Who caused Satan or the devil rebel

Etritonakin · Mar 27, 2015

JoStories said:
re you saying that God is guilty for giving the angels the ability to make decisions -including the ability to disobey God?

Should he have forced them to obey?

God is ultimately responsible and accountable for all that has been -and what will be.

In your first sentence you ask if God is guilty for giving angels decision making ability, and then you state that God is responsible and accountable for everything. It seems to me you are admitting that God is guilty of giving the angels the ability to make choices.

Since you seem to think God is guilty of something, could you explain in detail and then describe what you think God should have done differently -or should not have done -or what he should now do to make things right?

I don't see this he way you imply. I only see God in a different light than you. I don't believe that God has anything to do with our choices. We make our own in order to evolve to a higher consciousness. It is not a question of God being right or wrong but rather us trying to live up to our highest potential. If you have any interest, the books written by Madame Helena Blavatsky.

God is ultimately responsible for everything -not directly responsible for -or guilty of -everything.

Satan is responsible for his own actions and decisions.

If God tells me not to kill -and I kill -how is that God's fault?

Is he guilty for making me able to kill? steal? lie? covet?

If so, then in order to not be guilty, God would have had to simply make us incapable of independent though -which would mean that he could not have created creators.

The creation of creators meant that individuals would have to rule their own spirits -learn to make the proper choices.

Because he said we are gods, and are children of the most high, we must become responsible and accountable.

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

God told the truth -gave proper instruction -and individuals chose otherwise. God is not "guilty". Neither are those who make mistakes in innocence -but not everyone is innocent.
Some knowingly intend to do that which is evil.

There is a difference between responsibility and guilt.

Individuals are responsible for their own actions -but God is responsible for bringing the situation he set in motion back to perfection -which includes holding accountable those who are responsible for various things.

As God stated, he is accountable to himself.

As it says, he gave the creation over to futility in hope. He knew full well what could happen -and he knows full well how it will end.

It will end well.

Where once there was only God and the Word, there will eventually be the many angels and the many children of god.

That end result could not have happened without this temporary situation.

Obedience to God is simply adhering to universal government based on universal truth -which, in turn, allows for freedom and creativity without conflict.

Disobedience to God is a temporary situation which will show by experience that it only brings conflict, ruin and unhappiness -and thereby the desire to choose it or the doubt that it is true will eventually be completely eradicated.

If some still refuse, they can be and must be removed from the situation. There is an ultimatum -there must be -but that is not to say there is no hope or possibility for -even inevitability of -something other.

Here is what God ultimately did -and why....

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

It helps to see things as a process which is still ongoing -not as an end result.
The end result will be far greater than any temporarily-imperfect situation.

Monk Of Reason · Mar 27, 2015

URAVIP2ME said:
From Scripture,

A point I feel I should make here is that scripture may not be reliable. Even if god existed and it was the god of the bible and it was his word...how do we know his word can be trusted? If he were deceitful and wanted to control his followers he would obviously hide that from them and give an alternative message.

since God's kingdom - Daniel 2:44 - is God's government, and Jesus is king (president ) of God's kingdom for a thousand years, then Jesus is a theocrat. No, Not the modern-day definition of theocracy which is clergy rule or rule by clergy class.
God's kingdom government would then be God ruled, and placed in Jesus' hands for a thousand years over earth - 1st Cor. 15:24
Ecclesiastes 8:9,11 mentions that it is man who has dominated man to man's hurt or injury. ' Man' because God does Not interfere.
Humans have committed horrendous acts of violence causing immense suffering.
God put a stop to such a violent world in Noah's day.
Noah was Not just an Ark builder but also a preacher. Those people were warned before hand. They chose to remain violent.
God does Not tempt, or test, or try to get anyone to behave badly.
If God were to step in before bad things would happen, that would show God knew in advance. His Not stepping in shows otherwise.
God chooses Not to use His foreknowledge where our gift of free will is concerned.

Did god not create us? And the world? The world that is full of temptations and our own weakness? Yet we are at fault?

There is the ' wrong use ' of free thought and individuality and that is what is prohibited.
*People are to be limited by the Golden Rule - Matthew 7:12; 22:39; Romans 12:10; 13:10
*To conquer evil with good - Matthew 5:44
*Not just be peaceful but to pursue peace - Mark 9:50; Romans 12:18; 14:19
*We are to be loyal or faithful to loved ones - Proverbs 5:15-20
*We are to be honest - Micah 6:11; Hebrews 13:18; Amos 5:15; Zechariah 8:16; Ephesians 4:25
*We are to be Not just honest workers but be diligent or industrious workers - Romans 22:29; 12:11; Colossians 3:23

I don't like this concept of "wrong use of free will and individuality" simply because it can go wrong. I also don't think its a legitimate reason to ban it. Its like putting everyone in prison because there is the possibility of us doing something bad.

In the old Hebrew Scriptures yes there is mention of Satan as the serpent in Eden, and at Ezekiel 28 vs 13-19

The Jewish interpretation is that this was in fact not Satan. This is a new interpretation that was made by the Christians some time around 300 AD or so. And I just checked out the verses and I seen no mention of Satan. Could you point it out to me?

There is also mention of hell. No, Not the hell of religious-myth teachings, but biblical hell which is the grave.
There as No postmortem penalty for Adam. Dead Adam simply ' returned ' to the dust of the ground - Gen. 3:19
Especially when the Jews began mixing with the Greeks then they adopted the idea of a permanent burning hell.
Whereas the Bible's hell is the temporary sleeping place or stone-cold grave for the dead. - Ecclesiastes 9:5

Actually the full fledged version of "hell" of fire and brimstone was probably created after influence with the Norsemen of the north. In fact their afterlife concept of suffering was called Hel.

No, Not just cuz. - God only acted after he sent people to warn people to change their bad or violent ways.
Is it cruel to pass judgment on those who are causing others to suffer ?________
Even if there were ten righteous people in Sodom, then Sodom would have been spared - Genesis 18: 20-33
God removed the righteous before Sodom was destroyed.
God searches to see the depths of the wickedness in people's hearts - 1st Chronicles 28:9
God extended mercy to wicked Canaanites who abandoned their wicked ways - Joshua 6:25; 9:3,24-26
Human suffering will only be eliminated by ridding the earth of those who would bring ruin to earth - Rev. 11:18 B
God will know when it will reach the point of no return. When minor children would grow up to be like the parent.
When the parent is beyond reform, beyond repentance so will their children be like them- Deut. 30:19,20

I still do not agree that an all loving god would murder children. I could get into it more but I doubt we will see eye to eye. All of the verses you have brought up sound like explanations and rationalizations of his actions rather than legitimate explanations.

JoStories · Mar 27, 2015

God is ultimately responsible for everything -not directly responsible for -or guilty of -everything.

Satan is responsible for his own actions and decisions.

If God tells me not to kill -and I kill -how is that God's fault?

Because God would have known what you were going to do and since God set that as one of God's dont do this list, it means God allowed you to do it in direct opposition to what God wanted. Its like letting your child play on the 105 Freeway in heavy traffic and they get hurt. Whose fault is that? Their's? No. IT would be yours.

because he said we are gods, and are children of the most high, we must become responsible and accountable.

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

God told the truth -gave proper instruction -and individuals chose otherwise. God is not "guilty". Neither are those who make mistakes in innocence -but not everyone is innocent.
Some knowingly intend to do that which is evil.

Being Buddhist, I don't believe that concept of God saying we are gods. In my view, we strive for perfection in what we do, learning as we go and trying to do no harm to anyone or anything. Of course, we have much to grow from. Some Buddhists are strict vegans or vegetarians. They believe eating animal flesh is harming that animal. I don't agree but this is something we are here to learn about and find meaning from.

Disobedience to God is a temporary situation which will show by experience that it only brings conflict, ruin and unhappiness -and thereby the desire to choose it or the doubt that it is true will eventually be completely eradicated.

If some still refuse, they can be and must be removed from the situation. There is an ultimatum -there must be -but that is not to say there is no hope or possibility for -even inevitability of -something other.

Here is what God ultimately did -and why....

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

It helps to see things as a process which is still ongoing -not as an end result.
The end result will be far greater than any temporarily-imperfect situation.

This part about disobedience to God I strongly disagree with. Sometimes we must experience conflict, ruin, and unhappiness to learn from that and be able to understand the difference. I am not quite sure what you mean by 'removed from the situation'. Are you referring to being sent to Hell? If so, I don't believe in hell at all. What I do believe in is the Bardo state, which is a state of being after we die to contemplate what we did or did not learn in the life we just lived through and see where we need to go next to experience enlightenment. Similarly I do not believe in evil. IMO, that is a man made concept to try to keep people in line and furthermore, it comes more from Milton or Dante than any historical source.

Monk Of Reason · Mar 27, 2015

JoStories said:
God is ultimately responsible for everything
Satan is responsible for his own actions and decisions.

If God tells me not to kill -and I kill -how is that God's fault?

Because just as you stated. God is ultimately responsible if he is all powerful and all knowing.

JoStories · Mar 27, 2015

Monk Of Reason said:
Because just as you stated. God is ultimately responsible if he is all powerful and all knowing.

I agree monk. If God is all knowing and would know what we will do, then there is no real free will. Since I am not Christian, per their dogma, I am going to hell. How sad and myopic is that?

Monk Of Reason · Mar 27, 2015

JoStories said:
I agree monk. If God is all knowing and would know what we will do, then there is no real free will. Since I am not Christian, per their dogma, I am going to hell. How sad and myopic is that?

More than just myopic but purely asinine.

URAVIP2ME · Mar 27, 2015

JoStories said:
I agree monk. If God is all knowing and would know what we will do, then there is no real free will. Since I am not Christian, per their dogma, I am going to hell. How sad and myopic is that?

What about what the Bible really teaches. Who teaches ' going to hell ' but Christendom which is so-called Christianity in name only.
Can you think of anyone righteous that went to hell ?______
Why did the dead Jesus ' go to hell '? - Acts 2 vs 27,31,32; Psalm 16:10
Jesus went to biblical hell because the Bible's hell is just mankind's temporary stone-cold common grave.
What did Jesus teach about being dead at John 11 vs 11-14 - but that the dead are in a sleep-like state.
Jesus' teachings are in harmony with Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:15; 146:4 which also teaches sleep in death.
Doesn't Ecclesiastes 9:5 say the dead know nothing ?_______
So, while Jesus was in hell (grave ) then Jesus knew nothing until God resurrected Jesus out of hell - Acts 3:15; 13 vs 30,37
Jesus now has the keys to unlock the Bible's temporary hell or grave - see Revelation 1:18
What happens to the Bible's hell according to Rev. 20 vs 13,14 but that everyone in hell is ' delivered up ' meaning resurrected out of hell, then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell.
The Bible's temporary hell or grave comes to a final end. Enemy death will be brought to nothing - see 1st Cor. 15:26
So, as per the Bible, a person is going to a temporary biblical hell (the grave ) just because he has died and awaits a resurrection.
Some resurrected to heaven - Rev. 20:6. Most or the majority of mankind will have a healthy physical resurrection back to life on earth starting with Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom rule over earth. That is why Acts 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.....

There is free will because God gave that gift to all.
The all-knowing God chooses to give us choices such as found at Deut. 30:19
If God gave us No choice then one could say he was forced by God to worship and obey Him.
In His all-knowing wisdom God knows Not to force or bully anyone, but cruel people will judged as Not being worthy of inheriting the earth as Psalm 37 vs 11,29,38 mentions. Wicked people will be: destroyed forever - Psalm 92:7 - Not roasted forever.

URAVIP2ME · Mar 27, 2015

Monk Of Reason said:
Because just as you stated. God is ultimately responsible if he is all powerful and all knowing.

Think about what ' all powerful ' can mean:
God is all powerful in that God is all wise and can handle any situation to the best advantage for the final outcome.
However, God is Not all powerful in that God can tell a lie, or force us to worship or obey Him. God can't lie - Titus 1:2 Hebrews 6:18

God is all knowing in knowing His is the best way or ruling or governing to bring Peace on Earth and being an end to enemy death.
However, God is Not all knowing as to who will choose to obey Him. The great crowd of people at Rev. 7 vs 9,10 are un-numbered.
They can't be numbered just as the grains of sands of the seashore can Not be counted. That number remains ' open ' because of our gifted free will. Who will end up as being humble ' sheep ' or haughty ' goats ' remains to be seen - Matthew 25 vs 31,32

Monk Of Reason · Mar 27, 2015

URAVIP2ME said:
Think about what ' all powerful ' can mean:
God is all powerful in that God is all wise and can handle any situation to the best advantage for the final outcome.
However, God is Not all powerful in that God can tell a lie, or force us to worship or obey Him. God can't lie - Titus 1:2 Hebrews 6:18

God is all knowing in knowing His is the best way or ruling or governing to bring Peace on Earth and being an end to enemy death.
However, God is Not all knowing as to who will choose to obey Him. The great crowd of people at Rev. 7 vs 9,10 are un-numbered.
They can't be numbered just as the grains of sands of the seashore can Not be counted. That number remains ' open ' because of our gifted free will. Who will end up as being humble ' sheep ' or haughty ' goats ' remains to be seen - Matthew 25 vs 31,32

So we have established that is does not have foresight in any mystical sense of the word and that he is in fact 'not' all powerful. If it is an imperfect but powerful being then I suppose you can't fault him for trying his level best and failing.

URAVIP2ME · Mar 27, 2015

JoStories said:
That is one view of karma, I agree. IMO, karma can be both. And as for children, as I said, it's my view that we choose the life we need to learn from and as hard as it may seem, and trust me, it gives me a great deal of pause, sometimes children choose difficult childhood experiences. For example, I was raped when I was a child. It's my view I chose that to prepare myself for when my daughter was raped. So that I could help to support and guide her through the horrific aftermath that a pedophile leaves a child of rape with. I shall look for your post. Very nice discussion with you.

Thank you for your reply. I am so sorry that you had such a horrific experience.
I hope you can find comfort in the words of Jesus at Revelation 21:5 that God will make all things new.
' all things new ' will happen on earth during Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom rule over earth. - Psalm 72 vs 8,12-14

How can a child or anyone choose the life we need to learn from ?
If a person was a failure in school, does that automatically mean that person's child would also be a failure in school ?

If a person was having marital problems surely they would Not turn to the happiest couple they know for help, but logically they would go to someone who was in the ' same boat ' so to speak, at one time or another.

Damage to the emotional system apparently does Not now go away, but it's the learning to live with it.
One in such a damaged situation can support and guide any person to deal with getting past the far side of grief.
Just as another person can aid another in a different situation.

The idea of the Karma concept apparently holds out No hope of stopping bad things from happening or re-cycling.
That is just so far different from what the Bible really teaches.
Adam lost a beautiful paradisaic earth for us.
If Adam had Not broken God's law then Adam would still be healthy alive on earth today and earth would be like the Garden of Eden.
Death was the penalty for breaking the law. No postmortem penalty, just the returning to the dust of the ground - Gen. 3:19
In other words, - Romans 6:7 - people do Not keep on paying for sins after death.
Death, so to speak, wipes the slate clean. Not meaning now innocent, but as a governor can pardon a person so the crime charges do Not stick, Jesus can pardon a person so the sin charges No longer stick, No re-cycling of suffering.
During Jesus' millennium-long day of ruling over earth according to Revelation 22:2 all nations of earth will be blessed.
Blessed with the healing or curing of earth's nations, thus all things will be new.
What father Adam lost for us Jesus will make new as Eden was new.

muhammad_isa · Mar 27, 2015

Monk Of Reason said:
..God is ultimately responsible if he is all powerful and all knowing.

Does that resolve you from responsibility?

URAVIP2ME · Mar 27, 2015

Monk Of Reason said:
So we have established that is does not have foresight in any mystical sense of the word and that he is in fact 'not' all powerful. If it is an imperfect but powerful being then I suppose you can't fault him for trying his level best and failing.

These days we hear of ' computer speak ' so, I imagine one can say there is also ' Bible speak '

How is God Not being able to lie, steal, cheat, be unjust, Not make you do things against your will, mean God is imperfect ?
Those powerful good qualities are in perfect balance with perfect justice.

Since, according to Scripture, Satan is the 'god' of this world of badness - 1st John 5:19; 2nd Cor. 4:4 - then isn't it Satan trying his level best and failing ? This present system is based on greed, hatred, even wicked deeds. Jesus, according to Scripture, on the other hand will break up such works of the devil - 1st John 3:8

Jesus talked about bad conditions existing on earth in Matthew chapter 24 and Luke chapter 21. Never did Jesus say such things were from God, just that such things would be happening before the start of Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom rule over earth when Jesus will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.

Monk Of Reason · Mar 27, 2015

muhammad_isa said:
Does that resolve you from responsibility?

In many respects...yes. But the argument is that god is not an all perfect being and I don't have any reason to immediately trust him or his judgement. I do not think he has the authority to judge me when he himself is also responsible.

Monk Of Reason · Mar 27, 2015

URAVIP2ME said:
These days we hear of ' computer speak ' so, I imagine one can say there is also ' Bible speak '

How is God Not being able to lie, steal, cheat, be unjust, Not make you do things against your will, mean God is imperfect ?
Those powerful good qualities are in perfect balance with perfect justice.

The argument could be made that these qualities make me greater than god. But the fact that he created such beings and has no way of seeing what they will do or be able to control it after it is set in motion is why I stated he was imperfect.

Since, according to Scripture, Satan is the 'god' of this world of badness - 1st John 5:19; 2nd Cor. 4:4 - then isn't it Satan trying his level best and failing ? This present system is based on greed, hatred, even wicked deeds. Jesus, according to Scripture, on the other hand will break up such works of the devil - 1st John 3:8

Jesus talked about bad conditions existing on earth in Matthew chapter 24 and Luke chapter 21. Never did Jesus say such things were from God, just that such things would be happening before the start of Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom rule over earth when Jesus will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.

I don't agree with the cop out that god created everything yet everything bad is our fault. Either he created "everything" or he didn't.
If Satan's goal was to screw up the world then he would be succeeding by many accounts. If you state that Satan is not trying to ruin the world but run it well then one could make that argument. But then one acknowledges that Satan isn't an evil being.

URAVIP2ME · Mar 27, 2015

Monk Of Reason said:
The argument could be made that these qualities make me greater than god. But the fact that he created such beings and has no way of seeing what they will do or be able to control it after it is set in motion is why I stated he was imperfect.
I don't agree with the cop out that god created everything yet everything bad is our fault. Either he created "everything" or he didn't.
If Satan's goal was to screw up the world then he would be succeeding by many accounts. If you state that Satan is not trying to ruin the world but run it well then one could make that argument. But then one acknowledges that Satan isn't an evil being.

How greater? You have the ability to do wrong such as lie, cheat, steal, etc.

Satan stands by Rule or Ruin.

It was being controlled after what Satan and Adam set in motion. That is what the first prophecy of Genesis 3:15 is all about.
Jesus proved to be that promised ' seed ' or offspring who will bring Satan to his end. - Hebrew 2:14 B

If Adam and Eve would have Not been allowed to have children we would never be here.
It is God's purpose - Genesis 1:28 - that earth be populated with descendants of Adam and Eve.
The passing of time gave us a chance to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us.
The passing of time shows all in heaven and earth that mankind can Not successfully govern himself - Jeremiah 10:23; 17:9
The eating from the ' tree of knowledge of good and bad ' did Not give Adam and Eve the knowledge to have peace on earth.
Human rule has proven to be a failure that the passing of time has proven beyond doubt.

Never said everything bad is our fault. Aren't there evils in abundance in today's world that simply can Not be put down to being a consequence of just human sin ?_________ Since God can Not lie, cheat, steal, etc. that leaves enemy Satan as being the one behind the scenes pulling on the puppet stings.

Monk Of Reason · Mar 27, 2015

URAVIP2ME said:
How greater? You have the ability to do wrong such as lie, cheat, steal, etc.

I am capable of doing something god is not. It hardly matters that what I can do so long as god is also unable to do it.

Satan stands by Rule or Ruin.

Does he?

It was being controlled after what Satan and Adam set in motion. That is what the first prophecy of Genesis 3:15 is all about.
Jesus proved to be that promised ' seed ' or offspring who will bring Satan to his end. - Hebrew 2:14 B

If Adam and Eve would have Not been allowed to have children we would never be here.
It is God's purpose - Genesis 1:28 - that earth be populated with descendants of Adam and Eve.
The passing of time gave us a chance to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us.
The passing of time shows all in heaven and earth that mankind can Not successfully govern himself - Jeremiah 10:23; 17:9
The eating from the ' tree of knowledge of good and bad ' did Not give Adam and Eve the knowledge to have peace on earth.
Human rule has proven to be a failure that the passing of time has proven beyond doubt.

So in this case god did create us and it was his will for us to fail? All of this set in motion for some grand plan knowing that the vast majority of souls would be damned to hell?

Never said everything bad is our fault. Aren't there evils in abundance in today's world that simply can Not be put down to being a consequence of just human sin ?_________ Since God can Not lie, cheat, steal, etc. that leaves enemy Satan as being the one behind the scenes pulling on the puppet stings.

Not necessarily. A storm cannot be evil but it can be devastating. Evil requires intent and natural phenomena doesn't have that.

URAVIP2ME · Mar 27, 2015

Monk Of Reason said:
In many respects...yes. But the argument is that god is not an all perfect being and I don't have any reason to immediately trust him or his judgement. I do not think he has the authority to judge me when he himself is also responsible.

What is Not to trust about following the Golden Rule ?
What is Not to trust about being honest, fair, truthful, forgiving, faithful, just, respecting others, etc.?
If those timeless principles were Not already recorded in Scripture, then there would be No basis for judgment, however since God's judgment is already recorded in Scripture then we can compare our thinking with what is already recorded for all to read.
God as our Heavenly Father is responsible for our life. The word father means Life Giver.
What we do with our life is our responsibility in light of what Jesus taught.
What can you find wrong with what Jesus taught ? Such as in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.

Monk Of Reason · Mar 27, 2015

URAVIP2ME said:
What is Not to trust about following the Golden Rule ?

There are many a rule in the Christian religion that has nothing to do with the golden rule.

What is Not to trust about being honest, fair, truthful, forgiving, faithful, just, respecting others, etc.?

If it were only that we wouldn't need a religion.

If those timeless principles were Not already recorded in Scripture, then there would be No basis for judgment, however since God's judgment is already recorded in Scripture then we can compare our thinking with what is already recorded for all to read.

It is my current opinion that the bible is not perfect in morality and there are many claims of morality that I do not agree with. Especially old testament law.

God as our Heavenly Father is responsible for our life. The word father means Life Giver.
What we do with our life is our responsibility in light of what Jesus taught.
What can you find wrong with what Jesus taught ? Such as in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.

Jesus in general had a good message I think. At least the broad message was good. So was the Buddah's and Harry Potter's.

But I think our topic has shifted quite a bit from what we were originally discussing about yes?

URAVIP2ME · Mar 27, 2015

Monk Of Reason said:
I am capable of doing something god is not. It hardly matters that what I can do so long as god is also unable to do it.
Does he?
So in this case god did create us and it was his will for us to fail? All of this set in motion for some grand plan knowing that the vast majority of souls would be damned to hell?
Not necessarily. A storm cannot be evil but it can be devastating. Evil requires intent and natural phenomena doesn't have that.

What I meant by evils was Not natural disasters or deadly calamities, but the works of human hands.
By Jesus calming the stormy sea was a small preview that under his 1000-year reign Jesus will control weather phenomenon.

Yipes ! Were did you read in Scripture that God will have the vast majority of souls damned to hell ?
Jesus' ransom covers MANY according to Matthew 20:28. Many would be the majority of mankind that ever lived since Abel would be covered by Jesus' ransom.
No one is damned to hell because the Bible's hell comes to a final end according to Revelation 20 vs 13,14
Was righteous Jesus damned to hell ?_______ According to Scripture the dead Jesus went to hell the day he died - Acts 2:27
Since Jesus taught ' sleep in death ' - John 11 vs 11-14 - then while in the Bible's hell Jesus would have been in a sleep-like state.
Jesus knew the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach: sleep in death.
Reference verses: Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4 Daniel 12 vs 2, 13; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Jesus has the keys to unlock hell which is the Bible's grave - Rev. 1:18. After everyone in the Bible's hell is ' delivered up' meaning resurrected out of hell, then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell. - Rev. 20 vs 13,14

The dead are freed or acquitted from their sins - Romans 6:7 - that is Not meaning they are now innocent, but as a governor can pardon a person so the crime charges do Not stick, Jesus can pardon a person so the sin charges do Not stick.

It is only the wicked who will then be: destroyed forever - Psalm 92:7; Hebrews 6 vs 4-6; Matthew 12:32 - Not roasted forever.
When the KJV Bible translated the word Gehenna in English as hell or hellfire then Gehenna was taught as a forever burning place.
Gehenna was simply a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed and Not kept burning forever.
So, Gehenna is a fitting word for: destruction.

What is unique about our time is that we are nearing the soon coming ' time of separation ' on earth of Matthew 25 vs 31,32.
Humble sheep-like people alive on earth can remain alive on earth - they are an un-numbered ' great ' crowd of people who can live through the coming great tribulation - Rev. 7:14 - right into the start of Jesus' 1000-year kingdom rule over earth, when Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.

Only some are called to heaven - Rev. 20:6. The majority of mankind will live right here on earth which includes most of the resurrected dead along with the living humble sheep-like ones.- Psalm 37 vs 11,29

URAVIP2ME · Mar 27, 2015

Monk Of Reason said:
There are many a rule in the Christian religion that has nothing to do with the golden rule.
If it were only that we wouldn't need a religion.
It is my current opinion that the bible is not perfect in morality and there are many claims of morality that I do not agree with. Especially old testament law.
Jesus in general had a good message I think. At least the broad message was good. So was the Buddah's and Harry Potter's.
But I think our topic has shifted quite a bit from what we were originally discussing about yes?

Which rule or principle had nothing to do with the Golden Rule?
Even Jesus ' new ' commandment of John 13vs 34,35 to have self-sacrificing love for others embodies the Golden Rule.
Remember the Constitution of that old Mosaic Law was only for one nation. That singled out nation was only ancient Israel.
How was Buddha's or Potters' message better than Jesus message ?
Yes, his broad message - Luke 4:43 - was good. That is why Jesus said to carry that message for our day at Matthew 24:14

Shifting or slanting the topic is OK with me if OK with you. Could we say it is evolving ?

Who caused Satan or the devil rebel

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