Desert Snake
Veteran Member
I have a difficult time thinking that he parables are 'salvation'. but, o.k.
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If Jesus was a sacrifice...
- Thread starter Faybull
- Start date
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Personally - I think the rabble-rouser Jesus ended up killed for his rabble-rousing.
Then his followers, whom believed he was the Messiah, had to come up with a reason for his death, as the Messiah wasn't supposed to die, - thus he died for our sins, came about.
Then they had to come up with a reason he didn't immediately fulfill the Messiah requirements - "he is coming back sometime in the future to do it!"
I believe the Rabbi Jesus may have existed, and he may even have thought he was the awaited Messiah sent from God to bring about the end and Final Judgment, and he had some great teachings. But he wasn't the Messiah, as the others claiming such weren't, and they too were killed. But his followers later wrote a great story about him.
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Then his followers, whom believed he was the Messiah, had to come up with a reason for his death, as the Messiah wasn't supposed to die, - thus he died for our sins, came about.
Then they had to come up with a reason he didn't immediately fulfill the Messiah requirements - "he is coming back sometime in the future to do it!"
I believe the Rabbi Jesus may have existed, and he may even have thought he was the awaited Messiah sent from God to bring about the end and Final Judgment, and he had some great teachings. But he wasn't the Messiah, as the others claiming such weren't, and they too were killed. But his followers later wrote a great story about him.
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Sonofason
Well-Known Member
That's right, sinful men just aren't worthy sacrifices for the redemption of men.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
Jesus was sinless. He did not deserve to experience the excruciating agony that He endured. The rest of us do. There is no person alive who has not or who does not deserve to suffer in the way that Jesus suffered. Because each man deserves to suffer himself, at least what Jesus suffered, there is no man who's suffering can
be counted as a worthy payment toward the redemption of any other man. Each man's suffering, however horrible it could conceivably be would no doubt be insufficient to pay even his own sin debt. But Christ was perfect and sinless. His suffering, and only His suffering, because he owed no debt himself is counted as full payment for the sin debt of all mankind - that is, if you believe.
Ah, but if you don't believe, you will be paying for your own sins, even though you have nothing with which to pay down your debt.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
So you still cling to the notion of scapegoating?
gsa
Well-Known Member
As long as you admit that the suffering itself was not unique I will leave the theological speculation to speak for itself.
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
No, I just believe what the Bible says.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Jesus' suffering saves us? No, the ransom was his life for our life. His suffering was a separate issue altogether - clarified for us in the first 2 chapters of the book of Job. Can a perfect man keep his integrity perfectly? Was Adam justified in sinning?
"At that Satan answered Jehovah: 'Is it for nothing that Job has feared God? Have you not put a protective hedge around him and his house and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock has spread out in the land. But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your very face.'" - Job 1:9-11
"But Satan answered Jehovah: 'Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face." - Job 2:4,5
Notice that Satan challenged every man's integrity. Jesus was no exception.
Like Jesus, we can give something back to Jehovah by meeting this challenge.
"Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, So that I can make a reply to him who taunts me." - Proverbs 27:11
How can Jesus die for the sins of those not yet born through his crucifixion? It has been over 2000 years since he was sacrificed. Sins and sinners have grown since then. The price he paid may not be sufficient to cancel all the sins since his crucifixion. We need regular sacrifices to balance our debt.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Let me see if I got this right...
God creates man and sets up a set of rules called sins that he knows man cannot keep.
God then sends Himself to Earth as His son in order to "pay the price" of the a fore mentioned sins.
After the "price was paid" God resurrected His Son self.
God then sends Himself to Earth as His son in order to "pay the price" of the a fore mentioned sins.
After the "price was paid" God resurrected His Son self.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
"So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, so too through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life." - Romans 5:18
"To what end? So that just as sin ruled as king with death, so also undeserved kindness might rule as king though righteousness leading to everlasting life though Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 5:21
The price is paid, but the full benefits have not been applied yet. The "healing of the nations" is something that happens after Armageddon. (Rev 21:1-5; 22:1-2)
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
Contrary to what you are saying, I believe that Christ died for all of our sins; and by "us" I mean all of us; that is everyone. I mean, all of us that are now present, all of those who have preceded us, and all of those who shall succeed us. And that is everyone from the entire world, and that all of the sins, that you might be referring to, of all of those people are what Christ died for, and that He died to save all of those people from all of those sins that condemn them.
John, son of Zebedee (see Mk 1:19–20)—the apostle and the author of the Gospel of John and Revelation wrote:
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
(1 John 2:1-2)
However, consequences result from what we say and do.
Paul wrote:
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
(Hebrews 10:26-29)
You say,
I live by another standard which I believe can be conceptualized with an understanding of the following verses written by John the Apostle.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
(John 3:16-21)
Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
(John 3:15)
It is not so much that we need to make sacrifices. We need to make a choice.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
If I'm understanding you correctly. Jesus sacrificed--gave Himself up willingly for the benefit of something else more important--"to those who believed in His Father's teachings.
So He sacrificed Himself to those who believed in His Father's Will so that their sins will die through Him rather than they dying in their own sins.
To who? Christians (anyone who believes their sins die with Jesus on the Cross)
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
Well, yes, I believe that God creates man. And I believe that God has given mankind the ability to recognize right from wrong. And I believe that throughout the ages, mankind has been recording his observations of various rights and wrongs, and has been forming opinions and has been constructing laws which are a direct result of our personal perceptions of that inner sense of knowing right from wrong.
We oftentimes fail by our own standards. We sometimes fail by the standards of others. But I believe that we should not underestimate the standards of God.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
According to the Bible, god sets man up to fail on a regular basis.
Adam and Eve, the crucifixion...
CMike
Well-Known Member
He wasn't. He was caught and killed by the Romans.
He didn't slit his wrists not jump off a cliff.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
One tree out of dozens, perhaps hundreds or thousands. It does not seem like that great an onus on our first parents to be instructed to set one aside as sacred.
For however many years they lived in the Garden before choosing independent rule, they did not 'miss the mark' of God's standard of perfection for mankind; they were not prone to injure themselves and others.
It does not seem to show God as one who 'set us up' to fail.