Jesus as a creation

james2ko · Nov 29, 2013

Call_of_the_Wild said:
Wait a minute...a discussion with a JW about the Trinity? Noooooo.
Here "firstborn" doesn't mean "first-created". It means "preeminence". I don't mean to over-analyze, but to me it just doesn't make any sense to call Jesus "first born" in the sense of "first created" and then proceed to state that he created all things (in the following verses).

I'm not so sure. The Greek term for firstborn [prototokos] is derived from two Greek words. "Protos" [g4413] which means " foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all)". Interestingly enough, this is the root of our English word "prototype". The second term, "tikto", is defined as: to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.), literal or figurative: - bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail. If Paul wanted to engender "preeminence" without the connotation of a birth/creation, he would have used the term he used in Col 1:18 [proteuon]. Instead he uses a term that is used throughout scripture to signify the first of its kind produced/created.

It seems as if a word is missing if that were the case...JW's put the word [other] in brackets as such, so readers can know that Jesus created all "other" things. Now that actually makes more sense...the problem is, it is adding words to the bible to change the context of what Paul was saying. If Paul wanted to say it, it would have said it. If we have to rely on uninspired man to add words to the bible to get us to understand it, then something is wrong here.

Have a reference?

Second, look at what it states in verse 14, that we have forgiveness of our sins through Jesus. How can we have forgiveness of our sins by way of a mere creation? Makes no sense. Who but God can forgive sins? Would only make sense if Jesus is actually God.

Similar to God forgiving OT Israel's sins by sacrificing created creatures [animals].

Pegg · Nov 29, 2013

james2ko said:
Have a reference?

he's referring to the Colossians 1:16 in the NWT:

15*He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16*because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17*Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18*and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19*because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20*and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens.

if the translators didnt put [other] in vs 16, it would actually change the context to Jesus being the Almighty....hence a perfect trinitarian proof text:
because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth

But in keeping with the teachings of the Apostles, Jesus is not the Almighty....we know this for many reasons. Paul himself stated in Hebrews1:2*has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

God made the system of things THROUGH his son Jesus. This is absolute proof that Jesus is not God the Almighty.... he was instrumental in the creation but he wasnt God.

james2ko · Nov 29, 2013

Pegg said:
he's referring to the Colossians 1:16 in the NWT:

15*He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16*because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17*Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18*and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19*because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20*and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens.

if the translators didnt put [other] in vs 16, it would actually change the context to Jesus being the Almighty....hence a perfect trinitarian proof text:
because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth

But in keeping with the teachings of the Apostles, Jesus is not the Almighty....we know this for many reasons. Paul himself stated in Hebrews1:2*has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

God made the system of things THROUGH his son Jesus. This is absolute proof that Jesus is not God the Almighty.... he was instrumental in the creation but he wasnt God.

I agree. It took me a long time to wrap my head around this teaching. I've investigated most of your doctrines and I believe the evidence suggests you guys got this one right.

Katzpur · Nov 29, 2013

Pegg said:
God made the system of things THROUGH his son Jesus. This is absolute proof that Jesus is not God the Almighty.... he was instrumental in the creation but he wasnt God.

Well, it definitely proves Jesus wasn't God the Father. Jesus did say, however, that "all things that the Father hath are mine." I believe that one of these things was the right to the title, "God." I see the Son as holding a subordinate position to the Father (evidenced by the fact that the Son acted under His Father's leadership and direction in creating the earth). But in Hebrews 1:8, the Father specifically addresses the Son as "God": "But unto the Son he saith,Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." To me, this is an important piece of evidence that the Son can also rightfully be referred to as "God," just as long as we recognize that He is not the same individual as the Father, and that the Father is -- as Jesus himself put it, -- "greater than the Son."

Pegg · Nov 30, 2013

Katzpur said:
Well, it definitely proves Jesus wasn't God the Father. Jesus did say, however, that "all things that the Father hath are mine." I believe that one of these things was the right to the title, "God." I see the Son as holding a subordinate position to the Father (evidenced by the fact that the Son acted under His Father's leadership and direction in creating the earth). But in Hebrews 1:8, the Father specifically addresses the Son as "God": "But unto the Son he saith,Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." To me, this is an important piece of evidence that the Son can also rightfully be referred to as "God," just as long as we recognize that He is not the same individual as the Father, and that the Father is -- as Jesus himself put it, -- "greater than the Son."

sure, but being called god in the scriptures is not isolated to Jesus or Jehovah...even the jews are called 'gods'

'god' being a word meaning 'mighty/strong'

A point to ponder on Hebrews 1:8 is that Paul is quoting from Psalm 45:6 "God is your throne to time indefinite, even forever;
The scepter of your kingship is a scepter of uprightness."
This Psalm is addressed to one of Israels earthly kings (possibly Solomon) who was given the throne by Gods authority....hence Paul is applying this Psalm to Jesus and therefore the throne is conferred upon Jesus by God in the same way the earthly throne was given by God. Its just a good point for trinitarians to consider because they view Jesus and God as the same person whereas this scripture shows clearly that they cannot be.

Pegg · Nov 30, 2013

james2ko said:
I agree. It took me a long time to wrap my head around this teaching. I've investigated most of your doctrines and I believe the evidence suggests you guys got this one right.

its certainly easier to see the distinct individuality of Jesus when you dont have the trinity doctrine hiding the fact

idav · Nov 30, 2013

Muffled said:
The evidence does seem to indicate that He is human in that nothing is reported about Him as being strange other than His power over wind and waves (Mark 4:41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?) which is from His divinty not His humanity.

If I were God I would get rid of the sex drive because it would just be a distraction and complicate relationships. I am of the opinion that when we recive our new bodies that they won't have a sex drive since having children will be unneccesssary.
Considering that Jesus is never reputed to be be with a woman, this could be one explanation although it is also true that Jesus oveercame the world.

I once had a person argue that Jesus was a different person from the Father because He did not have the Father's attributes. I did my Biblical research on it finding verses that are evidence that He did have those attributes but the person was angry with me for challenging a cherished belief.

It does show that jesus is the son of god however being godlike or have some attributes doesnt make him God. You would expect the son of the most high to have some power, and that was a main argument for him being the son of god.

idav · Nov 30, 2013

Katzpur said:
Well, it definitely proves Jesus wasn't God the Father. Jesus did say, however, that "all things that the Father hath are mine." I believe that one of these things was the right to the title, "God." I see the Son as holding a subordinate position to the Father (evidenced by the fact that the Son acted under His Father's leadership and direction in creating the earth). But in Hebrews 1:8, the Father specifically addresses the Son as "God": "But unto the Son he saith,Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." To me, this is an important piece of evidence that the Son can also rightfully be referred to as "God," just as long as we recognize that He is not the same individual as the Father, and that the Father is -- as Jesus himself put it, -- "greater than the Son."

That title appointed to the son is not God the title is Lord, but yes scripture suggests god is granting the power to the son. There is still the verse that says god does not share the glory, which is fine, jesus was always certain to acknowledge everything as being from the father.

james2ko · Nov 30, 2013

Pegg said:
its certainly easier to see the distinct individuality of Jesus when you dont have the trinity doctrine hiding the fact

True. Although I was never really a trinitarian. I came to know the God family as a binity, which is essentially the same minus the holy spirit.

Pegg · Nov 30, 2013

james2ko said:
True. Although I was never really a trinitarian. I came to know the God family as a binity, which is essentially the same minus the holy spirit.

i dont understand what that means.... Jesus is still God minus the holy spirit???

james2ko · Nov 30, 2013

Pegg said:
i dont understand what that means.... Jesus is still God minus the holy spirit???

A binitarian is one who believes in the co-eternal existence and deity of both God the Father and the Son. They also believe the holy spirit is not a third person but the power of God. This is what I meant when I said "minus the holy spirit".

Muffled · Nov 30, 2013

9-10ths_Penguin said:
If Jesus wasn't created and always existed, how can he be a "son"?

I believe the Spirit of God in Jesus has always existed.

I believe He is a son because he was born of Mary and he is ostensibly male.

Muffled · Nov 30, 2013

james2ko said:
I asked my wife a somewhat similar question. "Most Christians believe The Father and Son existed together from eternity, if that is the case, how did they decide who would be the Father and who would be the Son?" She replied, "maybe they played rock, paper, scissor."

I believe of course they are always together because they are the same person.

God decides to be a Son which leaves Him as the Father. It was like that for me too; when I had my first child I became a father.

Muffled · Nov 30, 2013

james2ko said:
Pro 8:36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death."

I'm not so sure. Can one sin against an abstract such as "wisdom" or does one sin against a concrete "God"?

Joh 15:23-24 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I believe so and I can also sin against myself ie break my own personal rule. A person can also sin against logic ie break the rules of logic.

Will you make logic a god also as I believe some atheists tend to do. However that doesn't preclude God from being logical: Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith Jehovah: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

james2ko · Nov 30, 2013

Muffled said:
I believe so and I can also sin against myself ie break my own personal rule. A person can also sin against logic ie break the rules of logic.

Will you make logic a god also as I believe some atheists tend to do. However that doesn't preclude God from being logical: Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith Jehovah: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

The only problem is Pro 8:22 states wisdom was created. This implies it did not exist at one point. And if it did not exist you have to conclude God, at one point, had no wisdom and if we insert your example, He also had no logic.

I believe of course they are always together because they are the same person. God decides to be a Son which leaves Him as the Father. It was like that for me too; when I had my first child I became a father.

If you had to "become" the father, you and your son cannot be the same person.

idav · Nov 30, 2013

Muffled said:
I believe of course they are always together because they are the same person.

God decides to be a Son which leaves Him as the Father. It was like that for me too; when I had my first child I became a father.

If it is literally one entity then no need for a trinity concept. Jesus would be an avatar.

Katzpur · Nov 30, 2013

Muffled said:
God decides to be a Son which leaves Him as the Father. It was like that for me too; when I had my first child I became a father.

You became a father to your child, but your child did not become a father to you. And if the two of you were the same person, you would not have had to wait until you had a child to become a father. You and your child would have existed simultaneously forever, along with your father and grandfather who would also be part of that single person. Without two separate individuals, there can be no relationship.

outhouse · Nov 30, 2013

Katzpur said:
You became a father to your child, but your child did not become a father to you. And if the two of you were the same person, you would not have had to wait until you had a child to become a father. You and your child would have existed simultaneously forever, along with your father and grandfather who would also be part of that single person. Without two separate individuals, there can be no relationship.

It seems ignored that

Jesus dad is Yahweh and Joseph

Jesus grandpa is El

Jesus mom is both Mary and Asherah

Jesus grandma is Asherah

And they say mythology isnt complicated

Pegg · Nov 30, 2013

james2ko said:
A binitarian is one who believes in the co-eternal existence and deity of both God the Father and the Son. They also believe the holy spirit is not a third person but the power of God. This is what I meant when I said "minus the holy spirit".

oh ok, i understand you now.

And immediately what came to my mind was the description of Jehovah as a God who is from 'time indefinite' or 'eternal'

but Jesus is described as being 'from the beginning' never eternal or from time indefinite.

To me that shows that Jesus is not eternal...and if he were, then he wasnt created by God and is in fact an equal to God. But did Jesus ever claim to be equal to God? No. Nor did he ever try to work independently from God as if he had the right to self autonomy. Jesus is spoken of in the scriptures as a 'servant' of God, and as someone who was doing the express will of God.

Call_of_the_Wild · Nov 30, 2013

james2ko said:
I'm not so sure. The Greek term for firstborn [prototokos] is derived from two Greek words. "Protos" [g4413] which means " foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all)". Interestingly enough, this is the root of our English word "prototype". The second term, "tikto", is defined as: to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.), literal or figurative: - bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail. If Paul wanted to engender "preeminence" without the connotation of a birth/creation, he would have used the term he used in Col 1:18 [proteuon]. Instead he uses a term that is used throughout scripture to signify the first of its kind produced/created.

Ok, but if Jesus created all things as those verses indicate, then who the heck is doing all the creating in Genesis?

james2ko said:
Have a reference?

Of course, the New World Translation of the scriptures, which is a bible specified to meet Jehovah Witness theology.

james2ko said:
Similar to God forgiving OT Israel's sins by sacrificing created creatures [animals].

Yeah and those animals can't sin because they are not moral agents, in the same way Jesus can't/couldn't sin because he doesn't have a sinful nature, and the only "person" I know that can't sin is God..but in this case God has revealed himself in three forms...the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

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