The definition of the lake of fire is : ' second death ' according to Revelation 20:13-14
Satan ends up in ' second death ' Revelation 21:8
Jesus destroys Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B
So, ' second death ' is a fitting term for: annihilation or being destroyed forever.

'ALL' mankind that is to be saved are those who are found faithful by the end of Jesus' 1,000 year governmental rule over earth.
Since the ' guilty will Not be cleared ', then there is No support for universal salvation - Exodus 34:7; Psalms 7:8-11

Who says the people of Acts of the Apostles 24:15 are already judged ?
Acts 24:15 does Not include the wicked.
Except for those of Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6, it is the righteous/unrighteous who will be resurrected - Romans 6:7
They have paid the price tag for their sins by dying - Romans 6:23 - thus they are entitled to a earthly resurrection.
Those of Acts 24:15 are to be judged on what they do AFTER they are resurrected during Jesus 1,000 year rulership over earth.
Most of mankind - John 3:13 - have lived and died without ever hearing of Jesus, so how could they have put faith in him ?
Jesus' ransom covers MANY - Matthew 20:28 - so the majority of mankind will be judged on what they do after they are resurrected.

1 Corinthians 2:12-15 starts at verses 10 and 11 that we are to watch on how we are building - 1 Corinthians 3:10-11
That is in connection to Jesus parable at Luke 6:47-49. - see also Matthew 7:24
Like many of Jesus' followers they have suffered loss ( rough trials as if going through fires ) but they were saved.
- Matthew 24:13 ; 1 Corinthians 3:8; If any man defiles the 'temple ' ( God's people ) God will ' destroy ' him - 1 Corinthians 3:17
ALL who will Not repent will ' perish ' ( be destroyed ) 2 Peter 3:9; Psalms 92:7

john landes said:

The ancient Israelites believed that heaven was where their god lived; it was not a destination for human beings. After death, human beings (both the good ones and the bad ones) went to a place called Sheol, which -- though vaguely defined -- is beneath the ground and the end of any meaningful existence. The god of the Old Testament could not reward or punish people after death; only during life. This is the reason the Ten Commandments (both the Exodus and Deuteronomy versions) include the notion of intergenerational sin (that the children and grandchildren will be punished for the sins of the parent). This morally repugnant idea would only be invented if the god in question did not have an afterlife of reward/punishment at his disposal. After the Babylonian Captivity which ended in 539 BCE, Judah was for 200 years a Persian client state and Jewish thinkers absorbed Zoroastrian ideas, including those of a bodily resurrection and a two-tiered afterlife. Jesus simply repeated these ideas. For a fuller account of all this, check out the amazing book, Seeing Through Christianity.

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Not inter-generational sin. For a fuller account see -> Deuteronomy 24:16; 2 Chronicles 25:4 B; Ezekiel 18:20 B.
Exodus 20:5 B was pointing out that a father's wrongdoing can cause grief for children, grandchildren and even great-grandchildren. We can see an example of that today when a mother is a drunk or a drug addict not only do her children suffer for her wrongdoing but so can grandchildren, etc. suffer. We see today the example generational welfare sometimes due to original wrongdoing but not necessarily the passing down of sins for the next generation(s).

There was No postmortem punishment for Adam.
Adam simply ' returned ' to the dust of the ground - Genesis 3:19
A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before.
Adam went from non-life, to life, and went back to non-life.
The wicked have No ' after life ', so to speak, because the wicked will be: destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7; 2 Peter 3:9