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Did Jesus claim to be God?

may

Well-Known Member
Popeyesays said:
I think you have to look at that passage grammatically: "Before Abraham WAS, I am." Notice the two tenses. Before Abraham had an identity, the Word was with God. I would extrapolate this to say before Jesus existed the WORD was. Meaning the human identity of the Station of the Word is not not the issue.

Regards,
Scott
Yes i agree that sounds more inline with what Jesus meant . Jesus existed in the heavens with his father before abraham was, Jesus was telling it as it was.
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god

This one was in [the] beginning with God. john 1;1-2



Joh​
1:1—"and the Word was a god (godlike; divine)"





Gr., κα
ι θεος ην ο λόγος (kai the·os´ en ho lo´gos)

(John 1:18) No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him

YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am. John 14;28

(Genesis 1:26) And God went on to say: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness ........... it seems to me that the one that God is talking to here is non other than Jesus in the heavens , thats where he was before he came to earth .....with his father in heaven

(Genesis 3:22) And Jehovah God went on to say: "Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad ................and here also he is speaking to jesus

 

Endless

Active Member
ALERT MISTRANSLATION - the Greek cannot be translated as 'the word was a God' - everyone here will tell you that. The Greek has to be translated 'the word was God'. That's pretty clear to me, and it's also the reason that your Bible has those words altered - because they have to be to fit in with the JW theology.

Put it this way, Jesus never explictly says in the Bible 'I am God'. Right from the very start where he is to be called 'Emmanuel, meaning God with us'. To when he states, 'Before Abraham was, I AM' - he doesn't state, 'before Abraham was, i was' but he states 'I AM'. I am, is in the present, it's a clear indication that he was saying he was God. Right back to when God told Moses to tell the Israelites that 'I AM' has sent him.

Personally i would rather believe the testimonies of those who lived with Jesus for around three years and were taught by him, than us trying to prove something from only the recorded words we have Jesus saying. If John says that Jesus was claiming to be God, then that's definately good enough for me. The other letters in the gospels also agree that all the early Christians considered Jesus to be God.
Now, if Jesus was not God, i think he would have clearly set the record straight so the church wasn't going to be wrong from the very start.
The fact that someone who was as close to God as Jesus was and did not point thomas to worship not himself but God - when Thomas worshipped and called Jesus God, shows that either he was on a power trip and stealing God's glory or he actually was God.
 

Anastasios

Member
What Jesus thought was simply how to find the god inside of us and to become sons of god in spiritual concept. He found the god inside of himself just like the other prophets did, but we can also find the god in our soul by following the path of it, which Jesus (pbuh), Muhammad (pbuh) or other prophets (pbut) followed perfectly. Of course to deserve a prophetship is something different (actually only God knows who will be prophet), since prophets were/are/will be sinless in my view. But Christians took this concept as if God is only placed only in the person of Christ. That is what I call "injustice" in some details. This path is open to every one, god sent revelations to his/our prophets, and those revelations were recorded. So we have the same opportunity, heaven is open to everyone, provided that we should fullfill the expectations. But in any case God is one, and he was/is/will be noone in the earth as a person.
 

Anastasios

Member
And assuredly, We have created man and We know what his mind whispers to him, and We are nearer to him than even his jugular vein. (Quran 50:17)
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Endless said:
Put it this way, Jesus never explictly says in the Bible 'I am God'. Right from the very start where he is to be called 'Emmanuel, meaning God with us'. To when he states, 'Before Abraham was, I AM' - he doesn't state, 'before Abraham was, i was' but he states 'I AM'. I am, is in the present, it's a clear indication that he was saying he was God. Right back to when God told Moses to tell the Israelites that 'I AM' has sent him.

QUOTE]

Or He could have been saying: Before Abraham was God. Just to remind the Jewish priests that the source of revelation to the Hebrews was not Abraham, but God.
At least you avoid the pitfall of many Christians who think everytime Jesus quotes the words "I am" he is claiming Godship. I often thought that if He had ever said "I am going to the bathroom." there would be Christians claiming that is a claim to the Godhead.

I believe that Jesus could well have meant that He was sent by God, just like Abraham was sent by God - or Moses. But Christians will not allow Moses to forward a claim to the Godhead by saying "I AM sent me." If one usage meant that, then the others must have meant that as well.

Regards,
Scott
 

Smoke

Done here.
Anastasios said:
What Jesus thought was simply how to find the god inside of us and to become sons of god in spiritual concept. He found the god inside of himself just like the other prophets did, but we can also find the god in our soul by following the path of it, which Jesus (pbuh), Muhammad (pbuh) or other prophets (pbut) followed perfectly.
You must spread some Karma around before giving it to Anastasios again.

 

lunamoth

Will to love
popeyesays said:
Or He could have been saying: Before Abraham was God. Just to remind the Jewish priests that the source of revelation to the Hebrews was not Abraham, but God.
...
I believe that Jesus could well have meant that He was sent by God, just like Abraham was sent by God - or Moses. But Christians will not allow Moses to forward a claim to the Godhead by saying "I AM sent me." If one usage meant that, then the others must have meant that as well.
I'm not sure this will be fully consistent, or hold up through the various translations, but I seem to recall that whenever God called on someone like Moses or told a prophet like Isaiah to speak on His behalf, he calls them and they answer "here I am, Lord." Yet, even though Jesus uses I AM, seeming to refer to Himself, he never responds as one called saying "here I am, Lord."

Not sure if this makes sense, or as I said, even holds up. Just thought it was interesting.

peace,
Laurie


I often thought that if He had ever said "I am going to the bathroom." there would be Christians claiming that is a claim to the Godhead.

Regards,
Scott
:biglaugh:
 

Anastasios

Member
Anastasios said:
What Jesus thought was simply how to find the god inside of us and to become sons of god in spiritual concept.
Just a simple correction (I realized late): "thought" should be "taught"

Sorry for that.

Regards
 

BUDDY

User of Aspercreme
Yes, Jesus did proclaim himself to be God, and so did the apostles, prophets and angels. Here are the passages that I believe show this. I posted this in another thread, but since there are three threads about the same subject, I will put my evidence here as well.

John.1

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
[9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[15] John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
[16] And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
[17] For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.


John 8
[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The term "I am" is the exact term that God used in Exodus 3:14 in reference to Himself! Jesus professed to be the eternal God of the Bible.

John 10
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
[30] I and my Father are one.

Who else is able to give eternal life except God? Only God can, and Jesus himself says that they are one in the same. Can't get much plainer than that.

Matthew 28
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

If Jesus Christ isn't Deity, then why did He include Himself in the Holy Trinity?

John 14
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

He again equates himself with God.

That's all for now, but there are still more if you actually need it.
 

BUDDY

User of Aspercreme
Popeyesays said:
I believe that Jesus could well have meant that He was sent by God, just like Abraham was sent by God - or Moses. But Christians will not allow Moses to forward a claim to the Godhead by saying "I AM sent me." If one usage meant that, then the others must have meant that as well.
And yet you give no Biblical proof for your claim. You simply give opinion based on what evidence? No other prophet or apostle claimed to be the same as Jesus claimed to be. He was distinct and special, seperate from all other teachers because he was "the only begotten of the father". As you can see from the verses I quoted above, he claims His deity and proves it through His power, His works and His authority. You can make all of the suppositions you want without proof, but if you expect anyone to believe you, you should back it up with some Bible.
 

Nimaj

Member
First off, for non-trinitarians (Oneness, etc...) if God claims to be Jesus, then Jesus is claiming therein to be himself (God) therefore, in Acts 9: 4-5, when God says unto Saul "Why Persecutest thou me?" and "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:" he is Jesus claiming to be himself (GOD), which goes in line with John 14:9 when Jesus says : "he that hath seen me hath seen the father;" Therefore, Jesus claims on multiple occasions to be God.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Nimaj said:
First off, for non-trinitarians (Oneness, etc...) if God claims to be Jesus, then Jesus is claiming therein to be himself (God) therefore, in Acts 9: 4-5, when God says unto Saul "Why Persecutest thou me?" and "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:" he is Jesus claiming to be himself (GOD), which goes in line with John 14:9 when Jesus says : "he that hath seen me hath seen the father;" Therefore, Jesus claims on multiple occasions to be God.
This is not within the criteria - its not in the gospels, its not from the mouth of Christ while He lived on this world, and it is a dream or vision seen by a single man = Saul of Tarsus. None of Saul's companions saw or heard the vision.

Regards,
Scott
 

Anastasios

Member
BUDDY said:
Yes, Jesus did proclaim himself to be God, and so did the apostles, prophets and angels. Here are the passages that I believe show this. I posted this in another thread, but since there are three threads about the same subject, I will put my evidence here as well.

John.1

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
[9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[15] John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
[16] And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
[17] For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

John 8
[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The term "I am" is the exact term that God used in Exodus 3:14 in reference to Himself! Jesus professed to be the eternal God of the Bible.

John 10
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
[30] I and my Father are one.

Who else is able to give eternal life except God? Only God can, and Jesus himself says that they are one in the same. Can't get much plainer than that.

Matthew 28
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

If Jesus Christ isn't Deity, then why did He include Himself in the Holy Trinity?

John 14
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

He again equates himself with God.

That's all for now, but there are still more if you actually need it.
First at all we should take into consideration that the Gospel of John was written around 90-110 AD, which is the latest one and Christians mostly use this Gospel for sonship and Godhead of Christ. John 1.1-17 simply tells us how the grace and truth of GOD came to the earth through Jesus. This is quite normal, he is a prophet, and he taught people how to use properly the law given to Moses. He himself describes it as (Matthew 5.17-20):
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
As to Matthew 28, I should say the doctrine of Trinity was not present in his time, Trinity is a later invention. The earliest Gospel is Mark, and we don't have it there, even its last 12 verses are forgery. We don't have a similar section in other gospels, as well. So the last verses of Matthew seems to me doubtful, since it is fully against his whole idea, in which he never told about trinity.

John 14.9-10 (and others also) : I understand here again the intervention of God in Human nature, in which the essence was already put from the creation of human onwords. Again this essence cannot be something special for Jesus, but for all human kind. If we don't have the same essence, how can we fallow the path given by God through prophets without having it? Isn't God just?
 

sanraal

Member
To my opinion he was the Son of God. He said a lot of things that referred that the Father is greater than him and that Jesus did nothing out of his own.

Still Jesus did everything the Father wanted. He made no mistakes, no sins. That is why he was 'transparent'. People could directly see God through him. If you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father since Jesus manifests the Father's desires 100%. The Holy Spirit, the Divine Spirit runs 100% freely through him (which is why Jesus did nothing out of his own).

That is why he said, 'I am the Truth, the Way and Life, no one comes to the Father but through me'. Jesus was certainly not egoistic. He said this due to his transparency. He only pointed out the highest Way, the way that gives life, the way that carries positive fruits. After all, God is all in all. He did not come, for example, to change the law of moses, just to fulfill it by the heart. And he gave many examples.

Looking at things in this context, Jesus is the son of God and 'the Way', but not the only Way/ religion/ belief. Any belief that teaches positivity and spiritual growth works towards the Divine source.

Chris
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
sanraal said:
To my opinion he was the Son of God. He said a lot of things that referred that the Father is greater than him and that Jesus did nothing out of his own.

Still Jesus did everything the Father wanted. He made no mistakes, no sins. That is why he was 'transparent'. People could directly see God through him. If you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father since Jesus manifests the Father's desires 100%. The Holy Spirit, the Divine Spirit runs 100% freely through him (which is why Jesus did nothing out of his own).

That is why he said, 'I am the Truth, the Way and Life, no one comes to the Father but through me'. Jesus was certainly not egoistic. He said this due to his transparency. He only pointed out the highest Way, the way that gives life, the way that carries positive fruits. After all, God is all in all. He did not come, for example, to change the law of moses, just to fulfill it by the heart. And he gave many examples.

Looking at things in this context, Jesus is the son of God and 'the Way', but not the only Way/ religion/ belief. Any belief that teaches positivity and spiritual growth works towards the Divine source.

Chris
:dan: :clap :dan:

Scott
 

Anastasios

Member
sanraal said:
To my opinion he was the Son of God. He said a lot of things that referred that the Father is greater than him and that Jesus did nothing out of his own.

Still Jesus did everything the Father wanted. He made no mistakes, no sins. That is why he was 'transparent'. People could directly see God through him. If you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father since Jesus manifests the Father's desires 100%. The Holy Spirit, the Divine Spirit runs 100% freely through him (which is why Jesus did nothing out of his own).

That is why he said, 'I am the Truth, the Way and Life, no one comes to the Father but through me'. Jesus was certainly not egoistic. He said this due to his transparency. He only pointed out the highest Way, the way that gives life, the way that carries positive fruits. After all, God is all in all. He did not come, for example, to change the law of moses, just to fulfill it by the heart. And he gave many examples.

Looking at things in this context, Jesus is the son of God and 'the Way', but not the only Way/ religion/ belief. Any belief that teaches positivity and spiritual growth works towards the Divine source.

Chris
I agree
(but not the Son in literal sense:) )
 

sanraal

Member
Thanks :)

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God. (Mark 10:18)

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
- Jesus is in the Father since he is in the body of Christ/ God.
- The Father is in Jesus since the Holy Spirit runs freely through him.
- The Father and Jesus thus are One. Through Jesus, you see the Father.


"Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak are not spoken of myself; it is the Father who lives in me accomplishing his works.
(John 14:10)

Bowing before Jesus is not bowing before the person Jesus but before his father, God. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58)



- This is a well known part in the Bible after which the Jews tried to stone him because he said he was God. The phrase ‘I am’ in the Bible is something only God says. However in the whole New Testament, Jesus never explicitely said he is God. He said he was ‘as God’, meaning the Spirit of God floated through him but not God. He was the Son. Jesus too existed before time, before the creation of the world but he resided in God. He was not God himself.
- Through him God spoke. The Jews confused God’s voice that was speaking through him at that moment, with Jesus, thus saying Jesus claimed himself to be God. This was blasphemy. After all, someone who is completely transparent radiating Gods light 100% shows the way to God. He then, in this way, is ‘the light, the truth and life’.


14 Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I do testify on my own behalf, my testimony can be verified, because I know where I came from and where I am going. (John 18:14)

- Jesus did not testify on his own behalf but he only did it because the Father gave life in him.

 

BUDDY

User of Aspercreme
If Jesus was nothing mroe than mortal man, a prophet of God, then he could not have been the fulfillment of the prophecies and the messia that was promised. He could not have been the perfect sacrifice for sin. If you do not believe that he is the son of God, as Peter confessed him to be, then there is no salvation from sin for you. I have given ample Biblical evidence for the fact that Jesus was the Son of God and was deity himself. If you do not accept it, well that is your decision. As for me, I have nothing further to add tot his discussion so I will bow out.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
BUDDY said:
If Jesus was nothing mroe than mortal man, a prophet of God, then he could not have been the fulfillment of the prophecies and the messia that was promised. He could not have been the perfect sacrifice for sin. If you do not believe that he is the son of God, as Peter confessed him to be, then there is no salvation from sin for you. I have given ample Biblical evidence for the fact that Jesus was the Son of God and was deity himself. If you do not accept it, well that is your decision. As for me, I have nothing further to add tot his discussion so I will bow out.
One can believe Jesus is the Son of God without believing there is any DNA involved in the matter. He's not the progeny of God, and He is not God, Himself.

Substitutionary atonement does not float my boat either, salvation comes from God. The Biblical evidence given requires one to interpret the verses in a way that does not come easy for many.

Regards,
Scott
 

Smoke

Done here.
BUDDY said:
If Jesus was nothing mroe than mortal man, a prophet of God, then he could not have been the fulfillment of the prophecies and the messia that was promised. He could not have been the perfect sacrifice for sin. If you do not believe that he is the son of God, as Peter confessed him to be, then there is no salvation from sin for you. I have given ample Biblical evidence for the fact that Jesus was the Son of God and was deity himself. If you do not accept it, well that is your decision. As for me, I have nothing further to add tot his discussion so I will bow out.
I understand that people may have other reasons for believing Jesus is God, but I'm not interested in disputing those reasons. The purpose of this thread is to discuss whether Jesus himself, while on earth during the period between his birth and his death, claimed to be God. That's all.
 
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