Gospel of Luke?

Rise, I had to respond in two posts.

Rise said:

　

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Rise said:

14 And the Word became flesh, and [k]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [l]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me [m]has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’"
(Note that John was actually born before Jesus, yet he says Jesus existed before Him)

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Yes, it is true, John did say Jesus existed before Him.
However, does not NT say, the reality of John also existed 1000 years before Jesus?


See OT prophecised:

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD" -Malachi 4:1-5

Then See NT, Jesus said:
Thus it is clear, when Bible talks about existance of the same Prophets in the past, It is not talking about, their physical or individual reality. It is talking about their Holy Reality, which they appear with the same spiritual qualities in various Ages.

Many consider Jesus was "New Moses"

Since all these Prophets, reflect the Will and Word of God, they are all the same Reality. They only appear with different glory, due to the mission that God gives them.

John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,[a] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

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The analogy of "Image of God" appeaing in the Mirror also explain this verse.


　

Colossians 1:
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by[f] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

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Here, it is talking about the Holy reality of Jesus, which is the same nature as Holy Spirit.
If I show you a drop of water, and tell you, by "this" every thirsty recieved a drink from begining. That does not mean this individual "drop of water". But it means this substance. This "kind".

Likewise when Bible says: "For by him all things were created" that does not mean this individual reality of Jesus created all, but this substance, which is the Holy Spirit, The Holy Nature of Christ, who God expressed His Will Power to create.

　
Sorry for not responding earlier, but I've been busy with school.
　

Well, I understand your interpretation. This is another way to interpret it.

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Romans 8 is very clear on what it means for us to be considered sons of God.
If you think there is a different way of interpreting it, then present that, and I'll show you why it's wrong.
　
And the greek word behind "only son" means what it means; It means unique, one of a kind, none other like Him.
How do you reconcile that to your view?
　
　
More uniqueness:
Galatians 3
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
　
　

True. But even before Jesus, it seems there were others who became sons of God:

"That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair;"?? Gen. 6:2

If Jesus is the only way, we can become sons of God, then why OT also refers to those who had faith in God, as sons of God?

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Bene Elohim can be a tricky word to translate because it has such varied meanings. The seputagint chooses to translate it as Angels of God. The early church writers and jews of this time all believed that this part of scripture referred to rebellious angels who mated with humans.

I haven't studied this area out enough to state with absolute certainty what it's talking about there (this is a point of much theological debate), but I can with certainty state what it isn't based on the larger body of scripture - It isn't the implication that Jesus is just another of many who have come before Him in the past.
　
　
　

His physical body and spiritual body, did not exist prior to His born of mary. However the "Holy Spirit" always existed and was presented even before Birth of Jesus. See OT.

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Revelation 13:8
whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
John 1:29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
　
John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4
...
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
　
Which lines up with Colossians 1:
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by[f] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
　
More of his pre-existance (and also of His divinity):
Jude 1:
5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved[c] a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
　
In Jude it says that he was the one who delivered the israelites from Egypt and destroyed the rebellious. This ia direct reference to Him being what is referred to as YHVH in the OT (which gets back to what I said earlier about how anywhere you see God referred to in the OT by his personal name YHVH it's a reference to Jesus as the personal representation and incarnation of God the Father. Elohim, in contrast, is a broader term that would be our equivalent of "God", whereas Jesus is the name we have for his personal humanly representation that interacts with us in a relational way).
　
　
He was around before Abraham
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
57 "You are not yet fifty years old," they said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
58 "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
　
He said "I AM", which is a reference to Exodus 3:14 "
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"
　
　
　
　

It is this Holy Spirit, which is like a Mirror that reflects the Image of God fully.

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He wasn't just a reflection of light, The Spirit of God dwelled within Him.
Colossians 1
19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
　
We aren't just reflections of a light either, but the Spirit of God dwells within those who belong to Christ:

Romans 8
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus[d] from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
　
The discples were filled with the Spirit:
Acts 2
2 When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested[a] on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

His Spirit dwells within us:
1 Corinthians 6
19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?
　
2 Timothy 1
14 Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.
　
1 Corinthians 3
16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.
　
　

　
　

Also the ascension of Holy Spirit is not a physical reality. It is spiritual inspiration.

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Not according to the bible. Solomon's temple after it was dedicated, the Holy Spirit descended to dwell in the place and the weight of His pressence brought them all to the floor unable to walk.
In Acts 2 the spirit came through the place like a rushing wind.
　
The tabernacle and temple were physical places where a tangible presence resided, but they were only prophetic pictures of what was later to come (hebrews 10): The Holy Spirit dwelling within man.
　
Jesus refers to his body as a temple:
John 2
18 The Jews then responded to him, "What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?"
19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
20 They replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
　
Paul says our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit:
1 Corinthians 6
19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?
1 Corinthians 3
16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.
　
　
　
　
　

Yes, the verses are true. But how would we reconcile these with what OT says:
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" Deut. 6:4
So, now if Jesus was also God. And the Lord in OT was One God. Seems like a contradiction to me.

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Hear israel, YHVH is our God (elohenu), YHVH is one.
Jude 1 says Jesus is YHVH.
5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved[c] a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
　
Jesus is not "also" God, he "is" God.
　
John 10
30 I and the Father are one."
　
He doesn't just say He's like the Father, He says He and the Father are one.
　
Isaiah 9:6
"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,"

　
John 20
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
　
The discples called Jesus Lord. The word here for Lord, Kyrios, is the same word used in the seputagint in reference to the hebrew YHVH.
　
John 20
28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
　
Thomas not only calls him Lord, but calls him God. And not just a god, but "the God", and further "my God" which is the hebrew God of his fathers.
　
Titus 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

Again Jesus is called God.

　
　

　
If he were not God, then He wouldn't have allowed himself to be worshipped, for Jesus himself said "you shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve"

Matthew 4
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me." 10 Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written,
"‘You shall worship the Lord your God
and him only shall you serve.’"
　
　


Yet, Jesus not only allowed people to worship Him (without rebuking them), and even said it was required that He be honored just as the Father is honored, but fruthermore in revelations we find all of creation worships Him.
　
　
John 5
22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
　
Hebrews 1:6
6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
"Let all God's angels worship him."

Phillipians 2:
9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
　
Matthew 14
32 And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. 33 And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Matthew 15
25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me."
　
Matthew 28
9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
　
Matthew 28
17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.
　
John 9
38 He said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.
　
Revelation 5
8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying,
"Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth."
11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might
and honor and glory and blessing!"
13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying,
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
14 And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped.
　
　
　
And before you try to claim that He merely bore the image of the Fther and thus was entitled to worship, realize that everyone else from apostles to angels in the bible refused worship:

Acts 14
11 And when the crowds saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in Lycaonian, "The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!" 12 Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13 And the priest of Zeus, whose temple was at the entrance to the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds. 14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and rushed out into the crowd, crying out, 15 "Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them.

Acts 10
25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am a man."

Revelation 19
9 And the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These are the true words of God." 10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant[c] with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God."

Revelation 22
8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, 9 but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant[d] with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
　
　

This is what happenes to those who accept worship as God that doesn't belong to them:

Acts 12
21 And in a day that was ordained, Herod was clothed with king's clothing, and sat for doomsman, and spake to them. [Forsooth a day ordained, Herod clothed with king's clothing, sat for doomsman, and spake to them.]
22 And the people cried, The voice of God, and not of man.
23 And at once [Soothly anon] an angel of the Lord smote him, for he had not given honour to God; and he was wasted of worms, and died.
　
　
　

King David was "worshiped".

It's important to understand what it actually entails.

Examining the Trinity: Worship (as used in Scripture)

"The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature, as here [Jesus], or to the Creator."

At Rev. 3:9 Jesus shows the position of authority he will give to some of his human followers when he says he will make people "worship before thy feet." - KJV. The word used there is proskuneo! The ASV again adds this footnote: "The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence whether paid to a creature, or the Creator."*

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We can see the same thing at Is. 45:14. Here God, speaking to his faithful human followers of the last days, says: "and they [the rest of surviving mankind] ... shall fall down [shachah - 'worship'] unto thee, they shall make supplication [palal - 'pray': see The Jerusalem Bible and AT] unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee [see IN/WITH study]; and there is none else." - KJV, ASV. - cf. Is. 49:23. Even the ancient Greek translation, the Septuagint, says at Is. 45:14 - "and they ... shall [proskuneo - 'worship'] thee and make supplication [proseuchomai - 'pray'] to thee; and there is no God beside thee." (Notice all the trinitarian-type "evidence" here that could "prove" these men are "equally God"!) - The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament, Greek and English, Zondervan Ed., 1970.

So we see that the king of Israel, for example, could receive proskuneo or shachah in his role as a representative of a higher authority (Jehovah), or he could receive it in recognition of his own earthly position of authority that God allowed him to have. For example, at 2 Sam. 14:22 Joab "worships" 'my Lord' (King David). The Hebrew word shachah translated in most places in the Bible as "worship" is here translated "did obeisance" in the RSV. In the Greek Septuagint the word used is proskuneo. So, in spite of their both sharing the same fleshly human nature, one gave the other proskuneo or shachah!

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Rise said:

　
If he were not God, then He wouldn't have allowed himself to be worshipped, for Jesus himself said "you shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve"　

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Although He did not urge others to worship Him.

If Jesus allowed others to Worship Him, it was not because they believed He was God, it was because, they Loved Him, and were waiting for the Messiah to come and save them.
As, Jesus was the image of God, meaning that the attibutes of God appeared fully in the spotless Mirror of Jesus, so, they worshipd God through Jesus, as the attributes of God were revealed through Jesus.

The word in Matthew 4 is is Proskyneses.
He said that you shall not Proskyneses anyone but the Lord your God.
Jesus accepted it in all it's forms, while Peter refused prosekynesen.
It does have shades of meaning, but clearly in this context it's not just being used as reverance for authority, but the kind of reverence which is due only to God.
But Jesus told us that we are to Honor Him as we honor the Father.

Although He did not urge others to worship Him.

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In John 5 he directly says that all Honor that would be due the Father is due to "The Son".
That doesn't mean all sons who are considered co-hiers with Christ due to their position in Him, because if that were the case then Paul and Peter would have had no problem recieving worship on behalf of God.

If Jesus allowed others to Worship Him, it was not because they believed He was God, it was because, they Loved Him, and were waiting for the Messiah to come and save them.

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They actually call Him "Lord" in reference to worshipping him three times, and once while referring to Him as the Son of God.
The word used there is the hebrew equivalent for YHVH, Kyrios.
In Matthew 28, Phillpians 2, and Revelation 5, He is given due worship in the direct context of someone who rules over all of heaven and earth.
He is recieving a level of Honor here that would only be due to God alone, not merely accepting reverence for a lesser authority of some sort.

The word "Lord" is also used for David, the word is not necessarily used for YHWH in the scripture, as "Lord of Sabbath" for example. Because of the tradition of writing the name as "Lord", it can be confusing as to when it was changed to such or actully meant as "lord" literally, and context of passage becomes up to dispute.

Even Trinitarian sites admit this. However, in the example they use here, it's clearly a Trinitarian bias here, as there's no reason NOT to read it as simply "jesus as Lord". Ultimately it becomes "context according to confirmation bias". Saying that Jesus is YHWH wouldn't really make grammatical sense IMO. You wouldn't say that a being is someone else, you'd be saying what he is as a title.

Blue Letter Bible - Help, Tutorials, and FAQs


Considering that David was called "lord" and that David was worshiped (The word for Worship in Hebrew is also used as in do not worship anyone but God, yet David is also worshiped, like how Proskenyos is used to not worship anyone but god, but yet Jesus says the apostles will be proskenesed), gramatically it's the same as in Hebrew: Jesus receiving such worship is no different than David receiving worship. Whether Jesus is the earthly king of the whole earth or just the land of Israel like David. Likewise, the apostles themsleves will be bowed down to. So there's no reason whatsoever to assume that Jesus is receiving the same level of obesiance as one would grant to the Father.

Jude 1:
They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.


When they called him Lord, they knew what context they were using it in: As THE Lord. The one who delivered them out of Egypt.

Rise said:

Jude 1:
They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.


When they called him Lord, they knew what context they were using it in: As THE Lord. The one who delivered them out of Egypt.

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There's no reason at all to assume that both uses of "Lord" are in the same use there necessarily. Hopefully you realize at least that the words don't always have the same meaning. Just because they're one verse apart doesn't mean it's the exact same use. Also, if you're emphasizing the use of the article, there's no use of such article in verse 4. With that said, the subject entirely changes from 4 to 5.

In fact, some erroneous manuscripts say "Jesus" instead of Lord at "c" there, indicating there was a Trinitarian effort to rewrite the text to force this interpretation.

Jude calls Jesus our only Sovereign and Lord. Only means only. The Lord our God is one. We don't have two Lords.

Furthermore, even if you won't take that as proof of the outright diety of Christ,
how do you reconcile that verse with a belief that Jesus is just a prophet no different from any other man when he has been given all authority to rule over Heaven and Earth and is called our only Sovereign and Lord?

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Rise said:

how do you reconcile that verse with a belief that Jesus is just a prophet no different from any other man when he has been given all authority to rule over Heaven and Earth and is called our only Sovereign and Lord?

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

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Well, there are prophets and there are Manifestations of God. Jesus was not just a Prophet. He was A Manifestation of God.
A Mirror who reflects the image of God, His Will, and His Words. In another word, He was given the Authority to talk on behalf of God.
"The Authority in Heaven and Earth" Has been given to Him, by GOD.
This means, God has given the Authority to Jesus to ordain Laws and Teachings. He was a Teacher of Mankind.
But Just as He said, He was before Abraham, means, this Authority was also given to previous Manifestations of God in previous Ages.

Jude calls Jesus our only Sovereign and Lord. Only means only. The Lord our God is one. We don't have two Lords.

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Only "Master" AND Lord. Doesn't mean "Only Master AND ONLY LORD". I think you got Sharp's "rule" confusing you here. "Master" would mean an Earthly appointee and leader.

Furthermore, even if you won't take that as proof of the outright diety of Christ,

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Which I won't, and no one should really.

how do you reconcile that verse with a belief that Jesus is just a prophet no different from any other man when he has been given all authority to rule over Heaven and Earth and is called our only Sovereign and Lord?

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Where did I Say he was JUST a prophet? He's the second in Command, he's the incarnation of the Highest Angel and Firstborn of Creation, the appointed created being by the Father to rule. Quite simply really.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

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You know what "Given" means?

The idea is that Jesus is the heir to the throne. Thus the Father has given it to him to rule under him as second in command, to rule as the Father would even Himself, but still under His authority. Notice in Sirach that the Father is called "king of king of kings".