Gospel of Luke?

[InvestigateTruth]

　
　

Righteousness is just that which is right according to God. He is the embodiment of everything that is right. He doesn't just love, he IS Love. And everything about him outflows from that, his truthfulness, forgiveness, mercy, justice, etc. Nothing about Him or His actions is, or ever has, been evil/wrong.

"Works" is generally used as a term to describe the actions a person believes they must perform in order to be declared one who is righteous.
　
But Jesus tells us that your state of your heart is what really matters. One who thinks thoughts of murder towards someone is just as guilty as one who actually does the deed, because their heart is not reflecting the heart of God, which is a heart of Love, and from love righteous actions will flow. Wherever you see unrighteous actions you see the result of a deficit of love in someone's heart, either a lack of love for the other person, for themselves, or for God.
　
The old testament law, as the epistles tell us, was only useful for showing us that we were "missing the mark" (a way to translate "sin") of God's ways and thoughts.
All the sacrificing of animals did was remind us that were in a state of sin, that we needed God's mercy and salvation so we'd stop missing the mark.
　

True faith results in abiding in Christ, and abiding in Christ produces fruit that is consistant with righteousness - People who abide in Christ start to be more loving in everything they do.

In a parable Jesus explains that He is the vine, we are grafted in as branches, and as we remain in that place of dependance on Him we start to bear the fruit of righteousness. He is the vinedresser who prunes the unfruitful parts of the branch off so that we can produce even more fruit.
The good news is you don't have to try harder to change your behavior or do all the right actions; it's just something that blossoms as you abide in Him, and surrender the parts of yourself to Him that need to be pruned off in order to produce more righteous fruit. Faith in Him is what allows you to abide in Him.

Merely having a belief in Jesus is not he same as putting your faith in Him. Biblical faith implies a trust and abiding relationship of fidelity.

　
　
So linked is this concept of abiding, through faith in Christ, as the key to being transformed to reflect the love of God, that John goes on at great length repeating the same thing in different ways trying to hammer home this critical concept to the reader:
1 John 4
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is [a]born of God and knows God. 8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 By this the love of God was manifested [b]in us, that God has sent His [c]only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has [d]for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear [e]involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us. 20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
　
　
　

Ok Thanks!
So the answer that I think you gave to my two questions:

1. So, my question was, within the context of Bible, true Faith also includes the above attributes?
You are saying Yes.

2. Or it is just merely a belief in Jesus, and that one day He comes and saves the ones who believed He is the Son of God?
you are saying No.

If I understood you correctly,
So, Now, coming to the definition of atonement as per wikipidia: "the atonement refers to the forgiving or pardoning of sin through the death of Jesus Christ by crucifixion."

To me, this means, that, Jesus had a mission from the Father, to bring a message from Him to His people, as bible says:

"I don't speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it." John 12:19

The Purpose of the Father to send Jesus, was to teach the true faith, spirituality:

"...the Spirit gives birth to spirit . You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'" John 3:6-7

It is through these spiritual teachings, the Spirit Recieves Eternal Life and power. As these spiritual teachings are as water and food for the spirit:

"but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst." John 4:14
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever." Jon 6:51


Thus, Jesus knew in order to perform His mission, which was to bring spiritual teachings which can give eternal life, He would have to confront with the Pharisees and Religious Leaders of His time, who were very cruel. He knew He has to sacrifice His Life. He knew He would be cruicified, but He did that because God loved His people:

""For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

Because it is the Sin that kills the spirit, but it is the spiritual teachings that gives life to spirit. So, Jesus sacrificed Himself, so, His people may learn and follow the commandments of father, who can save the spirit from the death of Sin:

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

 

[Rise]

Your perspective on Jesus leaves out huge swaths of biblical revelation about who He was, and what He did, and what He's asking us to do.
Your description makes it sound as though Jesus were merely a man who chose to stand up to people and tell the truth knowing He would die in the process, but that that is not the Jesus we find in the bible.

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh to die on our behalf. He took our place. He paid our debt. He redeemed that which was lost in the fall of man through His work. Through His work we are not only freed from our bondage to sin, but can regain our inheritance as Sons of God.
All was created through Him.
He is ruler of all the heavens and earth.
He is the one whom will judge all people.
It is only through Him that our sins can be forgiven.
He was the express image of God, and we are called to be conformed to His image through His Spirit.


Knowledge of what is right doesn't forgive us our sins, nor does merely knowing what is right help us to actually do what is right.
The work of Jesus forgives us our sins, and the Holy Spirit dwelling within us is what enables us to actually stop sinning.

Romans 7

14 So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. 15 I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. 16 But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
18 And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[d] I want to do what is right, but I can’t. 19 I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20 But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
21 I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22 I love God’s law with all my heart. 23 But there is another power[e] within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. 24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? 25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.


Romans 8

So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. 2 And because you belong to him, the power[a] of the life-giving Spirit has freed you[b] from the power of sin that leads to death. 3 The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature.[c] So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. 4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.
5 Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. 6 So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. 7 For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. 8 That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.
9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.) 10 And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life[d] because you have been made right with God. 11 The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.


The idea that knowledge (spiritual teachings) alone can save us sounds very much like the false ideas of the gnostics - But it is not what Jesus taught.
Salvation comes when one puts their faith in the fact that only Jesus has the power to forgive their sins, and they make a choice to put themselves under his lordship. If you make that decision then it means you've decided you want to repent (change your mind) about what you think is right and start being obediant to Him.

He is the one who brings you life. You live spiritually by abiding in Him. You can't bring spiritual life and nourishment to yourself by merely feasting on the any nice sounding spiritual teaching. You feast on Him, His Word. He is the teaching, His Word is life. Like the parable of the vine, you live and bear fruit by abiding in Him. Those who don't are like the branches that become withered and are thrown into the fire. None of us has the power to be our own fruitful tree under our own power, seperated from Him.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Your perspective on Jesus leaves out huge swaths of biblical revelation about who He was, and what He did, and what He's asking us to do.
Your description makes it sound as though Jesus were merely a man who chose to stand up to people and tell the truth knowing He would die in the process, but that that is not the Jesus we find in the bible.

As regards to the station of Jesus, there are different opinions, mostly because the Bible says different things about Jesus.
I believe Jesus is what the Bible says He is. Nothing Less, Nothing More. I think to understand Jesus station, the best way is to see ALL the statements in Bible regarding Him.
The Bible itself, describes Jesus, as a Prophet, who is an image of God, who is in unity with the father, but the father is greater than the son, and the son says and does whatever and however the Father says, but not from Himself.
Moreover, Jesus according to the Bible, is the Word, but He does not know of that Day:
"But of that Day and Hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father."

Moreover, according to Old Testament, God was never described as One who has parts.
So, to be fair, we need to understand the station of Jesus in a way that can explain all these appearantly contradicting statements about Him as described in Bible.


Historically, there has been some argument between Christian Denominations regarding Jesus station.

Firstly, we can see the Bible describes Jesus as an Image of God.
So, in this analogy, the Image of God has appeared in the Mirror, who is Jesus. This Mirror, due to its spiritual perfections, has the ability to reflect the Will, Words and Attributes of God.




"In whom the god of this world hath blinded theminds of them which believe not, lest the light ofthe glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." 4:4 2 Corinthians



It is interesting to note that the mirror analogy was not unknown to early Christians; the great theologian Origen (185-254 C.E.), citing the Book of Wisdom, called Christ 'the spotless mirror' of God's workings (Origen, On First Principles 26).

Moreover, the following verses from the Bible confirm this:

"and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." 2 cori 3-18

and

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature" - Colossians 1:14-15

and again:


“The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.” Hebrew 1-3


According to Clarke commentary of Bible, the interpretation of Image of God:


The brightness of his glory - Απαυγασμα της δοξης The resplendent outbeaming of the essential glory of God. Hesychius interprets απαυγασμα by ᾑλιου φεγγος, the splendor of the sun. The same form of expression is used by an apocryphal writer, Wis. 7:26, where, speaking of the uncreated wisdom of God, he says: "For she is the splendor of eternal light, απαυγασμα γαρ εστι φωτος αΐδιου, and the unsullied mirror of the energy of God, and the image of his goodness." The word αυγασμα is that which has splendor in itself απαυγασμα is the splendor emitted from it; but the inherent splendor and the exhibited splendor are radically and essentially the same.


And according to Gill’s exposition:

so the phrase , "the brightness of his glory", is used of the divine Being, in the Chaldee paraphrases (r); see the Apocrypha.
"For she is the brightness of the everlasting light, the unspotted mirror of the power of God, and the image of his goodness.'' (Wisdom 7:26)
And the express image of his person; this intends much the same as the other phrase; namely, equality and sameness of nature, and distinction of persons; for if the Father is God, Christ must be so too; and if he is a person, his Son must be so likewise, or he cannot be the express image and character of him;




Therefore in this analogy, if the Jesus is the Mirror, and God is the Sun, we can see the Light of the Sun in the Mirror.
Therefore if we look at the mirror, we can say that we see the Sun, but that does not mean the Sun moved inside the Mirror.
On the other hand we can say that is a Mirror, but not the Sun, as the Sun is not physically in the Mirror, but its image is.

Likewise Jesus said whoever has seen Me, has seen the Father, the Creator, as the Image of God appears in the Mirror of Jesus. And at the same time He said, He is son of man, a prophet who only says what God tells Him, because as the Mirror, He only reflected the Word of God.

Thus Jesus has said: “I and the Father are one”
He also said: “The Father is greater than I”, and alluded to Himself as a Prophet, when He said: "A Prophet has no honor in His homeland"

With this description, there is no contradictions between Old Testament, New Testament, or with different statements about Jesus in New Testament, while nothing outside of the Book or recorded traditions is added.

 

[Rise]

The three elements representing God are present in the OT. God is interchangeably referred to as Elohim or YHVH in the OT. Elohim is used as a more overarching term like one would use the Father, while YHVH is used in places where we see Him interacting with His people in the capacity of meetings, rulings, or acting upon the world.
His Holy Spirit is referred to as the Ruach Hakodesh, and is referenced as a distinct entity in places like Genesis.
　
Jesus is not "just" referred to as a prophet in the bible. He is THE prophet. He is also THE king over heaven and earth, THE judge, THE high priest (mediator between God and man, the one who atones for our sins, as patterned in the old testament rituals), THE sacrifice, the only way to the Father, the one whom through all was created, the one who pre-existed with the Father before the creation of the World.
He refers to himself as "I am", which is the term God used of himself with Moses. Which is why when he said this the people looked to stone him for having said it.
What you mistake for confusing stations is actually just revelation about the fullness of the many facets of who He is as God made manifest to us.

A good place to start would be reading Hebrews if you want to get a fuller understanding of who He really is, and not taking a few verses here and there out of context in order to try to paint Christ as something less than the fullness of what the Bible says He is.

 

[outhouse]

The three elements representing God are present in the OT. God is interchangeably referred to as Elohim or YHVH in the OT. Elohim is used as a more overarching term like one would use the Father, while YHVH is used in places where we see Him interacting with His people in the capacity of meetings, rulings, or acting upon the world. .

actually its well known early Israelites were polytheistic and worshipped a family of deities before the bible was redacted after 622BC to monotheism.

El was the father in the family pantheon of deities. Yahweh was Els son as was Baal. Asherah the forth major deity Els wife who would later become Yahwehs wife when Yahweh took on all Els attributes by some tribes.

Judaism was dynamic and its worship to deities should not be viewed as a whole, as the culture was wide and varied with different, tribes in the north and south, each having unique scripture that would be later compiled together. Upon research you will find Yahweh who was popular inw ar times was also popular in southern tribes, while El was popular in the north. but even that doesnt paint the proper picture as we are talking about dynamic evolution of beliefs.

the point is, god as you call it was never one concept early on and anyone trying to place the trinity into the OT is sorely mistaken

 

[outhouse]

As regards to the station of Jesus, there are different opinions, mostly because the Bible says different things about Jesus.
I believe Jesus is what the Bible says He is. Nothing Less, Nothing More. I think to understand Jesus station, the best way is to see ALL the statements in Bible regarding Him.
The Bible itself, describes Jesus, as a Prophet, who is an image of God, who is in unity with the father, but the father is greater than the son, and the son says and does whatever and however the Father says, but not from Himself..

and how would these unknown authors who never knew jesus, heard jesus, writing decades after his death who lived in a different culture in a completely different geographic location, know so much about this man?

these unknown authors are what amounts to be jesus enemies. Take Paul, a roman citizen that for who kknows how long hunts down the real apostles and after who knows how long and how many he really gets, decides to become a self proclaimed apostle and then takes the movement away from its roots in judaism, to his roman brothers, the people reponsible for killing jesus.

these same god-fearering romans/gentiles far removed from jesus version of judaism, then create their own theology and version of jesus and his theology matching their needs and write a roman version of judaism describing their hero their way.

all other works cherry picked for content and destroyed, and to the oppressors of judaism, go the spoils.


So how is it the bible got all this information about jesus correct you state?

 

[F0uad]

and how would these unknown authors who never knew jesus, heard jesus, writing decades after his death who lived in a different culture in a completely different geographic location, know so much about this man?

these unknown authors are what amounts to be jesus enemies. Take Paul, a roman citizen that for who kknows how long hunts down the real apostles and after who knows how long and how many he really gets, decides to become a self proclaimed apostle and then takes the movement away from its roots in judaism, to his roman brothers, the people reponsible for killing jesus.

these same god-fearering romans/gentiles far removed from jesus version of judaism, then create their own theology and version of jesus and his theology matching their needs and write a roman version of judaism describing their hero their way.

all other works cherry picked for content and destroyed, and to the oppressors of judaism, go the spoils.


So how is it the bible got all this information about jesus correct you state?

Good points.

 

[sojourner]

and how would these unknown authors who never knew jesus, heard jesus, writing decades after his death who lived in a different culture in a completely different geographic location, know so much about this man?

these unknown authors are what amounts to be jesus enemies. Take Paul, a roman citizen that for who kknows how long hunts down the real apostles and after who knows how long and how many he really gets, decides to become a self proclaimed apostle and then takes the movement away from its roots in judaism, to his roman brothers, the people reponsible for killing jesus.

these same god-fearering romans/gentiles far removed from jesus version of judaism, then create their own theology and version of jesus and his theology matching their needs and write a roman version of judaism describing their hero their way.

all other works cherry picked for content and destroyed, and to the oppressors of judaism, go the spoils.


So how is it the bible got all this information about jesus correct you state?

Except that Paul's conversion took place probably about 18 months after the Jesus Event, and his persecutions weren't done on behalf of Rome, they were done on behalf of the Judaic religious authorities. Persecuting Christians for 18 months doesn't constitute "who knows how long," and Paul wasn't in cahoots with Rome, he was in cahoots with Judaica.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

and how would these unknown authors who never knew jesus, heard jesus, writing decades after his death who lived in a different culture in a completely different geographic location, know so much about this man?

these unknown authors are what amounts to be jesus enemies. Take Paul, a roman citizen that for who kknows how long hunts down the real apostles and after who knows how long and how many he really gets, decides to become a self proclaimed apostle and then takes the movement away from its roots in judaism, to his roman brothers, the people reponsible for killing jesus.

these same god-fearering romans/gentiles far removed from jesus version of judaism, then create their own theology and version of jesus and his theology matching their needs and write a roman version of judaism describing their hero their way.

all other works cherry picked for content and destroyed, and to the oppressors of judaism, go the spoils.

Well, Is there an agreement about the above among scholars?

So how is it the bible got all this information about jesus correct you state?

the Most important part of New Testament is the 4 Gospels. Those were written by disciple of Christ.
The rest are mostly written by Paul. I believe the teachings of Jesus was trasmitted to paul. Also, there is an element of belief in "inspiration". Which I don't expect that to be taken as a proof, but its possibility can also not be rejected.
However, the New Testament generally teach the same concepts. Fudamentally it does not contradict itself. Paul is also saying the same concepts.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The three elements representing God are present in the OT. God is interchangeably referred to as Elohim or YHVH in the OT. Elohim is used as a more overarching term like one would use the Father, while YHVH is used in places where we see Him interacting with His people in the capacity of meetings, rulings, or acting upon the world.
His Holy Spirit is referred to as the Ruach Hakodesh, and is referenced as a distinct entity in places like Genesis.
　
Jesus is not "just" referred to as a prophet in the bible. He is THE prophet. He is also THE king over heaven and earth, THE judge, THE high priest (mediator between God and man, the one who atones for our sins, as patterned in the old testament rituals), THE sacrifice, the only way to the Father, the one whom through all was created, the one who pre-existed with the Father before the creation of the World.
He refers to himself as "I am", which is the term God used of himself with Moses. Which is why when he said this the people looked to stone him for having said it.
What you mistake for confusing stations is actually just revelation about the fullness of the many facets of who He is as God made manifest to us.

A good place to start would be reading Hebrews if you want to get a fuller understanding of who He really is, and not taking a few verses here and there out of context in order to try to paint Christ as something less than the fullness of what the Bible says He is.

I think one thing to consider is that, the Trinity was an additional doctrine that was invented many years later to explain Father, Son, Holy Spirit. But it was not part of teachings of Jesus originally.
The problem with Trinity; it says God has three parts, as if God is a materialistic thing that can be divided into parts.
Specially If Jesus was a part of God, then one part does not know everything:


"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

That is not the God of OT who is all-knowing.
Jesus was the Prophet of the Age He appeared in. Through Him, the attributes and Will of God appeared to the World. As a Mirror that reflects the Splendor of the Sun. The Sun that appeared Yesterday is the Sun that appears today, and is the Sun that appears tomorrow. The Sun is analogy for God whose attributes is Manifested through His Prophets in every Age. Jesus said: "before Abraham I was", that is the Unity of Prophets, through them attributes and Will of God appeared in every Age.
Of course each prophet appeared with a different mission, some had a greater mission, and thus they appeared greater that others.
The return of Elijah which appeared as the Person of John the Baptist is a proof of the concept of "Appearance of the same attributes" in a new Mirror in a different Age.

 

[outhouse]

Except that Paul's conversion took place probably about 18 months after the Jesus Event, and his persecutions weren't done on behalf of Rome, they were done on behalf of the Judaic religious authorities. Persecuting Christians for 18 months doesn't constitute "who knows how long," and Paul wasn't in cahoots with Rome, he was in cahoots with Judaica.

How do we know it was 18 months after jesus death?

We dont know who hired him, and romans were running the temple placing Caiaphas in power. I agree it might have been the Saducees, but they were hand in hand with the romans, sharing profits to stay in power.


I dont think paul was in Cahoots with rome or judaism, he was in Cahoots for himself, and he was someone who couldnt shut up, about himself. Paul talks a lot about Paul. And Paul took his movement straight to his roman/gentile brothers throwing out jewish law as he pleased. As any other god-fearer would do.

I do not trust pauls judaism, and im not sure he was a god-fearer, but im definatley not sure he wasnt a god-fearer. Remember romans had worshipped judaism for generations and believed they were in fact jews, just not full fledged converted jews. Paul adherance to Noahide laws matches a god-fearer as well so does his message and behaviour. He didnt take his message to jews as if he was a devoted Pharisee, exactly like jesus did, No! he took it straight to god-fearers

 

[outhouse]

Well, Is there an agreement about the above among scholars?
.

Sorry bud, that is almost unanimous, its not even debated.

the Most important part of New Testament is the 4 Gospels. Those were written by disciple of Christ.

Nope, there positive it was not the disciples.

Ask yourself this, why would oppressed jews living below poverty take and write a beautiful message for their captors? and not keep jesus message in judaism like their leader did?

The rest are mostly written by Paul. I believe the teachings of Jesus was trasmitted to paul. Also, there is an element of belief in "inspiration". Which I don't expect that to be taken as a proof, but its possibility can also not be rejected.
However, the New Testament generally teach the same concepts. Fudamentally it does not contradict itself. Paul is also saying the same concepts

How could jesus message even be known by paul ? he doesnt even start writing about jesus until 15 years after his death. He never met jesus, he never heard jesus, he flat claims he recieved no message from man [jesus real followers] that his message was inspired from within himself. he also did not live anywhere near where jesus grew up, and lived a life of a decent roman owning a little buisiness and being well educated.

jeus was a poverty stricken galilean who lived a life below that of a peasant, pennyless, he traveled Galilee ONLY preaching and healing in small villages for food scraps to survive. he was completely unknown until after his death, and the events in the temple over money are what made him famous. he hated the roman corruption in the temple which served as the jewish governement and treasury.

 

[Rise]

InvestigateTruth, your view of Christ does not stand up to the fullness of what scripture reveals about Him. An accurate picture of Jesus requires being able to reconcile your views with ALL of scripture, not just cherrypicking a handful of verses and taking them out of context.
　
The scriptures tell us all of the following things about Jesus very clearly, none of which can be reonciled to your view that he was only a prophet whose only purpose was to reveal to us the Father. That was one of his roles, but only one facet of the fact that His role encompasses everything:
He existed in eternity before creation
He created all things
He is one with the Father
He was born without human conception by the Holy Spirit.
He is the messiah the prophets foretold.
He is the savior of the world, who takes our sins away and restores us to right relationship with God
He died and was raised from the dead.
He ascended to the throne at the right hand of the Father.
He is our eternal high priest, the eternal mediator between God and man.
He is lord. He is King over all heaven and earth.
He is the one who judges all men.
He is the cornerstone that everything is built on.
We are called to conform to His image and submit to His rulership.
It is He who sends the Holy Spirit to us.
He will return for us.
He will then rule and reign over the earth with us.
　
Posting all the scriptures that demonstrate all that would probably take a week, because that basically sums up the entirety of new testament scripture that ever mentions anything about Christ himself. It would be easier for me to just tell you to actually read the bible - Because I guarantee if you try to reoncile your view of Christ with everything that is revealed about Him then you will be forced to change your view of who Christ is and what His role is.

I can throw out a few of them to get you going, but this is not really even scratching the surface of all the ways that your view of Jesus can't be reconciled with the full body of scripture:


Matthew 21
4 This happened that what was spoken by the prophet might be fulfilled, saying,
5 Say to the Daughter of Zion [inhabitants of Jerusalem], Behold, your King is coming to you, lowly and riding on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a donkey [a beast of burden

John 1
48 Nathanael said to him, “How do you know me?” Jesus answered him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” 49 Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” 50 Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” 51 And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

John 8
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am , you will die in your sins.”

He refers to himself as "I am", which is how he revealed himself to Moses as "I am".

1 Timothy 1
16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.


1 Timothy 6
14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

　
Mark 13
25 And the stars will be falling from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great (kingly) power and glory (majesty and splendor).
27 And then He will send out the angels and will gather together His elect (those He has picked out for Himself) from the four winds, from the farthest bounds of the earth to the farthest bounds of heaven.

Romans 5
16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Acts 2
32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that all we [His disciples] are witnesses.
33 Being therefore lifted high by and to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promised [blessing which is the] Holy Spirit, He has made this outpouring which you yourselves both see and hear.
34 For David did not ascend into the heavens; yet he himself says, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand and share My throne
35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.
36 Therefore let the whole house of Israel recognize beyond all doubt and acknowledge assuredly that God has made Him both Lord and Christ (the Messiah)—this Jesus Whom you crucified.

Hebrews 1
But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy."

Hebrews 1
He also says,
"In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end."


Hebrews 2
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Hebrews 7
23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
These verses only scratch the surface.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

InvestigateTruth, your view of Christ does not stand up to the fullness of what scripture reveals about Him. An accurate picture of Jesus requires being able to reconcile your views with ALL of scripture, not just cherrypicking a handful of verses and taking them out of context.
　
The scriptures tell us all of the following things about Jesus very clearly, none of which can be reonciled to your view that he was only a prophet whose only purpose was to reveal to us the Father. That was one of his roles, but only one facet of the fact that His role encompasses everything:
He existed in eternity before creation
He created all things
He is one with the Father
He was born without human conception by the Holy Spirit.
He is the messiah the prophets foretold.
He is the savior of the world, who takes our sins away and restores us to right relationship with God
He died and was raised from the dead.
He ascended to the throne at the right hand of the Father.
He is our eternal high priest, the eternal mediator between God and man.
He is lord. He is King over all heaven and earth.
He is the one who judges all men.
He is the cornerstone that everything is built on.
We are called to conform to His image and submit to His rulership.
It is He who sends the Holy Spirit to us.
He will return for us.
He will then rule and reign over the earth with us.

Hi Rise, I don't think you understood my view. If you are interested I would like to explain it farther for you, before you make a conclusion for yourself. As for me, I am aware of the Trinity...
However, I am interested to discuss with you farther, the view I gave you, and show you how it reconciles every single verse of Bible regarding Jesus.
To do that, please choose one of the following two options:
1- please for each one of the above, starting from
"He existed in eternity before creation"
to
"He will then rule and reign over the earth with us."

Support each one, with at least a verse of Bible.

Or,

2- Just place any verse from Bible regarding Jesus, then I show you how the view I gave you reconciles it. (your choice to choose a verse)

I prefer the second option as it saves time.


And Also be sure that I have read the Bible many times. and be sure I have discussed this view many times with others before.
I understand what I am telling you, appears new to you, as you are used to Trinity. But like I said Trinity was an invention of church which was added later on. But whatever I tell you, is ONLY from Bible.

- Peace

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

So with other words communties had the power to change religious scripture as how they see fit?

Small communities were Christianity.
It was faith leaders in these small communities who were to write the Scriptures, that were later compiled into what we now call the Bible.
Christians came before the new scripture
new Scripture came before the Bible.

Not every thing that was written as new Christian Scripture was include in the Bible.

No one Knew everything that Jesus taught, so there are differences between the scriptures.
People could only write what they had been taught or had been reported to them. There is no certainty that any of the authors were taught directly by Jesus.

 

[Rise]

I am not even talking about the trinity, and never brought that up, when saying your view of Jesus is not consistent with scripture.
Scripture shows that He has a unique trascendent place in eternity that no one else will ever equal, that he is not just a prophet for an era. So we don't even have to get into the issue of the trinity before I can show your view of him isn't consistent with scripture.
I already gave you some scriptures to get you started. There's so many I hardly know here to start. Pretty much the entire book of hebrews and revelations, most of romans, large chunks of the gospels, and many revelations throughout all the epistles.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I am not even talking about the trinity, and never brought that up, when saying your view of Jesus is not consistent with scripture
Scripture shows that He has a unique trascendent place in eternity that no one else will ever equal, that he is not just a prophet for an era. So we don't even have to get into the issue of the trinity before I can show your view of him isn't consistent with scripture.
I already gave you some scriptures to get you started. There's so many I hardly know here to start. Pretty much the entire book of hebrews and revelations, most of romans, large chunks of the gospels, and many revelations throughout all the epistles.

Well, this is your view, and how you interpret the scriptures.
I still do not see how your view matches with OT view of God.
For example this is what NT says:
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12
So, being son of God is not just given to One Person, Jesus. Thus, Jesus although in His generation was the only son, but that does not mean forever.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

InvestigateTruth, your view of Christ does not stand up to the fullness of what scripture reveals about Him. An accurate picture of Jesus requires being able to reconcile your views with ALL of scripture, not just cherrypicking a handful of verses and taking them out of context.
　
The scriptures tell us all of the following things about Jesus very clearly, none of which can be reonciled to your view that he was only a prophet whose only purpose was to reveal to us the Father. That was one of his roles, but only one facet of the fact that His role encompasses everything:
He existed in eternity before creation

He created all things

Ok, so let's take your statement: He created all things

But that is not what Gen 1:1 says:
​

​

​

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Gen 1:1

It says God created the heaven and the earth, not Jesus.
So, that is the contradiction. How do you reconcil this?
​

 

[Rise]

　
I'm happy to discuss this with you. Going point by point does make it easier.

For example this is what NT says:
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12
So, being son of God is not just given to One Person, Jesus. Thus, Jesus although in His generation was the only son, but that does not mean forever.

John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [e]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

"only begotten" is "monogenes", which more precisely as a word means that He is the only one of His kind.

Romans 8 outlines this in more detail for us. It is only by "belonging to Christ Jesus" that we are given the Holy Spirit, allowing us to have a mind governed and led by the Spirit. We are then considered co-hiers with Christ, Sons of God by adoption due to our union with His The Son.
　

Ok, so let's take your statement: He created all things

But that is not what Gen 1:1 says:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Gen 1:1

It says God created the heaven and the earth, not Jesus.
So, that is the contradiction. How do you reconcil this?

　
John 1:3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
...
14 And the Word became flesh, and [k]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [l]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me [m]has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’"
(Note that John was actually born before Jesus, yet he says Jesus existed before Him)
　
John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,[a] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
　
Colossians 1:
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by[f] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I'm happy to discuss this with you.

Me too.

Going point by point does make it easier.

Yes.

John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [e]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

"only begotten" is "monogenes", which more precisely as a word means that He is the only one of His kind.

Romans 8 outlines this in more detail for us. It is only by "belonging to Christ Jesus" that we are given the Holy Spirit, allowing us to have a mind governed and led by the Spirit.

Well, I understand your interpretation. This is another way to interpret it.

We are then considered co-hiers with Christ, Sons of God by adoption due to our union with His The Son.

True. But even before Jesus, it seems there were others who became sons of God:

"That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair;"　 Gen. 6:2

If Jesus is the only way, we can become sons of God, then why OT also refers to those who had faith in God, as sons of God?

John 1:3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
...

Yes, the verses are true. But how would we reconcile these with what OT says:
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" Deut. 6:4

So, now if Jesus was also God. And the Lord in OT was One God. Seems like a contradiction to me.

But Now considering other verses in NT, I think the contradiction is reconciled:

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature" - Colossians 1:14-15

Therefore in this analogy, if Jesus is the Mirror, and God is the Sun, we can see the image of the Sun in the Mirror. We see attributes and image of God in Jesus.
Therefore if we look at the mirror, we can say that we see the Sun, but that does not mean the Sun moved inside the Mirror. There is still Only One Sun. There is still Only One God.
On the other hand we can say that is a Mirror, but not the Sun, as the Sun is not physically in the Mirror, but its image is.

Likewise Jesus said whoever has seen Me, has seen the Father, the Creator, as the Image of God appears in the Mirror of Jesus. And at the same time He said, He is son of man, a prophet who only says what God tells Him, because as the Mirror, He only reflected the Word of God.
According to NT, any Person has a physical Body, and a spiritual body.
But in addition to that, there is a Spirit, which is called "the Holy Spirit".
Jesus in addition to the physical Body, and spiritual body He also had the "Holy Spirit" as part of His nature.

"And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased." Luke 3:22

The above verse, uses symbolism, to express the ascension of Holy Spirit on Jesus like a dove.


His physical body and spiritual body, did not exist prior to His born of mary. However the "Holy Spirit" always existed and was presented even before Birth of Jesus. See OT. There are many verses that confirms Holy Spirit had ascended to Others before Jesus.

It is this Holy Spirit, which is like a Mirror that reflects the Image of God fully.
It is this Holy Spirit that the Will and Power of God is expressed through it. God Created everything through the Power of Holy Spirit.
Also the ascension of Holy Spirit is not a physical reality. It is spiritual inspiration.
For example OT says:

"And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding" Exod. 31:3


Thus when NT says, He always existed, it is talking about "The Holy Spirit" part of Jesus, not His physical body or individual soul.
And when NT says, in the beginning was the "Word", that is because, the Word of God always appeared through Holy Spirit to every True Prophet of God.