John the baptist... Why?

John was a Jew, he went around Baptising .... why?
Did other Jews Baptise....?

We Baptise today.... are we doing something different to John?

This is a mind clearing exercise..... Enjoy.

I believe that it has always been a Jewish ritual of washing oneself to symbolize spiritual cleanliness...The Essenes practiced it as did other Jewish sects. I also think that Jews had to wash up in a ceremonial bath before entering the Holy Temple in Jerusalem.

UnityNow101 said:

I believe that it has always been a Jewish ritual of washing oneself to symbolize spiritual cleanliness...The Essenes practiced it as did other Jewish sects. I also think that Jews had to wash up in a ceremonial bath before entering the Holy Temple in Jerusalem.

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I don't think a ceremonial wash is the same as baptism.

Isn't that what a baptism is?

Terrywoodenpic said:

I don't think a ceremonial wash is the same as baptism.

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I don't really see a difference. It's not a Christian baptism, sure, but then John wasn't Christian. Christ took existing practices (breaking bread, ceremonial bathing, annointing with oil, etc.) that were already existant within Judaism and turned them into the sacraments that are used by the Church. I can't think of a single one that wasn't the 'Christening' of prior Jewish practice, though, so why should baptism be different?

James

James the Persian said:

I don't really see a difference. It's not a Christian baptism, sure, but then John wasn't Christian. Christ took existing practices (breaking bread, ceremonial bathing, annointing with oil, etc.) that were already existant within Judaism and turned them into the sacraments that are used by the Church. I can't think of a single one that wasn't the 'Christening' of prior Jewish practice, though, so why should baptism be different?

James

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So what is the difference between what John the Baptist was doing and the Normal Jewish practice of the time? There seems to have been a difference for him to have been called the Baptist.

Terrywoodenpic said:

So what is the difference between what John the Baptist was doing and the Normal Jewish practice of the time? There seems to have been a difference for him to have been called the Baptist.

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I'm not certain, but I believe that he was encouraging all people to be baptised in preparation for the Messiah, urging all to repentance through baptism, and that aspect was rather unique to him.

I'd note that in our tradition, it doesn't sound like he is 'the only' baptist as it might sound in English. Usually we call him St. John the Forerunner. Also he did baptise people as part of his preparation for the Messiah, not to mention that he actually baptised Christ. When I look at it in an Orthodox context, it seems like we aren't saying St. John the only/first Baptist as can easily by assumed in English but rather that St. John who Baptised (because we have oh so many saints John). Not sure how much sense that will make to anyone else, though.

James

Terrywoodenpic said:

John was a Jew, he went around Baptising .... why?
Did other Jews Baptise....?

We Baptise today.... are we doing something different to John?

This is a mind clearing exercise..... Enjoy.

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From what I understand, baptism was widely practiced by Jews in the first century. John's baptism was a sign of repentance, Christian baptism is an initiation rite into the cult in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The tevilah, the ceremonial washing in a basin called a mikvah (the practice itself is also commonly called mikvah) was ordinarily performed for new converts to Judaism, to cleanse women of their sexuality after menstruation and childbirth, for various occassions requiring ritual purity, and prior to entering the Temple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikvah

was ordinarily performed for new converts to Judaism

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I thought I remembered hearing that somewhere

Hard to say. I haven't read a Talmud, so I don't know what the ceremonial washings are for previous, however... From what I have heard and from what little I have read, the fact that he is baptizing means he is starting a group out there in the desert, possibly this is an allusion to the school of prophets that the prophet Elijah has (about a thousand years ahead of John). As to what Elijah's school does I'm not sure about that either. Perhaps they picket and complain and object to the leadership. Is Elijah manufacturing prophets? If so, then perhaps John B. (or John the Forerunner) is doing something akin to it. For some reason he is attracting a lot of followers and preaching against various objectionable practices. So perhaps it is not merely John B. that has the authorities riled up but the people he's baptizing. After all they are Jews, so if they get baptized by a prophet then its going to mean a major lifestyle change of some kind. Maybe all of John B.'s disciples are making trouble and agitating for change? If so then it seems like that is part of why his baptism is a big deal.

Terrywoodenpic said:

John was a Jew, he went around Baptising .... why?
Did other Jews Baptise....?

We Baptise today.... are we doing something different to John?

This is a mind clearing exercise..... Enjoy.

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"Mind clearing"..... You answered your question. This is what inward baptism is. Mind purification. Cleansing of the mind. A "Jew" is one inward. Baptism outwardly is, outward, and just gets one wet and nothing more. Water is a symbol of consciousness.

doppelganger said:

The tevilah, the ceremonial washing in a basin called a mikvah (the practice itself is also commonly called mikvah) was ordinarily performed for new converts to Judaism, to cleanse women of their sexuality after menstruation and childbirth, for various occassions requiring ritual purity, and prior to entering the Temple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikvah

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Outward baptism. Inward baptism would be the cleansing and purification of the woman(subconscious/mind) of separation and impurity after childbirth(a seed of knowledge born in ones mind). The temple is the mind, and must be whole(holy) and United between husband(conscious) and wife(subconscious).

Unification said:

Outward baptism. Inward baptism would be the cleansing and purification of the woman(subconscious/mind) of separation and impurity after childbirth(a seed of knowledge born in ones mind). The temple is the mind, and must be whole(holy) and United between husband(conscious) and wife(subconscious).

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John: baptism, repentance of mind, purification/cleansing.

Menstruation of the brain, from the pia mater(tender mother caressing her infant) of blood flow. Washed by the blood of "Christ."

Jesus: kingdom of heaven comes within, a one/restful/blissful/whole(holy) conscious mind arrives.

Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

The mikveh isn't ''baptism''. So, John was not performing the ''mikveh''. Keep in mind that ''Judaism'', rather common Rabbinic Judaism, was not extant at the time of Jesu, so, this baptism referenced in the NT, is before any ritualized organized ''judaism'', hence not really a comparison here. Obviously there were some different ideas in Israel, eg Essenes, Sadducees, Pharisees, /at least, hence, there is not much to compare the Xian baptism to..it is what it is.

The Xian baptism, /the water baptism/ was for sin cleansing, I believe; however, Jesus was not considered a baptizer, like John. Jesu's baptism is completely different, and is not so much symbolic, or merely the remission of sins, but rather for 'salvation' purposes, etc. The church basically adapted Johns baptism as its own, then they baptize ;;in the name of'', (they aren't actually saying that Jesu is de facto baptizing the person).

Sonic247 said:

I thought I remembered hearing that somewhere

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was ordinarily performed for new converts to Judaism

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Perhaps that is the only difference; that he was known to be baptizing new converts into a newer understanding of Hebrew religion, as taught by Jesus.

*

UnityNow101 said:

I believe that it has always been a Jewish ritual of washing oneself to symbolize spiritual cleanliness...The Essenes practiced it as did other Jewish sects. I also think that Jews had to wash up in a ceremonial bath before entering the Holy Temple in Jerusalem.

Click to expand...

It's a ceremonial rite, like a wedding or bar mitzvah, to cement and proclaim a change in status--in John's case, to change from sinner to repentant.

The Bible contradicts itself as to whether Jesus baptized, but at least his disciples apparently did.

Old John baptised with water, where as Jesus baptised in spirit, Jesus' baptism was nothing to do with water, it was spirit, for we are already one with God, in spirit.

Terrywoodenpic said:

John was a Jew, he went around Baptising .... why?
Did other Jews Baptise....?

We Baptise today.... are we doing something different to John?

This is a mind clearing exercise..... Enjoy.

Click to expand...

Baptism both is and isn't a mikveh. It is a mikveh to those who believe that it is but not to those who don't. 2 Kings 5:1 records the first 'Baptism'. The man Naaman washes seven times and isn't circumcised, but he is a convert anyway. He's the model of baptism. Elisha doesn't personally wash him, He's cleansed of leprosy, leprosy which in the Law requires a person to be excluded and is caused by iniquities. Cleansing of leprosy is central in Jesus ministry, a ministry that recognizes that someday the Samaritans will be considered 'Clean' again (and all other people too it is implied). Naaman is Assyrian, and 'Father Abraham is Assyrian' and many other facts about this story all point to a connection with John the Baptist, with Christian baptism and from there is derived the Christian allowance of a connection to Judaism without certain kosher requirements.

Terrywoodenpic said:

John was a Jew, he went around Baptising .... why?
Did other Jews Baptise....?

We Baptise today.... are we doing something different to John?

This is a mind clearing exercise..... Enjoy.

Click to expand...

I think this quote from Worship the Only True God published by Jws explains John's baptizing well; "About six months before Jesus was baptized, John the Baptizer went preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying: “Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.” (Matthew 3:1, 2) People heard what John said and took it to heart. They openly confessed their sins, repented of them, and then came to John to be baptized by him in the Jordan River. That baptism was for the Jews.—Luke 1:13-16; Acts 13:23, 24.

Those Jews were urgently in need of repentance. At Mount Sinai in the year 1513 B.C.E., their forefathers had entered into a national covenant—a formal, solemn agreement—with Jehovah God. But because of their gross sins, they did not live up to their responsibilities under that covenant, so they were condemned by it. By Jesus’ day their situation was critical. “The great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah” foretold by Malachi was near. In 70 C.E., that “day” came when Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem, its temple, and over a million Jews. John the Baptizer, with a zeal for true worship, was sent in advance of that destruction, “to get ready for Jehovah a prepared people.” They needed to repent of their sins against the Mosaic Law covenant and be prepared to accept the Son of God, Jesus, whom Jehovah was sending to them.—Malachi 4:4-6; Luke 1:17; Acts 19:4.