Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
The Spirit of God is God. The Spirit of Christ is Jesus who is God.
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Can someone explain the Trinity please...
- Thread starter Youtellme
- Start date
Yes asked : “ Why do you keep saying "Oneness"? “
JM2C explained : “A United One, Echad, and not an only one, Yachid..Study this and you will understand”
JM2C –
I very much like the fact that you have some historical context and knowledge concerning the Judeo-Christian use of the word that is describing how God the Father and His Son and the Holy Spirit were “one” in early Judeo-Christian tradition.
יחד (yachad) as it describes the type of “one ness” and “unity” of the The Father and his son and the Holy Spirit is often and easily confused with the english numerical term, “one”. While “yachad” may be three individuals who are united in a single cosmic purpose (as is the early Christian “Godhead” of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), it may refer to any number who are similar united upon a single covenant and purpose.
If Jesus, in speaking to his Father in prayer, asked for a blessing upon his disciples “… that they may be one, as we are…”. (Jn 17:11)
If Jesus was praying in a form of Hebrew (rather than greek), then he is probably not using the numerical term “one”, but probably the conceptual term “yachad” (i.e. one in purpose and thought and heart…). This was a common religious term applied to those who are gathered upon a single principle, such as those who committed to the same religious covenant.
In fact, when the Jewish association of Messianics in Qumran formed, they designated themselves a ‘yachad’. To avoid mis-connotations of using various possible english “semi-equivalents”, the “Wise, Abegg and Cook translators of the Dead Sea Scrolls decided not to use the word “community”, but rather they used “yachad”, which was one of the society’s most common self-designations. It is very clear that this “oneness” of a yachad is not a numerical designation, but a conceptual unity of multiple individuals.
For examples, when CHARTER (1QSa, 1Q28a) describes the banquet–feast in the latter days associated with the arrival of the Messiah, it is “a banquet held by the society of the yahad”. This “one-ness” involves a number of individuals.
In describing the PROOF TEXTS of 4Q175 one shared concept which partly created this “oneness” of faith was the societys’ expectations for the coming of the prophet who was like Moses (the greatest prophet); the royal scion of David and a high priest... They were "yachad" and "united" on this point.
In 4Q177, describes the time "...when the men of the yachad flee...". They fled in unison and share in their exile from their land. They are even sharing a “oneness” in the experiences of exile.
1QS, 4Q255-264a, 5Q11 Col 8 describes this unity of the partly as a shared and united acceptance of a covenant of justice; a covenant of “upholding the covenant of eternal (divine) statutes.” . It says that as this way “…is perfected among the men of the Yahad, each walking blamelessly with his fellow”, each person being “… guided by what has been revealed to them.”
The concept of “oneness” of a “yachad” is not simply a temporary or societal term, but an eternal religious concept much like the concept of a Christian heaven where individuals are united in living eternal social principles and live together in joy and harmony for ever. Heaven is another type of “yachad”.
That "one-ness" of multiple individuals as a "yachad" was, historically, a principle of "one ness" in heaven as well as an earthly principle is made clear in early texts. For example, in the "Priestly blessing for the last days" in 1Q28b, 1QSb Col. 4 the text says : “…May you abide forever as an angel of the Presence in the Holy habitation to the glory of the God of hosts. May you serve in the temple of the kingdom of God, ordering destiny with the angels of the presence, a society of the yahad with the holy ones forever, for all the ages of eternity.”
This society of individuals who have become “one” in purpose; one in heart and sentiment and even one in mind and thought as it regards this shared covenant is the concept underlying both Jesus’ prayer for his disciples and it’s great example of the ‘yachad’ which forms the Christian God-head and “unity” involving God the Father, his Son and the Holy Spirit.
JM2C, I think it is good that you and the rest of us understand and use historical concepts and some points of language and it's meaning to early Judeo-Christians in your interpretations.
Clear
δρτωτωσεω
JM2C explained : “A United One, Echad, and not an only one, Yachid..Study this and you will understand”
JM2C –
I very much like the fact that you have some historical context and knowledge concerning the Judeo-Christian use of the word that is describing how God the Father and His Son and the Holy Spirit were “one” in early Judeo-Christian tradition.
יחד (yachad) as it describes the type of “one ness” and “unity” of the The Father and his son and the Holy Spirit is often and easily confused with the english numerical term, “one”. While “yachad” may be three individuals who are united in a single cosmic purpose (as is the early Christian “Godhead” of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), it may refer to any number who are similar united upon a single covenant and purpose.
If Jesus, in speaking to his Father in prayer, asked for a blessing upon his disciples “… that they may be one, as we are…”. (Jn 17:11)
If Jesus was praying in a form of Hebrew (rather than greek), then he is probably not using the numerical term “one”, but probably the conceptual term “yachad” (i.e. one in purpose and thought and heart…). This was a common religious term applied to those who are gathered upon a single principle, such as those who committed to the same religious covenant.
In fact, when the Jewish association of Messianics in Qumran formed, they designated themselves a ‘yachad’. To avoid mis-connotations of using various possible english “semi-equivalents”, the “Wise, Abegg and Cook translators of the Dead Sea Scrolls decided not to use the word “community”, but rather they used “yachad”, which was one of the society’s most common self-designations. It is very clear that this “oneness” of a yachad is not a numerical designation, but a conceptual unity of multiple individuals.
For examples, when CHARTER (1QSa, 1Q28a) describes the banquet–feast in the latter days associated with the arrival of the Messiah, it is “a banquet held by the society of the yahad”. This “one-ness” involves a number of individuals.
In describing the PROOF TEXTS of 4Q175 one shared concept which partly created this “oneness” of faith was the societys’ expectations for the coming of the prophet who was like Moses (the greatest prophet); the royal scion of David and a high priest... They were "yachad" and "united" on this point.
In 4Q177, describes the time "...when the men of the yachad flee...". They fled in unison and share in their exile from their land. They are even sharing a “oneness” in the experiences of exile.
1QS, 4Q255-264a, 5Q11 Col 8 describes this unity of the partly as a shared and united acceptance of a covenant of justice; a covenant of “upholding the covenant of eternal (divine) statutes.” . It says that as this way “…is perfected among the men of the Yahad, each walking blamelessly with his fellow”, each person being “… guided by what has been revealed to them.”
The concept of “oneness” of a “yachad” is not simply a temporary or societal term, but an eternal religious concept much like the concept of a Christian heaven where individuals are united in living eternal social principles and live together in joy and harmony for ever. Heaven is another type of “yachad”.
That "one-ness" of multiple individuals as a "yachad" was, historically, a principle of "one ness" in heaven as well as an earthly principle is made clear in early texts. For example, in the "Priestly blessing for the last days" in 1Q28b, 1QSb Col. 4 the text says : “…May you abide forever as an angel of the Presence in the Holy habitation to the glory of the God of hosts. May you serve in the temple of the kingdom of God, ordering destiny with the angels of the presence, a society of the yahad with the holy ones forever, for all the ages of eternity.”
This society of individuals who have become “one” in purpose; one in heart and sentiment and even one in mind and thought as it regards this shared covenant is the concept underlying both Jesus’ prayer for his disciples and it’s great example of the ‘yachad’ which forms the Christian God-head and “unity” involving God the Father, his Son and the Holy Spirit.
JM2C, I think it is good that you and the rest of us understand and use historical concepts and some points of language and it's meaning to early Judeo-Christians in your interpretations.
Clear
δρτωτωσεω
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
The Holy Spirit is God. The Holy Spirit is Jesus' Spirit. There is only one Spirit.
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
We do not have to learn another language. What you say is not from God.
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
The scriptures say God pours out the Holy Spirit.
Titus 3:5, 6 He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, And Acts 2:18.
The scriptures say Jesus pours out the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
The scriptures say God pours out the Holy Spirit THROUGH JESUS. See Titus 3:6. whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,
The scriptures say God pours out the Holy Spirit THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT.
God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. See Romans 5:5.
Do you understand that? Do you understand that it proves God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same?
If you say no, then you have claimed the Bible contradicts itself all the time.
Is that what you want to keep saying?
Titus 3:5, 6 He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, And Acts 2:18.
The scriptures say Jesus pours out the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
The scriptures say God pours out the Holy Spirit THROUGH JESUS. See Titus 3:6. whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,
The scriptures say God pours out the Holy Spirit THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT.
God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. See Romans 5:5.
Do you understand that? Do you understand that it proves God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same?
If you say no, then you have claimed the Bible contradicts itself all the time.
Is that what you want to keep saying?
Yes claimed : The scriptures say God pours out the Holy Spirit THROUGH JESUS. See Titus 3:6. whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Titus 3: 5 ... according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Yes : I disagree with you about the value of knowing what the most original and correct form of scriptures actually said.
For example, your theory that the holy spirit is poured out “through Jesus” is dependent (in this specific post) upon your faulty interpretation of the text. It is clear in greek that it is the MERCY which is being shed by Jesus in this sentence, and not the spirit which he sheds on us.
The English comma is correctly placed and the second phrase in vs 5 is a dependent phrase, not independent. It is even more clear in the greek.
Κατα τον.αυτου.ελεον εσωσεν ημας, δια λουτρου παλεγγενεσιας και ανακαινωσεως πνευματος αγιου (vs6) ου εχεχειν εφ ημας πλαυσιως δια ιησου χριστου
It is “…according to his mercy he saved us”. The phrase “ he saved us through washing of regeneration and renewing of Holy Spirit” is a independent phrase, interjected with it's own subject. It is Mercy “which is the subject of the first phrase to which vs 6 refers. It is mercy (the subject) which is “..poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ…”.
For example, consider the meaning if one simply places parentheses around the dependent phrase : , Titus 3: 5 ... according to his mercy (he saved us by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost) which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Your bias and assumptions seems to be driving your interpretations of and theories.
Please Yes, consider the concept that there might be some value in learning to read the original language and that many of the mistakes we all make in interpretation and theorizing, is partly because we do not understand the original text as the original writers meant it.
In any case, I wish you a good journey and good luck in making interpretations and theories based upon those interpretations you make.
Clear
δρτωακω
Titus 3: 5 ... according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Yes : I disagree with you about the value of knowing what the most original and correct form of scriptures actually said.
For example, your theory that the holy spirit is poured out “through Jesus” is dependent (in this specific post) upon your faulty interpretation of the text. It is clear in greek that it is the MERCY which is being shed by Jesus in this sentence, and not the spirit which he sheds on us.
The English comma is correctly placed and the second phrase in vs 5 is a dependent phrase, not independent. It is even more clear in the greek.
Κατα τον.αυτου.ελεον εσωσεν ημας, δια λουτρου παλεγγενεσιας και ανακαινωσεως πνευματος αγιου (vs6) ου εχεχειν εφ ημας πλαυσιως δια ιησου χριστου
It is “…according to his mercy he saved us”. The phrase “ he saved us through washing of regeneration and renewing of Holy Spirit” is a independent phrase, interjected with it's own subject. It is Mercy “which is the subject of the first phrase to which vs 6 refers. It is mercy (the subject) which is “..poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ…”.
For example, consider the meaning if one simply places parentheses around the dependent phrase : , Titus 3: 5 ... according to his mercy (he saved us by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost) which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Your bias and assumptions seems to be driving your interpretations of and theories.
Please Yes, consider the concept that there might be some value in learning to read the original language and that many of the mistakes we all make in interpretation and theorizing, is partly because we do not understand the original text as the original writers meant it.
In any case, I wish you a good journey and good luck in making interpretations and theories based upon those interpretations you make.
Clear
δρτωακω
Last edited:
Nada
#
No,it is no contradiction in the bible.Just a misunderstanding by those who do not know the truth yet that's all.You are misinformed.Let me show you.
John 10:29,30. …29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30"I and the Father are one."
It says the Father is greater.It also says I and the Father are one.Many think this literally means that they are all one.This is a misconception.This scripture is speaking of a spiritual union.Not a literal one.Did you notice that Jesus never mentions the holy spirit in this union? That is because the holy spirit is the force that God uses.It is not a 3rd participant in a Trinitarian union.
Here is another example.Others think that it means literally that they are all 3 in 1.This is incorrect.READ THIS
John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
If people think that this is literal then this means all the people are therefore part of this trinity.
Of course this is not true.People do not fully comprehend due to false doctrines that are spread by false religions that do not possess the truth.What this passage is saying is that Jesus and God are in a spiritual union and Jesus is asking that all may be part of this spiritual union by doing what God commands and heading the teachings of Jesus Christ who was sent by God for this very purpose.
By this happening all will know that Jesus was sent.Jesus' followers are spreading the good news about God's Kingdom.Spiritual unity..........
Ps.Again,notice the holy spirit is NEVER mentioned in this passage either.It only speaks of God,Jesus and the people.READ IT AGAIN
John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
No. Adonai to a Jew was YHWH.
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
We do not have to learn Greek to know God's Truth. You are proof that learning another language will not help.
When I gave scripture that says Jesus pours out the Holy Spirit, and that God pours out the Holy Spirit by the Holy Spirit...do you think those are the only scriptures I have that say that?
You are trying to change the written Word of God, but you cannot. You are trying to use Greek to change what the scriptures say.
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
The scriptures plainly and clearly say that Jesus is the Spirit.
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
We already have the Bible written in our English.
We do not need to learn another language to know God's Truth.
God brought the message to us in our languages.
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
Jesus is a life giving Spirit, see 1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.
Did you read that scripture? That scripture says Jesus is a SPIRIT.
This scripture says the Spirit gives life; see 2 Corinthians 3:6. Jesus gives life! John 5:21.
Read this scripture:
2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
That scripture SAYS the Lord is the Spirit.
Jesus is the Spirit. Revelation 2:7, 8, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22; 14:13; 22:17 all tell us Jesus is the Spirit.
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
I would say you have so judged yourself correctly.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
That was exactly my point. The word "theos" is not exclusively applied to either God or his son. This word in Greek is not necessarily what it means in English. When "the God" was mentioned, it was YHWH. Satan is also referred to as a god. (2 Cor 4:3, 4)
It was the Jews who accused Jesus of blasphemy when he claimed to be the son of God.....it was not Jesus who made the claim that he was God.
Again, yes....but he never claimed to be God, did he? He only ever said he was God's son. Even Adam is called a son of God, because, like Jesus, he was a creation of his Father. (Luke 3:38) Angels too share that designation. They too are powerful creatures but they are not as powerful as Almighty God.
Actually John 1:18 calls Jesus "the only begotten god" (theos) which makes many trinitarians uncomfortable. The Almighty cannot be "begotten".
In some Bibles, theos (god) is translated "son" in that verse to cover that up.
If John 1:18 is translated that way, then John 1:1 should also be rendered..."and the Word was the son".
Having glory does not make him God either. He is a glorious son of God and he was in existence before anything else. (Col 1:15, 16)
The preceding verses to that one say that God is speaking, not that he is being addressed; and the following verse uses the expression “God, thy God,” showing that the one addressed is not the Most High God but is a worshiper of that God. Hebrews 1:8 quotes from Psalm 45:6, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel.
No proof there.
If you read John 17:21-22, Jesus says.."that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one."
This is a unity of purpose and thought, not a claim to be part of God....unless you want to include the apostles in the godhead?
They were looking for any excuse to get rid of him.....they even produced false witnesses against him....what the Jews claimed was not true.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
Let me make this clear, I’m not saying that the Lord Jesus is the God the Father but according the word SG2316 “God”, except for a few, all were referred to either God the Father and the Lord Jesus in the NT as God the Father and the Son of God.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
Psalm 49:16 “splendor or glory” as “kevovd –HS3519” and Isaiah 6:3 “glory” “kevovd –HS3519” I could understand this, but conjugating this 2 with 1Samuel 4:18 with the word “heavy” “kaved –HS3515” that I could not.
In John the word “glory” [SG1391] all, except for a few, all referred to either God the Father or the Son of God.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
as the Son of God, right?
Heb 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.