If Jesus was a sacrifice...

[Sonofason]

There was no such atonement.
and you might well be held accountable for all you have said or done.

Blood on the cross negates your wrong doing.....how?

Theif, if my daughter gets a traffic violation and is required to pay a fine, it is quite possible for me to sacrifice of myself, and give my own money to pay her debt. Jesus died in order to pay our sin debt. And now all we need to do is believe that.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
(John 3:16)

 

[Sonofason]

So he sacrificed himself to whom or to what? He doesn't seem to mention anything about being a sacrifice. He says he will be killed. He doesn't say he will be a sacrifice. This seems to be a teaching that arose afterwards, so the question is if he was a sacrifice, to whom or to what was he sacrificed?

It was indeed a sacrifice. God's justice demands payment for sin. And as a result of His love for us, God provided the payment for our sins through his sacrifice of His Son.


"and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished"
(Romans 3:24-25) NIV

"being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;"
(Romans 3:24-25) ASV

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; "
(Romans 3:24-25) KJV

Propitiation - an atoning sacrifice
Propitiation - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

[Sonofason]

There was no such atonement.
and you might well be held accountable for all you have said or done.

Blood on the cross negates your wrong doing.....how?

Of course there was.

"and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished"
(Romans 3:24-25) NIV

 

[Twilight Hue]

Jesus Christ's atonement on the Cross was for mankind, because of our sin, we had been separated from God, and the only to bridge the gap between Gods perfection and humanity was for Jesus, being perfect and God, to die as a sacrifice.

But he didn't die according to Christians. That's the contention here. It cannot be a sacrifice in that respect. It's impossible.

 

[Twilight Hue]

First of all, I think you might need a proper understanding of the word sacrifice as it is intended from the context of scripture. A sacrifice is: "an act of giving up something valued for the sake of something else regarded as more important or worthy."

Out of His great love for us, God sacrificed His only Son, to die for the sake of sinners, in order to pay the debt and just price of death that everyone deserves to pay themselves for their own sins.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
(John 3:16)

But he didn't die. He was resurrected as people are taught.

 

[Pegg]

to what or to whom was Jesus sacrificed?

He sacrificed for mankind, and gave the value of his sacrifice to God to legally end the divine death penalty imposed on sinners.

Matt 20:28 Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister+ and to give his life* as a ransom in exchange for many.”

 

[Sonofason]

But he didn't die. He was resurrected as people are taught.

He did die. He remained dead for three days. After three days, God raised Him up. That is a wonderful quality God has. He can accomplish his will, and remain just and loving at the same time.

 

[Twilight Hue]

He did die. He remained dead for three days. After three days, God raised Him up. That is a wonderful quality God has. He can accomplish his will, and remain just and loving at the same time.

Then what's exactly the sacrifice?

 

[Thief]

Unlike most Christians, I don't believe that another man's death makes al of the bad things I've done.....go away.

On the contrary....there's all kinds of script that declares judgment.

Scapegoating was something taught and performed by Moses.
In his day, belief was held in a manner that sin....was tangible.
Moses, by means of touch would transfer the sin of the man unto a goat.
Someone appointed would then lead the animal to the wilderness and stake it there....to die.
The sin dies with the sacrifice.

The comparison runs through scripture....but as metaphor.

The Carpenter is my Inspiration.
His parables are the salvation.

The episode on the cross was an end He saw coming.
He knew His death would solidify all that He had done.

However, He saved no one by dying.
He saved all by His life and living.

 

[Hawkins]

to what or to whom was Jesus sacrificed?

God sets forth a plan to build an eternity called heaven. He thus specifies Law through which only the qualified will be allowed to enter heaven. Ever since the fall of Adam, humans cannot qualify themselves because they can't keep the specified Law. The only way to save them (to qualify them) is an alternative, that is, by God's Grace. In order to make "save through Grace" legitimate, God needs to make a self-sacrifice. God the Son Jesus Christ made that sacrifice such that legally/lawfully/legitimately humans can bypass the Law to enter heaven by God's Grace.

 

[outhouse]

to what or to whom was Jesus sacrificed?

His death in the temple fighting corruption, was perceived by many as a selfless sacrifice.

He gave all he had, his life, in an attempt to make everyone's life better. He failed in his attempt, yet people viewed his selfless sacrifice as worthy and true of heart. He was martyred for his own sacrifice.

 

[gsa]

This is in essence how I understand it:

God created humanity and set the first two people in the Garden of Eden, where they were instructed not to eat fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. They disobeyed, and as a result they were cast out of paradise, in the event described as the Fall of Man (incidentally, Genesis also suggests that they were cast out to prevent them from eating from the Tree of Life and achieving immortality see Gen 3:22). The Fall of Man was accompanied by something known as "Original Sin," which ranges from Reformation "total depravity" to some lesser inclination to evil, as in Eastern Orthodoxy, and also the introduction of death.

So now humanity dies, women experience pain in childbirth, man must work the soil, etcetera. Man's inclination to sin (again the Christian interpretation) is recorded throughout the Hebrew scriptures, from the first murder to the Flood to the destruction of the cities of the plain, Sodom and Gomorrah. As this human drama unfolds, there are a series of covenants, in the form of mutual contracts or promises, that God makes with individuals and collectives (Abrahamic, Mosaic, etc.).

Now this is where it gets very tricky because you have modern reinterpretations and some differences between the various sects, but in essence the role of Jesus as the Christ is to reconcile fallen man and God. Jesus can achieve this because of his status as the incarnation of God, more or less. And this reconciliation involves, among other things, the defeat of death. So Jesus was "sacrificed" to reconcile God and man, and offer the hope of eternal life, and the defeat of death.

So to review: God creates man, who disobeys God causing entry of sin into the world. God casts man out of Paradise, and he toils and dies as a result of this sin. To eradicate the power of sin, including death, God incarnates in a human being named Jesus, who is killed by crucifixion. After being killed, God waits three days and resurrects this Jesus character, therefore demonstrating power over death and sin, and promising eternal life to those who believe in the resurrected God King Jesus.

It would seem clear to me that God sacrifices himself, to reconcile himself to mankind, a division that he more or less caused by punishing Adam and Eve for their sin in the garden. Does this sound implausible and unnecessarily convoluted? I think so, but that is the essence of mainstream Christianity.

 

[nazz]

That maybe true to you, but that is how it is for my church, or the church I use to belong to, and lets face it, who is right and who is wrong, its anyone's guess.

It is certainly a belief but I have never heard anyone try to explain it biblically because they can't.

 

[Sonofason]

Then what's exactly the sacrifice?

If you think what Jesus did was no big deal, then by all means, come to my place so I can scourge you, shove thorns into your head, and nail you to a tree. If you still believe it is no big deal what Jesus did for you, then I will concede that what Jesus did was meaningless.

 

[Sonofason]

Unlike most Christians, I don't believe that another man's death makes al of the bad things I've done.....go away.

On the contrary....there's all kinds of script that declares judgment.

Scapegoating was something taught and performed by Moses.
In his day, belief was held in a manner that sin....was tangible.
Moses, by means of touch would transfer the sin of the man unto a goat.
Someone appointed would then lead the animal to the wilderness and stake it there....to die.
The sin dies with the sacrifice.

The comparison runs through scripture....but as metaphor.

The Carpenter is my Inspiration.
His parables are the salvation.

The episode on the cross was an end He saw coming.
He knew His death would solidify all that He had done.

However, He saved no one by dying.
He saved all by His life and living.

But can you support this idea with scripture?

 

[Thief]

But can you support this idea with scripture?

Any portion that warns of condemnation.

As long as you are breathing you are at risk.
Do not drop your guard.

And in that hour when you surrender your last breath....remember His words......

Where are you?.....why have you forsaken Me?

 

[gsa]

If you think what Jesus did was no big deal, then by all means, come to my place so I can scourge you, shove thorns into your head, and nail you to a tree. If you still believe it is no big deal what Jesus did for you, then I will concede that what Jesus did was meaningless.

Assuming Jesus was a man who was crucified, it was undoubtedly painful. But hundreds or thousands or perhaps millions suffered the same fate. None of these deaths carry cosmic significance.

 

[psychoslice]

It is certainly a belief but I have never heard anyone try to explain it biblically because they can't.

Well now you have.

 

[nazz]

Well now you have.

Where?

 

[Twilight Hue]

If you think what Jesus did was no big deal, then by all means, come to my place so I can scourge you, shove thorns into your head, and nail you to a tree. If you still believe it is no big deal what Jesus did for you, then I will concede that what Jesus did was meaningless.

So the sacrifice by Jesus was centered on intense pain and torture? It can't be death in light he's regarded as being alive.