Jesus as a creation

[Muffled]

Sounds good philosophically speaking, but it is not scriptural. For vs 23 states wisdom came before-not with-- the creation.

I was formed a long time ago, before the world was made.
​

Then it was a false analogy.

We are not discussing what God "can" do but what "did" He do, right?

I see you want to split hairs. A creation does not take place until it is first generated as a concept. The concept of wisdom precedes the creation but just as a building plan is not a building it is still intrinsically tied to the building.

 

[james2ko]

I see you want to split hairs. A creation does not take place until it is first generated as a concept. The concept of wisdom precedes the creation but just as a building plan is not a building it is still intrinsically tied to the building.

Absolutely. Sometimes it could mean the difference between life and death. I'm willing to bet Nadab and Abihu wished the split "scriptural" hairs.

 

[Muffled]

Absolutely. Sometimes it could mean the difference between life and death. I'm willing to bet Nadab and Abihu wished the split "scriptural" hairs.

At any rate I believe wisdom is not created. It takes form at creation.

 

[james2ko]

At any rate I believe wisdom is not created. It takes form at creation.

That's fine. I was just pointing out what scripture has to say about it. And it seems to be at odds with your belief.

 

[idav]

Sounds good philosophically speaking, but it is not scriptural. For vs 23 states wisdom came before-not with-- the creation.

I was formed a long time ago, before the world was made.​

Then it was a false analogy.



We are not discussing what God "can" do but what "did" He do, right?

The world was "made" after creation was already in place. So wisdom would have already been in place before the world was made.

"In the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god."

 

[Muffled]

That's fine. I was just pointing out what scripture has to say about it. And it seems to be at odds with your belief.

That is the orthodox JW belief that all you are doing is quoting scripture but the truth is that you are misinterpreting scripture.

The verse says formed not created. Gods words were also formed but not spoken (as far as we know) until the creationbut His words are as much an attribute of God as His wisdom.

I believe that scripture without the wisdom of God to understand it can lead to the false conclusions that you make.

 

[Muffled]

The world was "made" after creation was already in place. So wisdom would have already been in place before the world was made.

"In the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god."

Did God have to create correct thinking (Wisdom) or did He have it already. If He didn't have it how could He have thought correctly to create it?

Also It never says that it became a spirit. It would be like saying I created the word Why? but then it wouldn't have a spirit or be a living entity so what is it apart from its creator. My belief is that it is endemic to its creator.

 

[james2ko]

The world was "made" after creation was already in place. So wisdom would have already been in place before the world was made. "In the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god."

Was the "world" made after creation or did you mean "word"?

 

[james2ko]

That is the orthodox JW belief that all you are doing is quoting scripture but the truth is that you are misinterpreting scripture.

Im no JW but there's no such thing. It is either a biblically supported belief or it isn't.

The verse says formed not created. Gods words were also formed but not spoken (as far as we know) until the creation but His words are as much an attribute of God as His wisdom.

Formed and created are synonyms. The NLT uses "formed" while the NET and GNB use "created" for vs 22.

I believe that scripture without the wisdom of God to understand it can lead to the false conclusions that you make.

Accusations are useless unless proven. You have yet to provide scriptures proving my conclusion false, hence making your accusation....well, you know....useless.

 

[Muffled]

Was the "world" made after creation or did you mean "word"?

World. I believe the World was created in verse 9 so we have verses 1-8 preceding it in creation. Of course creaation is still continuing so I am referring to the beginning of creation at verse 1 when I refer to creation not the whole process.

 

[Muffled]

Im no JW but there's no such thing. It is either a biblically supported belief or it isn't.



Formed and created are synonyms. The NLT uses "formed" while the NET and GNB use "created" for vs 22.



Accusations are useless unless proven. You have yet to provide scriptures proving my conclusion false, hence making your accusation....well, you know....useless.

In a sense they are the same but they are also different. I believe the creation of substance starts in verse 1 of Genesis after that creation is simply forming substance into heavens and earths, and whatever else needed to be formed.

Prov 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning

My translation says that wisdom was already possessed by God so that formation of wisdom is only an extension of that which already existed just as the creation afete verse 1 in Genesis is a formation of what already existed.

I don't beleive I was accusing but simply pointing out where one can be lacking. I don't think there is anything wrong with that; a man without a hoe can't be expected to hoe a row. As for the JW thing, it quacked like a duck and walked like a duck so it seemed reasonable but I will take your word for it that you are not one.

 

[james2ko]

In a sense they are the same but they are also different. I believe the creation of substance starts in verse 1 of Genesis after that creation is simply forming substance into heavens and earths, and whatever else needed to be formed.

1. We can believe anything, but if it's not supported by sound biblical exegesis, it is conjecture based on preconceived traditions and beliefs. For instance, I provided solid scriptural references on how the two terms, you claimed are different, are actually synonymous. Yet you provide only your opinion as to why they are different lacking solid biblical support.

Prov 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning

My translation says that wisdom was already possessed by God so that formation of wisdom is only an extension of that which already existed just as the creation afete verse 1 in Genesis is a formation of what already existed.

2. Remember the translations were not inspired---the originals languages were. So what does the original say? The Hebrew term for "possessed" [qanah] can be defined as acquired, purchased or formed (created). The context would determine its use. A careful reading of vs 22-31 would reveal the context and flow is consistent with being made or created not possessed, purchased, or acquired. Verses 24 and 25 utilize the term "brought forth" which is consistent with being born, formed, or created (Gen 1:12; Psa 90:2). Hence the correct rendering should be "created" not possessed.

I don't beleive I was accusing but simply pointing out where one can be lacking. I don't think there is anything wrong with that; a man without a hoe can't be expected to hoe a row. As for the JW thing, it quacked like a duck and walked like a duck so it seemed reasonable but I will take your word for it that you are not one.

3. But you have yet to provide anything of substance to prove your point, as demonstrated in point 1. So who's the one lacking?

 

[Muffled]

1. We can believe anything, but if it's not supported by sound biblical exegesis, it is conjecture based on preconceived traditions and beliefs. For instance, I provided solid scriptural references on how the two terms, you claimed are different, are actually synonymous. Yet you provide only your opinion as to why they are different lacking solid biblical support.



2. Remember the translations were not inspired---the originals languages were. So what does the original say? The Hebrew term for "possessed" [qanah] can be defined as acquired, purchased or formed (created). The context would determine its use. A careful reading of vs 22-31 would reveal the context and flow is consistent with being made or created not possessed, purchased, or acquired. Verses 24 and 25 utilize the term "brought forth" which is consistent with being born, formed, or created (Gen 1:12; Psa 90:2). Hence the correct rendering should be "created" not possessed.



3. But you have yet to provide anything of substance to prove your point, as demonstrated in point 1. So who's the one lacking?

I believe i do not base anything on pre-conceived notions or traditions nor am I speculating in this instance.

I believe sound exegesis is not possible without the aid of the Holy Spirit and I do my exegesis with His aid.

I believe you have speculated that they are synonymous. I doubt very much that the text came right out saying the earlier text is synonymous with this one.

I believe one would have a difficult time proving that but when one considers that some translations are in error the deduction might hold in that instance.

I believe this is in error because I see no evidence of a flow as you pereive it. I do believe creation flows from God since Genesis supports that. I believe these verses also indicate that. Otherwise I believe you are saying that God was not wise until the beginning of creation.

I don't consider it a lack to find people who have difficulty understanding me. I believe I have proven my point and that you have not refuted it.

 

[james2ko]

I believe i do not base anything on pre-conceived notions or traditions nor am I speculating in this instance.

1. One can also believe in the tooth fairy. But unless one produces concrete evidence to support she exists, it remains conjecture.

I believe sound exegesis is not possible without the aid of the Holy Spirit[ and I do my exegesis with His aid.

2. Now here's something we can agree on.

I believe you have speculated that they are synonymous. I doubt very much that the text came right out saying the earlier text is synonymous with this one.

3. I believe I can refute that belief:

Pro 8:22 "The LORD formed me from the beginning, before He created anything else. (NLT)
Pro 8:22 "The LORD created me first of all, the first of his works, long ago. (GNB)

I believe one would have a difficult time proving that but when one considers that some translations are in error the deduction might hold in that instance.

4. See. You based this belief on solid textual evidence and you got it right. Now all you have to do is make it a habit and you are well on your way to even greater understanding.

I believe this is in error because I see no evidence of a flow as you pereive it. I do believe creation flows from God since Genesis supports that. I believe these verses also indicate that.

5. Pro 8:22 "The LORD formed me [wisdom] from the beginning, before He created anything else.
Pro 8:23 I was appointed [made-GNB] in ages past, at the very first, before the earth began.
Pro 8:24 I was born before the oceans were created, before the springs bubbled forth their waters.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were formed, before the hills, I was born— NLT​

If you want to believe the textual flow indicates a "possession" over a "creation" of wisdom, then I have a very nice piece of land near Antarctica I'd like to sell you.

Otherwise I believe you are saying that God was not wise until the beginning of creation.

6. That is precisely the reason why this chapter has to be a reference to the creation of the second member of the God family--Jesus Christ.

I don't consider it a lack to find people who have difficulty understanding me. I believe I have proven my point and that you have not refuted it.

7. I have said it before and will say it again, "Denial is not just a river in Egypt."

 

[Muffled]

1. One can also believe in the tooth fairy. But unless one produces concrete evidence to support she exists, it remains conjecture.

So unless you are a mind reader, I believe you have no evidence that that my claims are invalid. I have to say I believe in order to follow the rules which say that I can't know anything but only believe things. So I believe 1 + 1 = 2 because of the evidence but I can only believe it since no-one can really know that it is true. I have no evidence to support the existence of a tooth fairy.

2. Now here's something we can agree on.

3. I believe I can refute that belief:

Pro 8:22 "The LORD formed me from the beginning, before He created anything else. (NLT)
Pro 8:22 "The LORD created me first of all, the first of his works, long ago. (GNB)

The GNB is the worst translation that I have ever read.

4. See. You based this belief on solid textual evidence and you got it right. Now all you have to do is make it a habit and you are well on your way to even greater understanding.

5. Pro 8:22 "The LORD formed me [wisdom] from the beginning, before He created anything else.

Pro 8:23 I was appointed [made-GNB] in ages past, at the very first, before the earth began.
Pro 8:24 I was born before the oceans were created, before the springs bubbled forth their waters.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were formed, before the hills, I was born— NLT
​

If you want to believe the textual flow indicates a "possession" over a "creation" of wisdom, then I have a very nice piece of land near Antarctica I'd like to sell you.

I do believe that and I believe you have not offered evidence to the contrary. I don't believe you can sell me land in Antartica any better than you can sell me on wisdom being created. I believe Antartica is covered by ice from all the reports and pictures. I believe the text does not say that wisdom was created.

6. That is precisely the reason why this chapter has to be a reference to the creation of the second member of the God family--Jesus Christ.

So you are saying that Jesus is wise and God isn't? I happen to believe that Jesus is God in the flesh.

7. I have said it before and will say it again, "Denial is not just a river in Egypt."

I believe you are like the person who says you have not proven your point that 1 + 1 = 2 because I still refuse to believe it.