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Afterlife

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Atheist_Dave, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    Maybe the idea of being forgiven is unappealing to you because you think God considers your sin trivial. This however from a Christian perspective is madness.
    If you want to get an idea of how seriously God considers sin, just picture Christ being tortured and crucified or people in hell.
    Your sin is not trivial, Christ was willing to take the punishment it deserves for you so on the day when you stand befor God your sin has already been dealt with.
     
  2. Hacker

    Hacker Well-Known Member

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    I definitely believe in the afterlife, and I don't think you have to be a "Christian" to get there. And hell, well I do believe in evil but I don't believe our loving God is going to send half of the world like Hidnus, Jews, Buddists etc to hell because they aren't christians. I'm also not denying chrisianity but everyone percieves things differently and I think it's just all a learning experience, life after life till we finnaly reach our "purpose." There are children being brought up in other religions and that's ALL they know. You could go over to India and preach the word of Christ and they will look at you like your nuts. Do you think it's their fault, I don't.:tsk: Love each other, Love God, emulate Christ, the Buddist and just try to be a good person and in my opinion, your there in the wonderful afterlife we all are waiting for.:bounce Anyhow, I've read books about the topic of Near death experiences and the name of one of them is "Life After Life" by Raymond Moody. It's very well written and I believe it.
     
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  3. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    I haven't done anything bad, Steve. But according to the Ten Commandment, I have already broken the 1st commandment. I haven't worshipped any other gods, but I also haven't worshipped him. The thing is, forgiving a sin can only by the person you've wronged, and forgiving yourself. If a person you've wronged won't forgive you, then you will have to live with it. If you done something to wrong to yourself, then only you can forgive yourself.

    As to a god forgiving me. That's not acceptable. A person must accept responsibility his or her own actions, not take the easy road out. Even if there is a god, I will not grovel for forgiveness from him. I will do it my own, on my two feet as a man. That may sound prideful, and some would consider pride as a sin, but begging for forgiveness towards anyone is out of the question.

    To me, how I treat god is inconsequential. How I treat another human being is far more important than one who probably don't exist and who is never around when people needs him.
     
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  4. ashai

    ashai Active Member

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    Ushta Atheist Dave

    you said:
    " Where does that belief come from maggie? Any reason or just a delusion?"

    Perhaps it comes from the same place your non-belief comes from ? Or may be your own delusion? Why do you have to be arrogant and cut down others its that an example of atheistic ethics at work? Does it make you feel good and immportant?

    You, I and the whole race do not know whether or not there is an after life, so accusing some one of delusion because she has ideas about it, is just arrogance, whistling in the dark and plain obnoxious. This behavior by the way also attempts to cover up fear and insecurity.

    Relax do not be sacred is all right to doubt yourself! What is not right is to cut down others for no reason at all.

    May you perceive the Loving Good Mind and its gifts!

    Ushta te
    Ashai
     
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  5. c0da

    c0da Active Member

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    All but the lucky, enlightened few are reborn into one of the Samsaric realms.
     
  6. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    Im sure you have broken more then just the first commandment, eg lied, stolen, etc Christ even said looking with lust is adultery in Gods eyes.
    In this sense we have all sinned, we have all done things wrong.

    Actully no - if this is Gods world then he can set the rules, if he says dont lie to each other, dont steal from each other, dont commit adultery with another persons wife or husband and yet you do it anyway you sin against the person and also God, you show a disregard for the manner in which the creator wants his creation to work, you say no i will do things my way, ill lie when i want, or steal - whatever etc.
    Your sin is against God, and he knows ever thing you have ever done.


    You can accept responsibility right now if you want, accept that your a sinner and that if a holy God were to judge you right now you would be guilty. If after accepting this you can then decide your next course of action, either say "ok deal with me as you would a sinner, a rebel who hasnt done what you wanted and was to proud to ask for forgivness and even shunned the sacrifice Christ made for me" or say "God i am a sinner, and i need salvation - i believe the crucifixion of Christ can release me from my sentance to hell because Christ took the punishment i deserved"
    God does love you, Jesus has the nail holes in his hands and feet to prove it but he is also a holy God and to reject his sacrifice, mercy and love would be one of the greatest sins of all.
     
  7. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    You don't even know me, Steve, so to call someone a thief, adulterer and liar, is presumptuous and very offensive.

    You may have lied and stolen, but don't place your sins upon me, Steve. Do Christian always accuse people of sins they haven't committed? Have you forgotten that the bible saying "not to bear false witness"? You should stop sinning through false accusation of lying and stealing. I'd call what you are doing as lying. If I have sins, then it is my problem, not yours, but don't your sins to mine.
     
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  8. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    This strikes me as very heavy-handed proselytizing. You should tone it down.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  9. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Why ask, then?

    My religion, like most others is very silent on what the next life might be, other than promising that it will be beyond anything we might understand while we live.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  10. Ponder the Box

    Ponder the Box New Member

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    I went to a catholic school for about a decade. It certainly was the most educational yet terrifying experience of my life so far - I can remember lying in bed many a night and literally shivering with fear at the prospect of being stuck in heaven for eternity... The idea of being somewhere (even the 'best' place in the universe) FOREVER was horrible. I'll not even mention hell, my other choice ;).

    As for the afterlife? I don't think the human race is conscious enough to fully understand the universe we live in (any scientist will agree I think) and my personal opinion is that it is extremely presumptuous of us to create (with no real evidence, as far as I can see) a vision of how the universe/life works since on a worldwide and historical scale different beliefs often seem to breed intolerance.

    I suppose in a nutshell - I have no idea, I don't think it's possible to know and I would rather be able to live my life living in uncertainty than to have lived a lie only to be rather severely disappointed when I pass away.

    Oh, these thoughts are in no way absolute - They are my opinions and unlike a lot of other religions don't cancel out the possibility of other people being right about their beliefs...



    Cheers!
     
  11. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    I don't know if heaven or hell exist, or that of reincarnation. One thing for certain is that I prefer to be no afterlife. When this life ends, then I want it ended for good. Heaven, hell and reincarnations just don't appeal to me.

    I simply don't care for rewards in heaven/paradise. That's why I dislike Christianity and Islam.

    This is where I seems more atheist than agnostic.

    The problem with heaven is that if it doesn't exist, and there are no proof of its existence, then people are living under false hope and the biggest con to ever exist. To me, the theists is like a horse pulling a cart, with a carrot hanging suspended before the horse's eyes; in sight but out of reach.

    I don't like being prod with the unreachable. I'd prefer to run freely.

    Run freely doesn't mean that I free to break the laws or do stupid things like - do drug, smoke, getting drunk, have orgies, or cheat. I do have a moral code that is not religious, and yet it is far stronger/binding than many Christians or Muslims.

    So I don't worship god or gods, and I don't pray. So what? As it can be seen following a religion doesn't necessarily make a person good. I don't need hell to frighten me to be good; that simply use fear to coerce. I refuses to rule by fear, and that what a lot of religion is about - fear. Fear of the unknown. Fear of death. Fear of hell. Fear of god.

    If God uses fear, then what so loving or just about him?
     
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  12. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    Your presupposition hear is that fear is always a bad thing yet i certainly disagree. Not all fear is bad, it can be a very helpful thing and a great motivator - the issue is if the fear is reasonable.
    We have penalties that come with our laws eg you brake the law you get the punishment, the fear of the punishment is a deterant and so it should be - thats one of the points of having consequences.

    If God truly is holy and righteous and hates sin then a sinner should fear him - When Christ said things like "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." (Luke 12:4-5) He was trying to warn people, not because he just wanted them to be afraid but because it was for their own good, he wanted people to turn to God and repent, he knew that he would later provide the atonement they needed.

    It comes down to wether or not you believe Christ really did raise from the dead after making atonement for you, if he did then then it would be reasonable to take the things he said seriously. If you dont believe he did and you instead belive the apostles made the resurection story up but were still willing to die for it and you dont believe in a creator who cares about your sin then of course it dosnt make sense to fear hell.
     
  13. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    Steve. You may not break the law out of fear, but I don't. I don't break the laws because it is the right thing to do.

    I need no God to do what is right. I don't need you to tell me what to do what is right. I especially don't need no religion to tell me what to do what is right.

    I don't want to be rasied from the dead. I don't believe in resurrection. I respects Jesus' teachings about love and compassion, which is actually universal in most religion, but I don't believe in this business of miracle and resurrection. Even if resurrection exist, I would still prefer to have no afterlife, which mean no heaven and no hell, and no reincarnation. When I die, I want to cease to exist. I don't want no continuation of life in any matter or form.

    I don't believe in Satan or hell, and if there is a God, then I don't want any part of him any more than I want Satan. I don't want God's mercy or reward. If I have a soul, then I would ask for a complete annihilation of it.

    So don't preach to me about believing in Christ.
     
  14. maggie2

    maggie2 Active Member

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    Hey Dave,

    Sorry I didn't respond sooner but I guess I missed this post. I'm not sure why you are asking where my belief comes from. By using the word 'delusion' you leave a negative impression of your take on my statement. However, that being said, here's where I come from.

    I have read and studied many books, some sacred texts and also discussed spiritual ideas and concepts for many years. The fairly recent developments in quantum physics appear to show that all matter is actually made of energy or light, which I take to be interchangeable words. So if everything is energy, and energy doesn't disappear, doesn't 'die' but simply continues to evolve then I take it that humans fit into that situation. So if we are made up of matter, which we are, and matter is just light/energy that has formed into a particular mass, that energy/light will continue on once our body dies.

    It's really a pretty simplistic concept but it works for me. I would add that this has absolutely no connection to the concepts of heaven and hell. I don't relate to those ideas.
     
  15. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    So your telling me that the consequences of the laws dont act as a deterant to you because you never want to break the law anyway? I suppose it depends on the law, if its true that Gods law is that one should not lie, steal, lust etc would you be able to say that you havnt broken his laws? And if you indeed say you have then why shouldnt you fear him and be grateful that Christ paid for your sin? - (I understand that this all rests on God being real, but again this is why i said it makes such a huge difference if you believe Christ and what he taught and that he was ressurected proving his message)


    I understand your point of view, but its not what we want to be real that is. We dont want things into reality. If God is real and Christ is the Saviour you have no say in it, you can choose to disbelieve it but at the end it will make no difference if its true. You do hae the choice to disbeleive though and im not argueing that - thats the whole point of freewill. Im just saying that its important to choice what is true rather then just what you want to be true.


    Again its not about what you want, its about what is real. If Christ is who he said he was then your wishing and wanting otherwise in the end will mean nothing.
     
  16. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    No, Steve. You've misunderstood me.

    Real or not, I don't want no part of Christ or God. I also don't want no part of heaven or its reward, if they do exist.

    And so far, I haven't seen any proof of heaven/hell, Christ, Satan or God. Without proof, then such thing can't be said to be "real" or "true".
     
  17. ggd316

    ggd316 New Member

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    When we die, we die. We decompose, become dirt, become plants, get eaten...it's the circle of life.

    Our consciousness is dependent on our brain, when our brain stop working we lose consciousness. So when our heart stops beating, our brain stops, and we lose consciousness. We know that our bodies don't survive death. And neither do our minds, our mind is dependent on our brain...so there is really nothing left to happen. We die...that's about as exciting as it gets.
     
  18. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    yes i agree ,
    i would say the definition of the ceasing of all functions of life. After breathing, heartbeat, and brain activity stop, the life-force gradually ceases to function in body cells. Death is the opposite of life.

    Gen. 3:19: "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return."​

    Eccl. 9:10: "All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol ["the grave,) the place to which you are going. .....................but because Jehovah God has promised to reverse this condition that happens to us all , i am looking forward to the time when if i die , Jehovah will remember how i am made up, and then he will bring me back to live on a new paradise earth .........
    Luke 23:43: "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise." (All the earth will be transformed into a paradise under the rule of Christ as King.)

    Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment... john 5;28-29 this judgement is not judgement for our past deeds before we died .it is how we live after we have been resurrected


    Rev. 21:1-4: "I saw a new heaven and a new earth . . . I heard a loud voice from the throne say: ‘Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.............. yippee nomore funerals only resurrections instead
    (2 Peter 3:13) But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.

    For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart .... isaiah 65;17

    Eccl. 9:5: "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.

     
  19. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    I disagree may, Christ clearly taught the reality of punishment in hell.
    Here again is part of a post from another thread that shows why i say this.

    May do you just ignor Jesus teachings about hell? eg
    "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' Luke 22-24

    And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:10

    "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. John 5:28-29

    And for those who say that hell just means a grave, why does Jesus often refer to it as "fiery hell", where there will be "weeping and nashing of teeth", where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.', "the lake of fire".

    If people dont want to belive there is a hell thats their choice, but lets not twist Christs words and pretend and bible dosnt teach there is one - Christ warned more about hell then he spoke about heaven.
     
  20. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Hi,I think the illustration you are refering to is luke 16; 19-24 i wouldnt say it was ignoring what the bible says , i would say it was more like having an accurate knowledge about what the bible talks about , i dont mean to be patronizing when i say that , but i honestly dont believe that Jesus was talking about litral hellfire. it is important to get back to what the original hebrew and greek words meant at the time, also revelation for the most part is a book of sybolisim as the start of the book tells us, and Jesus was also telling us many illustrations they were not real events or people but illustrations ,things are not as they seem at first glance .
    Who, then, was pictured by the rich man and who by Lazarus? What was represented by their deaths? The rich man pictured the self-important religious leaders who failed to feed the people spiritually, and Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted Jesus Christ. Their deaths represented a change in their condition.

    the self-important Jewish religious leaders "died" with respect to having God’s favor and came to be tormented by the teachings of Christ and his followers. For example, when Stephen publicly exposed them, "they felt cut to their hearts and began to gnash their teeth . . . and put their hands over their ears." They felt torment.—Acts 7:51-57.​

    So rather than teaching a fiery-hell torment after death, Jesus story describes the change of condition that his teachings accomplished among two classes of people. and yes i agree that as you say there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous ,but they will be judged on how they live their lives from the resurrection onwards , not on the deeds they did before they died , and this will be an earthly resurrection into the new paradise earth
    But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell 2 peter 3;13


     
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