loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
Sounds like the same brainwashed blabbers spouted by the other side.
Sorry.
Not really - he explains each of those points with factual evidence.
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Israel Palestine Conflict?
- Thread starter F0uad
- Start date
Not really - he explains each of those points with factual evidence.
Rakhel
Well-Known Member
Eli Yishia and Gilad Sharon are about as Anti-Arab as it comes, however, can you say "one bad apple does not spoil the barrel"? Seriously, if I choose I could find one of the Arab ministers yelling about Israel's eventual downfall, or start quoting the Hamas Charter.
As for the starting of this particular conflict, I can find an article that states that Hamas started this by declaring to Sudan that they(Sudan) will be avenged for the destruction of an arms factory that Israel supposedly destroyed.
People keep talking about this Jabari assassination, but wasn't it just one of the many rockets that fell that killed him? I wouldn't call that an assassination. I would call that a casulty of war.
As for truces that Hamas is willing to initiate? Seems they only want to initiate a truce AFTER Israel retaliates on the many rockets fired from Gaza.
As to point 5(which is more of an opinion that a fact) I can only say that both sides seem to think that military action is the only way to win the prize. Will this benefit everyone in the long run? I don't know. I don't know of anyone that does.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Trust me when i say this: Debating or discussing with a Jew and you willl always lose they are just to smart even if you are right.
Israel can succesfully defend itself from missles after buying a defense-system from America so why did they keep bombing gaza? Is it in revenge or to see more blood or to send a message?
Israel can succesfully defend itself from missles after buying a defense-system from America so why did they keep bombing gaza? Is it in revenge or to see more blood or to send a message?
Apex
Somewhere Around Nothing
Maybe it is to make them stop firing missiles? Just because they can shoot (some of) the missiles out of the sky does not give Hamas a free pass to fire as many as they wish.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
So now Israel can stop the fire from Hamas so why keep sending bombs to innocent civilians? Please answer me..
Rakhel
Well-Known Member
So now Israel can stop the fire from Hamas they are clear to do whatever they want.. again what is the message?
And what's the message the Palestinians are trying to send?
I know, I know, it's rude to answer a question with a question, however it is the only answer.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Yeah give us freedom or we will take it with force. Now what does Israel say?
You know most of the time i like Jews and i really mean that, even religiously speaking we are brothers. But this One-Sided claims against Palestinians makes me sick.
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Rakhel
Well-Known Member
Just as this one-sided, "We are the victim of Israeli aggression" and "Israel is the big bad evil." makes me sick.
Both sides need to take responsibility for their actions because all of this, "Nah-uh! He started it!" nonsense doesn't get anyone anywhere
jazzymom
Just Jewish
Because hamas is still sending rockets into Israel. Israel has put up with rockets for months now and enough is enough........
If hamas wants Israel to stop then stop shooting rockets into Israel....
Since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005, terrorists have fired more than 8,000 rockets into Israel. Over one million Israelis are currently living under threat of rocket attacks.
Hamas Rocket Threat Ranges Map
In 2011 alone, 630 rockets from Gaza hit Israeli towns. Thats an even higher number than in 2010, when 231 rockets hit Israel. Since 2001, more than 12,800 rockets and mortars, an average of 3 attacks every single day, have landed in Israel.
jazzymom
Just Jewish
So now Israel can stop the fire from Hamas so why keep sending bombs to innocent civilians? Please answer me..
So you think a civilian population should live under the threat of rocket fire? Hamas is still sending rockets towards civilian populations.
Are you saying a sovereign country should have to put up with extremists sending rockets into their country?
Hamas is in control of Gaza and makes no attempt to stop the rockets coming from Gaza into Israel.
Clearly civilian populations should not have to live in bomb shelters or in terror that the rockets will come they just don't know when.
It is terror and it is unacceptable.
Vile Atheist
Loud and Obnoxious
I have thought about this long and hard and perhaps I should preface what I'm about to say with that I'm Canadian and so I have no horse in this race. The way I see it is this:
1. Israel unequivocally has a right to defend itself, just as any other sovereign nation does. But that defence has to be proportional. I support the fact that Israel has Iron Dome which allows it to shoot most of the rockets out of the sky. Israelis should not have to live with the fear of a rocket coming down on them. If a rocket hits Israel, they are more than justified in retaliating, but a few rockets hitting does not warrant the destruction of Gaza and the killing of hundreds of Palestinians, mostly civilians. The Israeli response to this incident is overkill and well beyond proportional. To say Israel is just "sending a message" ignores the dozens of innocent Palestinian civilians who have been killed in this latest incident of violence. That "right to defend itself" only exists within Israel's de jure 1967 borders because anything it occupies beyond that is illegal in international law.
2. But the way the Palestinians see it is that Israel is illegally occupying their land. That's not just my opinion, that's the UN's (who, might I add, authorized the creation of Israel in the first place). UN Security Council Resolution 446 (1979) said that "that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East". You are not "defending yourself" if you are illegally occupying someone else's land and they fight back. It's like arguing the Soviets had a right to defend themselves when they occupied Poland and local Poles fought back against it.
3. It's clear that the international community considers Israel's 1967 borders as their de jure borders and anything Israel has occupied beyond that since 1967 is illegal. In my opinion, if the Palestinians strike these illegal Israeli settlements, they are justified. They are only fighting to reclaim their lands that are illegally-occupied. They are not justified in killing or injuring Israeli civilians, BUT, often in these settlements, the settlers are armed and attack Palestinians (and vice-versa). In a sense, they are paramilitary. Fighting against these people is justified, but not unarmed Israeli civilians.
4. Hamas' tactics of firing from within civilian areas is highly cowardly and a major factor in high civilian Palestinian casualties (though that doesn't absolve Israel from blame). Hamas needs to cease attacking Israel within its 1967 borders. The international community needs to enforce those 1967 borders. Personally, as the Israel occupation outside of the 1967 borders is illegal, Hamas is perfectly justified in attempting to take back Palestinian territory.
5. The only way there will be peace is with a two-state solution with mutual recognition, Israel reverting back to its 1967 borders and lifting the blockades and checkpoints within the West Bank and Gaza, Hamas agreeing to no longer attack Israel and to stop any civilian groups who try, and above all, an enforced ceasefire, perhaps with UN troops.
1. Israel unequivocally has a right to defend itself, just as any other sovereign nation does. But that defence has to be proportional. I support the fact that Israel has Iron Dome which allows it to shoot most of the rockets out of the sky. Israelis should not have to live with the fear of a rocket coming down on them. If a rocket hits Israel, they are more than justified in retaliating, but a few rockets hitting does not warrant the destruction of Gaza and the killing of hundreds of Palestinians, mostly civilians. The Israeli response to this incident is overkill and well beyond proportional. To say Israel is just "sending a message" ignores the dozens of innocent Palestinian civilians who have been killed in this latest incident of violence. That "right to defend itself" only exists within Israel's de jure 1967 borders because anything it occupies beyond that is illegal in international law.
2. But the way the Palestinians see it is that Israel is illegally occupying their land. That's not just my opinion, that's the UN's (who, might I add, authorized the creation of Israel in the first place). UN Security Council Resolution 446 (1979) said that "that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East". You are not "defending yourself" if you are illegally occupying someone else's land and they fight back. It's like arguing the Soviets had a right to defend themselves when they occupied Poland and local Poles fought back against it.
3. It's clear that the international community considers Israel's 1967 borders as their de jure borders and anything Israel has occupied beyond that since 1967 is illegal. In my opinion, if the Palestinians strike these illegal Israeli settlements, they are justified. They are only fighting to reclaim their lands that are illegally-occupied. They are not justified in killing or injuring Israeli civilians, BUT, often in these settlements, the settlers are armed and attack Palestinians (and vice-versa). In a sense, they are paramilitary. Fighting against these people is justified, but not unarmed Israeli civilians.
4. Hamas' tactics of firing from within civilian areas is highly cowardly and a major factor in high civilian Palestinian casualties (though that doesn't absolve Israel from blame). Hamas needs to cease attacking Israel within its 1967 borders. The international community needs to enforce those 1967 borders. Personally, as the Israel occupation outside of the 1967 borders is illegal, Hamas is perfectly justified in attempting to take back Palestinian territory.
5. The only way there will be peace is with a two-state solution with mutual recognition, Israel reverting back to its 1967 borders and lifting the blockades and checkpoints within the West Bank and Gaza, Hamas agreeing to no longer attack Israel and to stop any civilian groups who try, and above all, an enforced ceasefire, perhaps with UN troops.
the view of media in the west: sanction Gaza and killing innocent by israeli , is defend
, killing innocent by Hamas is terrorism .
if the some criminals inside isreal among israeli civilian ,in that case , would israeli army used the heavey weapon (bombs) and plans among it civilians ? of course NO .
that why i called israeli state and army is racism and terrorism regime .
, killing innocent by Hamas is terrorism .
if the some criminals inside isreal among israeli civilian ,in that case , would israeli army used the heavey weapon (bombs) and plans among it civilians ? of course NO .
that why i called israeli state and army is racism and terrorism regime .
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
That's simply not true. The high profile reporting of Robert Fiske is just one example
I'm against all violence. I do not agree with Israeli bombing of Gaza nor do I agree with Hamas firing rockets at Israel.
Such a view is simply not helpful. Unless one wants to perpetuate a cycle of violence.
So you and I should just stop talking? Antisemitic slights are less than helpful, F0uad.
What is meant by proportional defense? Are you suggesting that Israel launch a rocket or mortar against some random civilian target in Gaza for each rocket or mortar launched at Israeli civilian centers from Gaza? And, should it once again devolve to this, does it mean bombing bus for bus, falafel stand for falafel stand, etc.? And, finally, would proportionality mandate ignoring the build-up of Iranian armaments, command and control centers, and similar targets?
I have a family member in a convalescent home in Be'er Sheva, a city under increasing random attack over the past few years. There is simply no way she can get to a shelter in the allotted time when the sirens start. She must simply sit or lie there and hope that the randomness of each attack works in her favor. From her perspective - and I fully and sincerely understand that her's is not the only narrative - the options (short of peace) very much appear to be between living daily with that danger and uncertainty or doing everything possible to undermine Hamas' willingness and ability to continue and/or condone these attacks.
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sandandfoam
Veteran Member
At some point in time this is going to be settled and it will be settled with talk not rockets.
It seems to me that the first thing that needs to happen is Hamas need to stop firing rockets.
It seems to me that the first thing that needs to happen is Hamas need to stop firing rockets.
Zoe Doidge
Basically a Goddess
Just in case anyone hasn't seen it, looks like we have a Thursday deadline for some sort of peace agreement.
I'm just now listening to CNN's Wolf Blitzer who is reporting that a number of missiles have just hit residential Be'er Sheva. I've not been able to confirm this but, if true, it should show up on Ynetnews and Haaretz soon ...
Dingbat
Avatar of Brittania
I hope not. Your family will be in my prayers Jayhawker.
Flankerl
Well-Known Member
>1. Israel Was Forced to Respond to Rockets to Defend Its Citizens
Lets ignore that over 100 rockets were sent to Israeli cities on the 11th November. Good.
>2. Israel Tries to Avoid Civilian Casualties
Lets ignore the SMS, phone calls and leaflets to the people in Gaza warning them to be close to terrorists, weapon storages and so on. And of course that they are sometimes advised to leave a certain area because of future IDF activity.
Also just yesterday the IDF took over the Hamas frequencies so now the people are even warned over the radio.
Evil zionists.
>3. This Is About Security
The author talks about that no rockets were fired at southern Israel on the 11th November.
Yeah thats a lie. Nice truce if they still fire over 100 rockets at israeli cities.
>4. Hamas Is the Problem
Yeah Hamas is the problem. They want to be the ones in power in Gaza? Good then they should exterminate all the other terrorists so that no guy from the islamic jihad or whatever they are called can jeopardise peace talks by firing rockets.
Terrorist logic.
>5. There is a Military Solution to this Conflict
Some people only understand power.
But Gaza is free. Israel has no obligation at all to open its border to gaza. Perhaps you should ask yourself why egypt wont open its border to gaza.
Dont even try to use logic on them.