If Jesus was a sacrifice...

[Twilight Hue]

Assuming Jesus was a man who was crucified, it was undoubtedly painful. But hundreds or thousands or perhaps millions suffered the same fate. None of these deaths carry cosmic significance.

That's true. Crucifixion was a fairly standard method from my understanding. It was employed before on others. The only issue is what exactly was sacrificed? I can give pain and suffering but that kills the theology.
If death was the contention then it's validity wouldn't exceed past
3 days/nights.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

to what or to whom was Jesus sacrificed?

Good question.

Colossians 2:13-14 tells us:
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him [Jesus], having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

There was a debt, with legal demands, to God. But God in His love and mercy chose to cancel that debt for us. He cancelled it by Jesus dying on the cross. He paid the debt so we wouldn't have to, meeting its legal demands.

The atonement itself I see as multi-faceted, while there is a debt paid to God to meet the "legal demands" there is also the triumph over evil, the victory over and defeat of Satan.

 

[Thief]

Good question.

Colossians 2:13-14 tells us:
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him [Jesus], having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

There was a debt, with legal demands, to God. But God in His love and mercy chose to cancel that debt for us. He cancelled it by Jesus dying on the cross. He paid the debt so we wouldn't have to, meeting its legal demands.

The atonement itself I see as multi-faceted, while there is a debt paid to God to meet the "legal demands" there is also the triumph over evil, the victory over and defeat of Satan.

This is the rhetoric I don't abide by.^

There was never any debt.
Just a need of technique....in mind and heart.....
The peace of heaven is guarded.
The angels carry swords.
And the Carpenter compared to Reapers.

Not everyone goes to heaven.
Many will say Lord!...Lord!.....and He knows them not.

If you go....it's because you belong there.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

This is the rhetoric I don't abide by.^

There was never any debt.
Just a need of technique....in mind and heart.....
The peace of heaven is guarded.
The angels carry swords.
And the Carpenter compared to Reapers.

Not everyone goes to heaven.
Many will say Lord!...Lord!.....and He knows them not.

If you go....it's because you belong there.

I'm not sure what view of the Scriptures you subscribe to yourself, but I have to say a literalist approach would indeed show there was a debt, one that was nailed to the cross. If you disagree then please demonstrate how so, or if you have a different approach or model of what the Scriptures are then that's fine, it'd be interesting to know!

 

[Noel]

But he didn't die according to Christians. That's the contention here. It cannot be a sacrifice in that respect. It's impossible.

Christians definitely believe he died, but we also believe he was resurrected

 

[Thief]

I'm not sure what view of the Scriptures you subscribe to yourself, but I have to say a literalist approach would indeed show there was a debt, one that was nailed to the cross. If you disagree then please demonstrate how so, or if you have a different approach or model of what the Scriptures are then that's fine, it'd be interesting to know!

Well, let's see...where to begin......

How about misconceptions generally speaking?
Jesus never wanted a crown on His head.
Whenever the topic came up.....He left.

Brother and fellow servant He did say of Himself.

What do you expect to see when you get there?

See my old thread...'Just for the fun of it'....

 

[Kolibri]

A "corresponding ransom" is one of equal weight with what is being bought back. (1 Tim 2:6) This gets befuddled when people portray the man Jesus as more than a perfect man while he was on earth. Jesus is called the "last Adam" because he was a perfect man with the potential for perfect children, just like Adam was before he sinned. Jesus sacrificed his perfect human life, (being resurrected back to spirit life - forever giving up the right to be a human). He thus bought back for mankind the right to inherit perfect human life - this time from him; Isaiah 9:6 refers to him as "Eternal Father," since by means of the ransom he can take the place of our biological first human father - Adam. Hebrews 9:11-20 refers to Jesus as our High Priest, who, after he ascended back to heaven formally presented the value of his human life-blood to his Father to appease the legal need for a perfect human life to be given to ransom back perfect human life. Roman 10:9 places a responsibility on each of us to exercise faith in this provision to reap the benefits - for some the first opportunity won't be till they are resurrected. (Acts 24:15) Rev 21:3,4 places the physical healing of mankind to be in the New Heavens and New Earth to come after God's War at Armageddon.

There are a few teachings of what are now traditional Churches that make the ransom difficult to explain - "Trinity," "Jesus as a God-man," "Heaven is the only reward for faithful ones" are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

(If one recognizes two rewards for faithful mankind, Jesus would be an "Eternal Father" to perfected mankind on earth, and a "brother" to those going to heaven. - Rom 8:29)

 

[Kolibri]

Yes. That is why we need a ransom. Adam was not created as a sinner, but since he did, we all inherit sin and thus pay the penalty. (Rom 5:12)

(response to a deleted post.)

 

[Kolibri]

So the sacrifice by Jesus was centered on intense pain and torture?

Actually the torture stake was not a legal requirement for all mankind to be ransomed. The method of death was a legal means to free the Jews from the Law Covenant.

All men are cursed to sin because of inherited imperfection stemming from being offspring of Adam - paying for it with death. (Romans 5:12) Any loss of a perfect human life could pay for perfect human life. (De 19:21) Paul, however, speaking as a Jewish Christian at Galatians 3:13 said: "Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: 'Accursed is every man hung upon a stake.'" Here he was quoting De 21:23 and presenting it as a legal means to free the Jews from the oath to keep a Law that stipulated a severe curse for breaking it.

Thus, according to Paul, Jesus died in a specific manner to release the Jews.

 

[Kolibri]

Another detail about the sacrifice that is worth mentioning is that there was the legal need to the shed blood. But, as recorded in John, this did happen after Jesus died. So this detail could have been provided for regardless of the manner of his death.

"Yes, according to the Law nearly all things are cleansed with blood, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place." - Hebrews 9:22

"For that reason I will assign him a portion among the many, And he will apportion the spoil with the mighty, Because he poured out his life (or "soul") even to death And he was counted among the transgressors; He carried the sin of many people, And he interceded for the transgressors." - Isaiah 53:12

"But on coming to Jesus, they saw that he was already dead, so they did not break his legs. But one of the soldiers jabbed his side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out." - John 19:33,34

 

[Thief]

That He was counted among transgressors is a note or prophecy.
He hung between to thieves.

So you did the comparative study????

 

[Kolibri]

So you did the comparative study????

Study becomes a way of life, but I have been doing more detailed study along these specific topics again since I joined the forum. Are you referring to a type of study or a particular study coarse? I am not seminary trained.

As Isaiah was written over 700 years before Jesus walked the earth, I would consider it fulfilled prophesy.

 

[Thief]

Study becomes a way of life, but I have been doing more detailed study along these specific topics again since I joined the forum. Are you referring to a type of study or a particular study coarse? I am not seminary trained.

As Isaiah was written over 700 years before Jesus walked the earth, I would consider it fulfilled prophesy.

From previous post....I was making note the differences in the gospels.
The reports of His crucifixion vary and the portion the two thieves play out is also at variance.

 

[Kolibri]

ah yes. Much like witnesses of a car accident will report different things that stood out to them, there can be some variance. Getting the report of each witness can create a more complete picture.

 

[Thief]

Likewise to the scheme of this thread.

Jesus died....but saved no one by doing so.
His death was predictable......many years before it happened.
Even the details were waiting for Him.

His parables are the salvation.
You cannot nod your head and say.....Lord!....Lord!......
and expect to wander as you please.

You have to keep His given Word.

 

[Kolibri]

I don't know of anyone living today that can predict what is going to happen with such detail 100 years into the future. The dreams of those at the end of the 19th century of peace and prosperity during the 20th certainly failed. Of the hundreds of prophesies regarding Jesus, many of them were out of his control. Such as the casting of lots over his garments or being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver - money that was not kept by by the betrayer, or that not a bone of his would be broken.

"They divide my garments among themselves, And they cast lots for my clothing." - Ps 22:18

"Then I said to them: 'If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, withhold them.' And they paid my wages, 30 pieces of silver. Then Jehovah said to me: 'Throw it into the treasury-the magnificent value with which they valued me." So I took the 30 pieces of silver and threw it into the treasury at the house of Jehovah." - Zech 11:12,13

"He is guarding all his bones; Not one of them has been broken." - Ps 34:20

 

[Faybull]

Actually the torture stake was not a legal requirement for all mankind to be ransomed. The method of death was a legal means to free the Jews from the Law Covenant.

All men are cursed to sin because of inherited imperfection stemming from being offspring of Adam - paying for it with death. (Romans 5:12) Any loss of a perfect human life could pay for perfect human life. (De 19:21) Paul, however, speaking as a Jewish Christian at Galatians 3:13 said: "Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: 'Accursed is every man hung upon a stake.'" Here he was quoting De 21:23 and presenting it as a legal means to free the Jews from the oath to keep a Law that stipulated a severe curse for breaking it.

Thus, according to Paul, Jesus died in a specific manner to release the Jews.

So calls calls sinners and the disobedient, "righteous"? Is that your understanding?

 

[Kolibri]

"Or do you not now that unrighteous people will not inherit God's Kingdom? Do not be misled (or "deceived.") Those who are....will not inherit God's Kingdom. And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God" - 1 Cor 6:9-11

It is not that we are righteous, but by our repentance, conversion and faith in this provision we can be declared as such. KJ uses "justified" instead of "declared righteous."

 

[Faybull]

"Or do you not now that unrighteous people will not inherit God's Kingdom? Do not be misled (or "deceived.") Those who are....will not inherit God's Kingdom. And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God" - 1 Cor 6:9-11

It is not that we are righteous, but by our repentance, conversion and faith in this provision we can be declared as such. KJ uses "justified" instead of "declared righteous."

You ever tried cleaning clothes with blood?

 

[Kolibri]

not personally. But I do know that sin is symbolically referred to as red and looking at something red thru a red lens does make the red behind it seem white.

"Come, now, and let us set matters straight between us," says Jehovah. "Though your sins are like scarlet, The will be made as white as snow; Though they are as red as crimson cloth, The will become like wool." - Isaiah 1:18