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Afterlife

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Atheist_Dave said:
Hey everyone, I just wanted to get an idea of what everyone thinks is going to happen to them after they die, and why. I have never seen sense in a rewarded afterlife as it gets in the way of today, and also I just dont believe in anything spiritual or omnipotent.

Anyways I'll shut up now, opinions and beliefs please x
Afterlife, eh?
Well, it is not like anyone can prove a dang thing they are saying, so I ought to be safe.

I have no use for heavens or hells, Jesus or Gods awaiting the arrival of an unworthy self. I perceive the after death realms as being plasticine in nature. In other words, they will mold TO the individual in whatever way is desired. I also have no use with the thought of rewards and have no interest in any kind of spiritual pecking order.

What will happen to me? Well, I am still torn between being met by my dearly departed dog, MaXx or a simple sunrise. Dunno which really. I know, MaXx greeting me and taking me someplace to see an incredible sunrise.
 

ch'ang

artist in training
Even if there is a god, I will not grovel for forgiveness from him
Bravo, frubals to you

Your sin is not trivial, Christ was willing to take the punishment it deserves for you so on the day when you stand befor God your sin has already been dealt with.
So if my sin is already dealt with, why would there be any reason to send someone to hell?

" Where does that belief come from maggie? Any reason or just a delusion?"

Perhaps it comes from the same place your non-belief comes from ? Or may be your own delusion? Why do you have to be arrogant and cut down others its that an example of atheistic ethics at work? Does it make you feel good and immportant?

You, I and the whole race do not know whether or not there is an after life, so accusing some one of delusion because she has ideas about it, is just arrogance, whistling in the dark and plain obnoxious. This behavior by the way also attempts to cover up fear and insecurity.

Relax do not be sacred is all right to doubt yourself! What is not right is to cut down others for no reason at all.
Dave said that because to us atheists whenever anyone starts saying something like "I think were all energy." it just seems silly because 1. Shows a misunderstanding of what energy is 2. Is based on nothing ( I assume ) but personal convictions, whereas christians usally believe because they are told to and follow the pack mentality that is common among humans.

Personally, if I had to live in Heaven for eternity I would spend all of my time trying to find a way to cease my existance. I would also like to add most beleif in an afterlife is based on the asumption that life is special (most people only include human life ) and somehow different then the stuff that makes it up and the matter around it, life is simply another man-made classifaction and an arbitrary one at that.
 

Steve

Active Member
Steve said:
Your sin is not trivial, Christ was willing to take the punishment it deserves for you so on the day when you stand befor God your sin has already been dealt with.
ch'ang said:
So if my sin is already dealt with, why would there be any reason to send someone to hell?
There wouldnt be any reason too, thats the point in the Cross - Christ made atonement for your sin - but if you refuse to accept his sacrifice and repent of your sin then Christs sacrifice wont apply to you because you have rejected it, you are left to pay for your sin yourself.
God offers us salvation, but he does say we need to repent and turn to him to receive it.
Its like someone in a aeroplane thats going to crash, the parachute is provided but if you instead say i dont want it it wont do you any good when the plane comes down.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Steve said:
There wouldnt be any reason too, thats the point in the Cross - Christ made atonement for your sin - but if you refuse to accept his sacrifice and repent of your sin then Christs sacrifice wont apply to you because you have rejected it, you are left to pay for your sin yourself.
God offers us salvation, but he does say we need to repent and turn to him to receive it.
Its like someone in a aeroplane thats going to crash, the parachute is provided but if you instead say i dont want it it wont do you any good when the plane comes down.
You think that God hasn't fixed the faulty plane. I think salvation means that God has fixed the faulty plane. A parachute is a moot point.
 

Steve

Active Member
sojourner said:
You think that God hasn't fixed the faulty plane. I think salvation means that God has fixed the faulty plane. A parachute is a moot point.
You can believe that if you want, its not biblical though.
The bible tells us repeatedly that God has provided atonement and that Jesus stands at the door and knocks, we have to open it - we have to accept his gift.
It repeatedly says we need to repent and put our faith in Christ.
It repeatedly says that the unbelievers etc, those who reject God and what he has done for us will spend eternity in Hell.

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.Hebrews 10:26-31

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Revelation 21:8
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Steve said:
You can believe that if you want, its not biblical though.
The bible tells us repeatedly that God has provided atonement and that Jesus stands at the door and knocks, we have to open it - we have to accept his gift.
It repeatedly says we need to repent and put our faith in Christ.
It repeatedly says that the unbelievers etc, those who reject God and what he has done for us will spend eternity in Hell.
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.Hebrews 10:26-31

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Revelation 21:8
OK. Let's look at it literalistically for a moment. Your last verse citation says, "This is the second death." Yet, we're told elsewhere that "it is appointed once for us to die." Hmmm...

Have you ever told a lie? Bet you have! The Bible plainly says that your place "will be in the fiery lake of burning sulphur."
Hmmm...

The Bible also says repeatedly that sin no longer binds us. By his death, Jesus destroyed death (means it no longer exists).

Which is better? To believe in a God that loves us enough to save us, even when we don't deserve it (grace), or in a God who is ambivalent enough to let us roast in hell because we do deserve it (judgment)?
 

Steve

Active Member
sojourner said:
OK. Let's look at it literalistically for a moment. Your last verse citation says, "This is the second death." Yet, we're told elsewhere that "it is appointed once for us to die." Hmmm...
Yes and it tells us what it means by the second death, "their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Its making a distinction between our physical death and the second death, although im sure you already knew this as its plain to see and are instead just trying to be deliberatly vague.


sojourner said:
Have you ever told a lie? Bet you have! The Bible plainly says that your place "will be in the fiery lake of burning sulphur."
Hmmm...

The Bible also says repeatedly that sin no longer binds us. By his death, Jesus destroyed death (means it no longer exists).
Yes i have lied, and my destination would be hell if it wasnt for Christ. When the bible says sin no longer binds us it was writen to Christians, those who had accepted Christ as their saviour.


sojourner said:
Which is better? To believe in a God that loves us enough to save us, even when we don't deserve it (grace), or in a God who is ambivalent enough to let us roast in hell because we do deserve it (judgment)?
Again-
The fact is you have got to ignore huge parts of what Christ and the bible teach to claim that everyone will be saved and noone is going to hell.
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:26-31

God does loves us but he also gave us the ability to choose if we want to turn back to him or reject what he has done for us.
I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. Revelation 22:21-23

It is so clearly taught that not everyone is going to be saved, you simply impose what you want to be true rather then reading the Word and finding out what it really teaches.
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' Matthew 7:21-23

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Mathew 7:13-14

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. John 3:18

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Revelation 22:14-15

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11

 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Steve said:
Yes and it tells us what it means by the second death, "their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Its making a distinction between our physical death and the second death, although im sure you already knew this as its plain to see and are instead just trying to be deliberatly vague.

The Bible says that it is appointed once for humans to die. Then, this passage talks about a second death. Is that observation in any way vague? A literalistic reading will plainly show that the manner of death is not defined -- either "physical" or "spiritual." How do you reconcile this incongruity? Could it be that a literalistic reading of the highly metaphorical Revelation material constitutes misinterpretation?


Yes i have lied, and my destination would be hell if it wasnt for Christ. When the bible says sin no longer binds us it was writen to Christians, those who had accepted Christ as their saviour.

No. That proviso is not found in the passage you cited. Remember, we're reading literalistically here. You have lied. Your place is hell. Period. Again, it doesn't work when you read metaphorical material literalistically.

Who says that the Bible was written just to Christians? I thought the Bible was for all humanity...
So...when the Bible says words of condemnation, those words are written for unbelievers only, and when the Bible says words of mercy, those words are for Christians only? What is that?! If you apply the condemnation to others, you have to apply it to yourself, too. If you apply the mercy to yourself, you have to apply it to others, too. We're all in this kettle of soup called "humanity" together, my friend!


Again-
The fact is you have got to ignore huge parts of what Christ and the bible teach to claim that everyone will be saved and noone is going to hell.
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:26-31

God does loves us but he also gave us the ability to choose if we want to turn back to him or reject what he has done for us.
I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. Revelation 22:21-23

It is so clearly taught that not everyone is going to be saved, you simply impose what you want to be true rather then reading the Word and finding out what it really teaches.
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' Matthew 7:21-23

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Mathew 7:13-14

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. John 3:18

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Revelation 22:14-15

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11

The Bible teaches that there is no longer worldly division -- slave/free, male/female, Jew/Greek...believer/unbeliever...for all are one in Christ Jesus. God loves everyone equally and has saved humanity through the sacrifice of Christ.

Oh, wait...That part must have been written only for Christians...I guess the "woe is me, for I am a man of unclean lips" part must have been written only to the not-Christians...

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear."
 

ashai

Active Member
Ushya Chasng

First regardless of his opinion, Atheist Dave has no right to insult any one withouy cause. Second considering Quantum and specifically Super String Theory, matter might just indeed be solid energy and energy, of which light certainly is a form, and not matter might indeed be the ground of all being. Its a valid assumption and not ignorant at all. Indeed if anything was ignorant was Dave's allusion to delusion, specially considering that much of the ground of materialist's 'knowledge' is shifting like sand as it tries to deal with the New Physics.

Ushta Te
Ashai
 

Anastasios

Member
According to idea of Mirza Gulam Ahmed, which is the most likely one for me,
the life in the hereafter would not be material. Instead, it would be of a spiritual nature of which we can only visualise certain aspects. We cannot determine precisely how things will take shape. One of the salient features of his vision of the hereafter concerns the soul giving birth to another rarer entity, which would occupy the same position in relation to the soul as the soul occupies in relation to our carnal existence here on earth. This birth of a soul from within the soul will be related to the sort of life that we have lived here on earth. If our lives here are spent in submission to the will of God and in accordance with His commands, our tastes gradually become cultured and attuned to enjoying spiritual pleasures as against carnal pleasures. Within the soul a sort of embryonic soul begins to take shape. New faculties are born and new tastes are acquired, in which those accustomed to carnal pleasures find no enjoyment. These new types of refined human beings can find the content of their heart. Sacrifice instead of the usurpation of others' rights becomes enjoyable. Forgiveness takes the upper hand of revenge, and love with no selfish motive is born like a second nature, replacing all relationships that have ulterior motives. Thus, one can say a new soul within the soul is in the offing.
All these projections regarding the development of the soul are inferences drawn from various verses of the Holy Quran, yet the exact nature of future events cannot be precisely determined. One can only say that something along these lines would take place, the details of which lie beyond the reach of human understanding. There are certain aspects of the new life which need to be discussed. The concept of hell and heaven in Islam is completely different from the normally held view. Hell and heaven are not two different places occupying separate time and space. According to the Holy Quran, the heaven covers the entire universe. 'Where would be hell then?' enquired some of the companions of the Holy Prophet. 'At the same place', was the answer, 'but you do not have the faculty to understand their coexistence.' That is to say in ordinary human terms, they may seem to occupy the same time-space, but in reality because they belong to different dimensions, so they will coexist without interfering and inter-relating with each other.

But what is the meaning of heavenly bliss, the tortures of the fire of hell? In answer to this question, the Promised Messiah (as) has illustrated the issue in the following terms: If a man is almost dying of thirst, and is otherwise healthy, cool water can provide him such deeply satisfying pleasure as cannot be derived from the ordinary experience of drinking water, or even the most delicious drink of his choice. If a man is thirsty and hungry as well, and he needs an immediate source of energy, a chilled bunch of grapes can provide him with such deep satisfaction as is not experienced by the same in ordinary circumstances. But the pre-requisite for these pleasures is good health. Now visualise a very sick man, who is nauseating and trying to vomit whatever liquid is left in him, and is at the verge of death through dehydration. Offer him a glass of cool water, or a chilled bunch of grapes, then not to mention his accepting them, a mere glance of them would create a state of revulsion and absolute abhorrence in him.

continue on: http://www.alislam.org/books/study-of-islam/life-after-death.html
 

Smoke

Done here.
Steve said:
Its like someone in a aeroplane thats going to crash, the parachute is provided but if you instead say i dont want it it wont do you any good when the plane comes down.
Nah, that's not what it's like at all.

It's like there are these people running around saying, "The plane is going to crash! The plane is going to crash! Quick! Put on your parachutes!" And to everybody who will listen they give a parachute. The ones who are convinced strap on the parachutes, and then their leaders say, "You also need a helmet! Quick put on these helmets!" So all the followers put on helmets. And so it goes. Knee pads, elbow pads, shin guards. They learn how to deploy the parachutes when the time comes. They talk about how foolish the people are who won't wear parachutes and protective gear and take instructions. Whatever they do, they keep those parachutes and all that protective gear on at all times, because they know the plane is going to crash any minute.

The non-believers scoff at them, and they say, "You'll be laughing out of the other side of your face when the plane crashes! It'll be too late for a parachute then!"

And so they live the rest of their lives that way: with parachutes strapped to their backs, covered in protective gear, defending their beliefs. What they don't know is, they don't have real parachutes, just backpacks filled with handkerchiefs and horseshoes. But it's okay: The plane never crashes. Truth is, none of them are even on a plane at all.
 
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