Did Jesus say he was God???

Shermana · Dec 27, 2011

Your opinion

.

We are here to debate the specifics. You have repeatedly refused to provide a post which you feel adequately defends the case.

Christ's Deity is taught in the Bible

No it's not, as we've proven. Unless you use the word "deity" to refer to lower-case g gods.

and has been taught by Biblical Christianity through the ages.

Being taught by an organized power structure doesn't mean it's the truth, especially one replete with interpolations in its text to promote such doctrine. It has been preached against by various movements. When you say "Biblical Christianity", that term is relative, since for the grand majority of history, it was teaching something akin to works based salvation which you don't agree with.

I believe the whole Bible.

That's fine, but for objective scholarly debate, the individual books and epistles and passages are up to the chopping block.

There is only one God.

There is only one Supreme God, only one "god of the gods". The word "gods" is used often in Psalms, and the Septuagint translates it as "Angels". Justin Martyr and Iraneus and other early Christians referred to Jesus as "a god" in the Anarthrous as well. You are ultimately sidestepping Basic Grammar with your Theological presumptions, and misunderstanding the meaning of Isaiah as well.

Almost every translation says the Word was God

And almost every translation is written by Trinitarians for a Trinitarian audience. Meanwhile, numerous independent scholarly works say otherwise. Some of the most highly educated Trinitarians say that "Word was G-d" implies Modalism and prefer "Word was Divine" instead. Appealing to majority does not equal truth.

.I believe the whole Bible

The protestant Canon that is.

and understand scripture in light of all the scripture.

Obviously not.

I have answered that.

No you haven't.

I do good works

Like what exactly?

,

not out of guilt, obligation or fear of punishment, but out of love for him who first loved me and died for me,

Name some of these specific works. We've been over this, you seem to NEVER answer this question.

because I am set free and deeply loved, I love others. A

ny kindness to others out of love is a good work and includes thousands and thousands of different deeds.

You said that these works are the "fruit of Salvation". Once again, for the upteenth time (probably this question has been asked more than 19 times to you alone by now), what KINDS of works are EXCLUSIVE to the saved Christian that unsaved Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, and such aren't able to do? Name some of these "thousands and thousands" of deeds.

James said that Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

And once again (and probably again and again), Abraham actually did a work in the process. You are flat out ignoring the rest of what James says.

He said that if a man SAY he has faith but has no works, he does not have faith but is only SAYING he does.

Yes but...

One who has faith will have works as a result.

Do you understand what "Justified BY works" means? There's no way any honest reading can get James to mean anything differently than what he's saying at face value. You have to dishonestly twist what James is saying to get this conclusion, and you have yet to explain what kinds of works are EXCLUSIVE to the saved Christian that the unsaved are unable to perform.

Faith comes first and we are saved by faith in Christ, works follow as a result.

That's not at all what James says, no matter how many times you repeat this. He says "Justified BY works". There's no way anyone remotely honest can avoid the fact that he's saying that one is justified BECAUSE of their works. The word is "By" which means "because of/due to". The fact that you continuously avoid addressing the question of what KINDS of works are to follow further demonstrates this lack of an honest objective reading on your part.

And his commands are to believe in Him whom He has sent, and to love God and each other. Only believers can do the last two.

So you're saying that Muslims and Native Americans who believe in the Great Spirit are unable to "love" G-d and their neighbor? You ultimately avoid addressing 1 John 5:3, each time, which says "The love of G-d is obedience to his commandments". And Jesus says all the commandments HANG on those 2, that means they can be categorized into those 2. If you love G-d, you'll obey his commandments. If you love your neighbor, you'll obey all the commandments. Not stealing and not defrauding HANGS on loving your neighbor. Obeying Sabbath and wearing Tassels and not worshiping Idols are examples of showing love to G-d.

They were rich folks who lost their passion and zeal for God and for spreading the Gospel of Grace.

Do you have any link that backs your position or are you prepared to admit this is purely your own interpretation?

John 6:37: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

So do you think this mean Anyone and everyone who claims to believe in Jesus is someone the Father sent to him? Your interpretation clashes with your own interpretation of Matthew 7:22-23 here, since Jesus will in "no wise cast out" anyone no matter what. But apparently you put a limit on how one perceives Jesus? Are you saying one has to do more than call Jesus "Lord"?

Those in Mathew 7 were trying to get in by their good works instead of faith in Christ.

No, the exact opposite. "Doers of Lawlessness" means "Those against Mosaic Law". Like yourself for example.

Christ is my righteousness

Then you don't understand what Righteousness means.

and because I trusted in him and his finished work on the cross

How exactly is the "work finished" in your terms if there was still much work to do afterwards? Why did Paul say "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling?" Why did James say that Faith alone does not save?

to have paid my sin-debt, he now works in me and conforms me to his image.

Click to expand...

Oh he conforms you to his image? In what ways exactly? Are you saying he is transforming you to act like him? Are you aware that your sin-debt according to the ending of James and Hebrews 10:26 can still come back to haunt you? Why does James say that by "correcting your brother you will cover a great deal of your own sins"?

Me neither.

Click to expand...

Your definition of "lawlessness" differs.

Shermana · Dec 27, 2011

Totally different in reference to interpretations.

How so exactly? Why does "G-d with us" mean a different type of context than "G-d strengthens"?

That is just one reference to Jesus that identifies His diety and equal nature with God The Father.

I don't see how it necessarily identifies "His deity and equal nature". What does "Equal nature" actually mean? This word rarely if ever gets identified when asked.

When you compare the totality of Jesus' life, death and ressurection, you have to acknowledge there is something special about Jesus.

I have never said there was NOT something special about Jesus. That doesn't change the context of his name however. As the highest angel and incarnation of the Divine Wisdom mentioned in the Wisdom of Solomon and writings of Philo, he is certainly something special, but he is not the same being as the Father himself, nor is he "one person of the Godhead".

We can't say the same about Ezekial, who was a messenger (prophet) of God, whom "God strengthened". Jesus is God. No comparison.

Jesus is NOT G-d. He is "a god" (i.e. an angel according to how the Septuagint and early Church Fathers translated "gods/a god").. You're right that you can't compare Ezekiel to the Incarnation of the Holy Logos and Wisdom of G-d, but that doesn't change the context in how to read names. Do you really think that in the context of Isaiah, he was meaning to say by "Immanuel" that "G-d will exist among us"? Of course not. This is an example of Trinitarian misreadings of OT scriptures. Theological presumptions based on post 2nd century gentile church teachings do not trump the intended context. Maybe in organized church structures they do.

blueman · Dec 27, 2011

Shermana said:
How so exactly? Why does "G-d with us" mean a different type of context than "G-d strengthens"?

I don't see how it necessarily identifies "His deity and equal nature". What does "Equal nature" actually mean? This word rarely if ever gets identified when asked.

I have never said there was NOT something special about Jesus. That doesn't change the context of his name however. As the highest angel and incarnation of the Divine Wisdom mentioned in the Wisdom of Solomon and writings of Philo, he is certainly something special, but he is not the same being as the Father himself, nor is he "one person of the Godhead".
Jesus is NOT G-d. He is "a god" (i.e. an angel according to how the Septuagint and early Church Fathers translated "gods/a god").. You're right that you can't compare Ezekiel to the Incarnation of the Holy Logos and Wisdom of G-d, but that doesn't change the context in how to read names. Do you really think that in the context of Isaiah, he was meaning to say by "Immanuel" that "G-d will exist among us"? Of course not. This is an example of Trinitarian misreadings of OT scriptures. Theological presumptions based on post 2nd century gentile church teachings do not trump the intended context. Maybe in organized church structures they do.

Jesus never characterized Himself as a god (in a pagan sense) nor an angel. Paul in Phillipians 2:5-11 also articulates the belief that Jesus was God and emptied Himself (through the Incarnation) commencing the process reconciling creation with God through His righteous and unblemished sacrifice on the cross.

Shermana · Dec 27, 2011

Jesus never characterized Himself as a god (in a pagan sense) nor an angel

Neither does he ever say He's G-d, as we've conclusively proven, and we have thoroughly debunked the John 8:58 thing. We have also shown conclusively that John 1:1's ANathrous Theos should read as "And the word was a god", just like how in Acts 12:22 it says "Voice of a god". Justin Martyr called Jesus an Angel, as did Origen. It's clear that this was the initial Church Father belief until much later.

. Paul in Phillipians 2:5-11 also articulates the belief that Jesus was God and emptied Himself (through the Incarnation) commencing the process reconciling creation with God through His righteous and unblemished sacrifice on the cross.

Another issue of anathrous Theos (Theou in this case), it should read "Form of a god", this article explains it nicely. If you want to debate the grammatical aspect, feel free.

How would your interpretation define "Form of G-d" exactly, especially when he has to be regarded as "Equal to G-d? (Theo). Hopefully you're familiar with how the Anarthrous issue works so we don't have to go over it.

Examining the Trinity: PHIL 2:6

Another thing we should know about Phil. 2:6, 7 concerns the phrase "of God" (qeou or theou). A perfectly honest alternate translation of this verse can be: "though he was existing in the form of a god [i.e., `a mighty individual' in a similar sense that the Bible calls angels and Israelite judges `gods' - see the DEF and BOWGOD studies]." The NWT does not translate it that way, but grammatically and doctrinally it is a perfectly honest rendering and probably accounts for the 1959 French translation of Phil. 2:6, "being of divine status" and the NEB's "divine nature" and the renderings in Moffatt and the JB. (See the first part of the DEF study which discusses "god/divine.")

This scripture contrasts Jesus as, first, being in "form of god" (morphe theou) and, then, (2:7) being in "form of slave" (morphen doulou). Both of these phrases use the word "form" followed by an anarthrous genitive noun. This means that we are being given a contrast of two grammatical parallels.

If we should decide to translate the second half of this parallel as "form of a slave," then there can be no honest objection on grammatical grounds for translating the first part of this parallel as "form of a god." In fact it would seem more appropriate to translate it this way instead of "form of [the] God."

waitasec · Dec 27, 2011

blueman said:
So a Sovereign God cannot choose to redeem the world the way He sees fit? You drastically disregard His Sovereignty which is as you say, ludicrous!

no, a sovereign god redeems the world the way man sees fit.

javajo · Dec 27, 2011

Shermana said:
You said that these works are the "fruit of Salvation". Once again, for the upteenth time (probably this question has been asked more than 19 times to you alone by now), what KINDS of works are EXCLUSIVE to the saved Christian that unsaved Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, and such aren't able to do? Name some of these "thousands and thousands" of deeds.

Same works. Difference is doing works to earn salvation is dead works while doing those same works OUT OF LOVE because we are loved and freely saved are the good works God loves and made us for, whether we open a door for someone or cure some disease, those works of love because we are loved are true good works.

You ultimately avoid addressing 1 John 5:3, each time, which says "The love of G-d is obedience to his commandments". And Jesus says all the commandments HANG on those 2, that means they can be categorized into those 2. If you love G-d, you'll obey his commandments. If you love your neighbor, you'll obey all the commandments. Not stealing and not defrauding HANGS on loving your neighbor.

I agree with this. The first 4 commandments show us how to love God and the last 6 how to love our neighbor. The Bible says his commandments aren't grievous and they are to believe in him whom I have sent, then love God and love one another and in so doing we fulfill the Law. If you love others you won't steal, lie, covet or kill them and if you love God you will worship him and live a holy life as you grow and mature in the grace of Christ.

So do you think this mean Anyone and everyone who claims to believe in Jesus is someone the Father sent to him? Your interpretation clashes with your own interpretation of Matthew 7:22-23 here, since Jesus will in "no wise cast out" anyone no matter what. But apparently you put a limit on how one perceives Jesus? Are you saying one has to do more than call Jesus "Lord"?

Anyone who comes to Jesus for forgiveness of sins he receives and will never cast out. He also corrects every son whom he receives, which is a painful process we all go through as he molds us into his image, but he promises he will never leave nor forsake us.

No, the exact opposite. "Doers of Lawlessness" means "Those against Mosaic Law". Like yourself for example.

I love the Law, I just understand my relationship to it differently in light of scripture, like Galatians 3.

Then you don't understand what Righteousness means.

I do and I know that all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags to a holy God and we all have sinned and fallen short of his glory. That is why Christ imputes his righteousness unto us when we trust him that he paid the penalty of our sins and he declares us justified before God because of what he did. He paid a debt he did not owe for us who owed a debt we could not pay. Now with his power, we can grow and become more and more righteous as he works in us. Its called sanctification. We have been sanctified, are being sanctified, and will ultimately be sanctified when we are transformed and go to Heaven for a time.

How exactly is the "work finished" in your terms if there was still much work to do afterwards?

When Jesus died he cried out, "It is finished!" He is now seated at the right hand of God, at rest, having completed his works. The works we do are not for salvation but a result.

Why did Paul say "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling?"

We work out the salvation we already have in us because we placed our faith in Christ is what paul meant and fear and trembling is actually awe and reverence.

Why did James say that Faith alone does not save?

James said if you say you have faith but don't, we'll know it by your lack of works.

Oh he conforms you to his image?

Yes.

In what ways exactly? Are you saying he is transforming you to act like him?

We will love and obey God more, we will be like Jesus, we will love people, and do kind things for them, even our enemies, we will exhibit love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, meekness, temperance, etc. We will grow from glory to glory and one day will be transformed to be just like him, totally sinless and immortal.

Are you aware that your sin-debt according to the ending of James and Hebrews 10:26 can still come back to haunt you? Why does James say that by "correcting your brother you will cover a great deal of your own sins"?

Christ paid the penalty for ALL our sins so I understand Hebrew in light that if we believe in Jesus we are saved, but some despised Christ and his sacrifice and went back to the Law to establish their own righteousness and were lost, they never really believed and when persecution for trusting Christ came, they bailed. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. You should really read the whole chapter and book to understand and not take verses out of context. James says, he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. Not your own sins, but you will save him from death and he will turn from his sins, Only Jesus can atone for our or anyone's sins.

Shermana · Dec 27, 2011

Same works. Difference is doing works to earn salvation is dead works while doing those same works OUT OF LOVE because we are loved and freely saved are the good works God loves and made us for, whether we open a door for someone or cure some disease, those works of love because we are loved are true good works.

So are you saying that Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, and others who do good works or act as a physician are only ever doing them for selfish gain while every "saved Christian" does works purely out of love?

I agree with this. The first 4 commandments show us how to love God and the last 6 how to love our neighbor.

There are many more commandments than just the 10.

The Bible says his commandments aren't grievous

They aren't. However, the prohibition on eating pork and not wearing clothes with 2 fibers and wearing tassels and tefelin some may consider cumbersome and think up reasons or go with Theologies that do away with them.

and they are to believe in him whom I have sent, then love God and love one another and in so doing we fulfill the Law.

So by obeying ALL the commandments, every one of them, we fulfill the Law and through each one we show love to G-d or neighbor.

If you love others you won't steal, lie, covet or kill them

You'll also set aside a portion of your field for the poor to glean from for example.

and if you love God you will worship him and live a holy life

What do you think "living a holy life" means exactly?

as you grow and mature in the grace of Christ.
Anyone who comes to Jesus for forgiveness of sins he receives and will never cast out. He also corrects every son whom he receives, which is a painful process we all go through as he molds us into his image, but he promises he will never leave nor forsake us.

Now you're getting somewhat closer, do you understand what makes the process "painful"? He will never leave or forsake one who truly strives for the narrow gate and is obedient to all his teachings.

I love the Law, I just understand my relationship to it differently in light of scripture, like Galatians 3.

It seems Galatians clashes directly with what Jesus taught nonetheless. Not everyone accept the Pauline epistles as Canon, most do since its "Church tradition" nonetheless. The original Nazarenes and Ebionites didn't.

I do and I know that all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags to a holy God and we all have sinned and fallen short of his glory.

I don't think you understand the exact context of the passage you keep referring to with "filthy rags". Isaiah 64:6 has to be read with the rest of the chapter, along with Chapter 66 which says those who eat pork and unclean meats will be left to rot and die. The exact context of Isaiah 64:6 is:

All of us have become like one who is unclean,and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
7No one calls on your name
or strives to lay hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us
and made us waste away because of our sins.

It is referring to a generation that has gone astray. It is not referring to everyone at all times.

That is why Christ imputes his righteousness unto us when we trust him that he paid the penalty of our sins and he declares us justified before God because of what he did.

The intended meaning of "imputes his righteousness" means that those who are TRUE (as in True scotsmen) disciples will live as obediently to the Law as Jesus did. That's the general gist of 1 John. Righteousness means obedience to the commandments in scriptural terms. Thus, a disciple of Jesus will attain a spirit of obedience to the Law. This is the gist of what the New Covenant is according to Jeremiah.

He paid a debt he did not owe for us who owed a debt we could not pay. Now with his power, we can grow and become more and more righteous as he works in us. Its called sanctification. We have been sanctified, are being sanctified, and will ultimately be sanctified when we are transformed and go to Heaven for a time.

Do you consider "we" to be every single of the 2 billion Christians no matter what the specifics of their belief are? Kind of goes against the "Many will be called, few will be chosen" and "broad is the path to righteousness" deal. Hebrews 10;26 says if you continue to sin, you lose this salvation.

When Jesus died he cried out, "It is finished!" He is now seated at the right hand of God, at rest, having completed his works. The works we do are not for salvation but a result.

The "Finished" comment was referring to his Earthly ministry and his life before ressurection, not the necessity of the Law, or he'd be contradicting himself and all he said earlier.

We work out the salvation we already have in us because we placed our faith in Christ is what paul meant and fear and trembling is actually awe and reverence.

This makes no sense. How do you "work out" something you already have in you? What was Paul trying to say exactly?

James said if you say you have faith but don't, we'll know it by your lack of works.

That's not at all what James says. You have to deliberately twist what James says by "justified BY works" to get this. No one remotely honest could read "Justified BY works" as anything but "Justified BECAUSE OF works".

Yes.

We will love and obey God more, we will be like Jesus, we will love people, and do kind things for them, even our enemies, we will exhibit love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, meekness, temperance, etc. We will grow from glory to glory and one day will be transformed to be just like him, totally sinless and immortal.

And what do you think "obey" means? What do you think it means to be like Jesus? Do you think all Jesus did was love his enemies and have strong character? Totally sinless means total obedience to the commandments. Sin is Lawlessness. Thus, you are supporting my position here inadvertantly.

Christ paid the penalty for ALL our sins so I understand Hebrew in light that if we believe in Jesus we are saved, but some despised Christ and his sacrifice and went back to the Law to establish their own righteousness and were lost

Nope, that's exactly the opposite of what Hebrews is saying, as well as 1 John. Jesus said those who teach to break the least of the commandments shall be called the Least in Heaven. Hebrews 10:26 says anyone who continues to sin will lose their salvation. You are reading it the exact opposite of its face-value reading.

,

they never really believed and when persecution for trusting Christ came, they bailed.

That's not what it says.

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Peridition refers to lawlessness, which is sin. Talking about their behavior.

You should really read the whole chapter and book to understand and not take verses out of context.

That's the same advice I'd give you.

James says, he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. Not your own sins, but you will save him from death and he will turn from his sins, Only Jesus can atone for our or anyone's sins.

Care to Follow your own advice here? Read it carefully. It says that the believer was turning from the truth, and it is his change of behavior which causes him to be saved. Now look at 5:12

"Above all, my brothers, do not swearnot by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your Yes be yes, and your No, no, or you will be condemned. "

Why will they be condemned by swearing falsely or giving a false yes?

javajo · Dec 27, 2011

Shermana, it takes me an hour to answer one of your posts. I gotta go order pizza for my kids. I may try to reply, but, I don't know when. I just believe:

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (from Hebrews 10)

16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal. 2

6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal. 3

Shermana · Dec 27, 2011

Further proving my point that one must rely on the Epistles of Paul (which happen to clash with Jesus and James) to promote their worksless/saved-by-grace Theology. As for Hebrews, snipping out 25-28 definitely skews the context. "Faith" in Jesus means obedience to his teachings. If you deliberately keep on sinning, that's what is trampling underfoot. Verse 28 is necessary for the context of 29. Hebrews 10 is referring to those who deliberately keep on sinning. End of story. The "enemies of G-d" are those who don't obey the Mosaic Law and thus sin. It's hard to NOT interpret it that way if you actually read it objectively free from presumptive theologies.

Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. 26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”d and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”e 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

starlite · Dec 27, 2011

Shermana said:
Why would the name Immanuel mean the person named such IS G-d, it merely means "God is with us". Ezekiel means "God strengthens", does that mean Ezekiel was G-d too?

nice reasoning

Gmister2 · Dec 28, 2011

Muffled said:
I have been asked to produce evidence of the divinity of Jesus. This is not just good evidence, it is overwhelming evidence.

Words of Jesus

John 14:9 ... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father
John 14:10 ... the words that I say unto you , I speak not from myself but from the Father abiding in Me doeth His works
John 14:11 ... I am in the Father and the Father in Me
John 10:30 I and My Father are one
John 10:33 ... thou being a man makest Thyself God
John 8:58 Jesus said ... before Abraham was born, Jah (Jah is the short form of Jeshovah)
John 8:59 They took up stones therefore to cast at Him
Mark 2:5 and Jesus seeing their faith saith ... thy sins are forgiven
Mark 2:7 ... who can forgive sins but one, even God
Mark 10:17 ... good teacher Mark 10:18 Why callest Me good? None is good save one, even God John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
Mat. 1:21 ... call his name Jesus; for it is He that shall save his people from their sins
Prophecies of the Messiah Jesus
Isa. 45:21 ... I, Jehovah? and there is no God else besides Me a just God and savior, there is none besides Me
Isa. 7:14 ... a sign: behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel (God with us)
Isa 9:6 a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called: Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

Attributes of God
Omnipresence
John 1:46 Nathaniel saith unto Him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him Before Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
John 1:49 Nathaniel answered him, Rabbi thou art the Son of God; thou art King of Israel.
John 1:50 Jesus answered ... thou shalt see greater things than these
Omniscience
Luke 6:8 ...the Pharisees watched Him ... that they might find how to accuse him but He knew their thoughts
John 4:17 ... Thou sayest well, I have no husband
John 4:18 for thou hast had five husbands and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband
Omnipotence
Mark 4:41 ... Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?

(He turned water into wine, multiplied bread, healed the sick and the blind, raised a man who was dead for four days)
Authority
Luke 4:36 ... for with authority and power He commandeth the unclean spirits and they come out
Mat 7:29 for He taught them as one having authority
Mat 28:18 ... Jesus ...spake... saying, all authority hath been given unto Me in heaven and on earth
The "I am" statements of Jesus
John 8:12 ... I am the light of the world
John 14:6 ... I am the way, the truth and the life
John 6:35 ... I am the bread of life
John 10:9 I am the door, by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved
John 11:25 ... I am the resurrection and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine (this is a reference to Jesus being the Paraclete)

I'm afraid i will have to dismiss this as bad evidence. there is no proof that this is real, nor is there any records to back these statements up (the bible doesn't count because it is the source of these statements)

waitasec · Dec 28, 2011

Gmister2 said:
I'm afraid i will have to dismiss this as bad evidence. there is no proof that this is real, nor is there any records to back these statements up (the bible doesn't count because it is the source of these statements)

why must one mention the obvious?

Dirty Penguin · Dec 28, 2011

javajo said:
Your opinion.

No actually it's a fact that I backed up plenty of times here. You on the other hand haven't even bothered to address any of the various issues raised throughout this thread. We've dealt with verses of the 4 gospels as well as your book of Revelation even extrabiblical sources. We've dealt with translations as well. I've addressed them and refuted all the notions of Yeshua being "God". You've listed nothing that even resembles a challenge.

javajo said:
My Bible says:
21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Yes we can clearly see that the writer of that gospel is trying to tie in an OT prophecy. The prophecy had nothing to do with Yeshua. It was a prophecy that was to come to fruition in the days of King Ahaz. Even so...there is no place in the 4 gospels where Yeshua was greeted by the (Title) Emmanuel/Immanuel.

javajo said:
Ah, so you do not even believe in God, or that he died for us. You don't believe the Bible and you don't accept Christ as your Savior.

My belief or lack of has nothing to do with holding a theological discussion or debate. You made the claim that "God" came to die for the sins of that which it created.....And I'm simply stating that this means an infinite god such as yours is not as powerful or all knowing if it has to do such a thing. The presumption would be that an infinite, all powerful, all knowing deity would be able to save its creation, as it did in the Old Testament, without doing so in the flesh. Please take note that I've already proven in this and other threads that Yeshua was not all powerful nor was he all knowing

Dirty Penguin · Dec 28, 2011

Gmister2 said:
I'm afraid i will have to dismiss this as bad evidence. there is no proof that this is real, nor is there any records to back these statements up (the bible doesn't count because it is the source of these statements)

Once you delve into the context of what Muffled listed as "overwhelming evidence" you quickly realize the list of random quotes taken out of context disappears and becomes nothing more than theological speculation.

javajo · Dec 28, 2011

Shermana said:
Further proving my point that one must rely on the Epistles of Paul (which happen to clash with Jesus and James) to promote their worksless/saved-by-grace Theology

I believe the Epistles of Paul the Apostle of Jesus Christ compliment rather than clash with the other epistles.

As for Hebrews, snipping out 25-28 definitely skews the context.

I did it for brevity but it actually helps the point of the chapter. We have been sanctified by Christ's death but these people who turn back to the law have trampled underfoot the Son of God. They actually had to do a ceremony where they trampled on blood thus denying and insulting his sacrifice.I am not of those who turn back, but of those who believe in Christ who died for me.

"Faith" in Jesus means obedience to his teachings.

Obedience is part of growth and discipleship, but faith in Christ is to place our faith in his sacrifice, that it paid the penalty of our sins.

If you deliberately keep on sinning, that's what is trampling underfoot. Verse 28 is necessary for the context of 29. Hebrews 10 is referring to those who deliberately keep on sinning. End of story. The "enemies of G-d" are those who don't obey the Mosaic Law and thus sin.

It is the sin of unbelief in Christ that is being referred to.

Dirty Penguin said:
No actually it's a fact that I backed up plenty of times here. You on the other hand haven't even bothered to address any of the various issues raised throughout this thread. We've dealt with verses of the 4 gospels as well as your book of Revelation even extrabiblical sources. We've dealt with translations as well. I've addressed them and refuted all the notions of Yeshua being "God". You've listed nothing that even resembles a challenge.

A great many theologians would disagree. Fact is Christ has all the same attributes of God. He forgave sins (and still does), he could control the elements as in calming the storm, he received worship, he foretold the future, etc. I believe those who reject the only name given whereby we may be saved, the only one who loved and died for them, will not accept that Christ is divine no matter the evidence.

Yes we can clearly see that the writer of that gospel is trying to tie in an OT prophecy. The prophecy had nothing to do with Yeshua. It was a prophecy that was to come to fruition in the days of King Ahaz. Even so...there is no place in the 4 gospels where Yeshua was greeted by the (Title) Emmanuel/Immanuel.

According to Mathew, which is the inspired Word of God in the Bible, it is a prophecy of Christ as well.

My belief or lack of has nothing to do with holding a theological discussion or debate. You made the claim that "God" came to die for the sins of that which it created.....And I'm simply stating that this means an infinite god such as yours is not as powerful or all knowing if it has to do such a thing. The presumption would be that an infinite, all powerful, all knowing deity would be able to save its creation, as it did in the Old Testament, without doing so in the flesh. Please take note that I've already proven in this and other threads that Yeshua was not all powerful nor was he all knowing

You did not prove it to me. The Old Testament points to Christ and the sacrifice he would make for you and me. Because he loves us. Sorry you don't understand that.

javajo · Dec 28, 2011

Of how much worse punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done insult unto the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:29

I believe this verse is a strong warning to all who reject Christ's sacrifice as payment for our sins and consider his blood as unholy and on par with the blood of pigs or goats or humans. They insult him by denying his deity and ability to have paid for their sins by his one sacrifice and have insulted the Holy Spirit who tried to bring them grace, that is undeserved, unmerited favor so they could accept the free gift of eternal life and be saved. I believe those who reject Christ and deny who he is will be judged much more severely than one who has not heard the good news.

Shermana · Dec 28, 2011

javajo said:
Of how much worse punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done insult unto the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:29

I believe this verse is a strong warning to all who reject Christ's sacrifice as payment for our sins and consider his blood as unholy and on par with the blood of pigs or goats or humans. They insult him by denying his deity and ability to have paid for their sins by his one sacrifice and have insulted the Holy Spirit who tried to bring them grace, that is undeserved, unmerited favor so they could accept the free gift of eternal life and be saved. I believe those who reject Christ and deny who he is will be judged much more severely than one who has not heard the good news.

Like I said, if you want to change the context for what it says in 10:26 how that is for people who are "enemies of G-d" who "deliberately sin" into something else, (the context is not about the "Sin of not believing in Christ"), that's fine. You said

"It is the sin of unbelief in Christ that is being referred to.
"

. Way to completely skew what the text actually says about who the "enemies of G-d" are. The verse is in fact talking about people like you (and the billions of others) who hold on to such Lawless theology. The verse is talking about people who "deliberately sin", and in context to the rest of the Chapter (and book), it's referring to people who think the sacrifice on the cross gives them a license to break the Law. This is what 1 John says. (And as I said on another thread, it seems you constantly ignore any reference to 1 John, I can only wonder why). When you say that it applies to people who "Turn back to the Law", that's the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of what it actually says. I appreciate you proving how badly the Antinomian Trinitarians will twist the scripture from what it plainly says.

Dirty Penguin · Dec 28, 2011

javajo said:
A great many theologians would disagree.

Vice versa...so what's your point?

javajo said:
Fact is Christ has all the same attributes of God.

No he doesn't. He's not "All knowing"...nor is he all powerful. These two attributes of the god of the bible trump any characteristic you think Yeshua might have had.

javajo said:
He forgave sins (and still does), he could control the elements as in calming the storm

Not because he was "God" as you assert rather he said it was his god that gave him the ability or allowed him to do the things he was able to do. Take, for instance, Lazarus..Martha said...(I know that whatever you ask of God HE will grant it to you). Remember Yeshua was the one that said "All power is (granted) to me in heaven"....If he is "God" as you assert then who granted "God" power? How can "God" be given power?

javajo said:
he received worship, he foretold the future, etc.

So did others. This hardly makes him "God"...

javajo said:
According to Mathew, which is the inspired Word of God in the Bible, it is a prophecy of Christ as well.

The scholarly consensus is that Matthew and Luke drew heavily their material from Mark. So I doubt it's an inspired word of "God". Each gospel was written by anonymous author(s) for a specific purpose to a particular crowed. While Isaiah was a prophecy it had nothing to do with Yeshua. The prophecy was told to a a king that would see it come to fruition in his day.

javajo said:
You did not prove it to me.

But I proved it none the less.....Yeshua never said he was "God" nor was it something he taught his followers and there are no verses amongst the 4 gospels that say otherwise

starlite · Dec 29, 2011

Muffled said:
I have been asked to produce evidence of the divinity of Jesus. This is not just good evidence, it is overwhelming evidence.

Mat 28:18 ... Jesus ...spake... saying, all authority hath been given unto Me in heaven and on earth

How could Jesus be God when "all authority hath been given unto me"? Wouldn't God already have the power?

Protester · Dec 29, 2011

Gmister2 said:
I'm afraid i will have to dismiss this as bad evidence. there is no proof that this is real, nor is there any records to back these statements up (the bible doesn't count because it is the source of these statements)

You might wish to at least look at the first and last items on the list which give logical reasons why the Bible should be considered accurate. You can see the last fellow has written a book on logic.

Muffed already knows all of this, and so he can take proof for an inerrant book, which is the Word of God, now if you believe that then it will naturally follow that what Muffed pointed out guarantees what the Bible says is true and thus Christ is God.

In actuality what the forum rules says about proselytizing

Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Proselytize /Pros´e·ly·tize/ (?), v. t. [imp. & p. p. proselytized (?); p. pr. & vb. n. Proselytizing (?).] To convert to some religion, system, opinion, or the like; to bring, or cause to come, over; to proselyte.

I would and those in a conservative and Calvinistic tradition would say it is impossible to proselytize! It is really impossible to proselytize. We can go down the list of what is needed to believe to be a Christian, but as the old saying goes, and I'll expand on it, You can lead a horse to water -- but you can't make him drink. And this is true about getting people to become Christians we could argue all day about why a person should be a Christian but only God can determine if what is said to you will have any effect. You have to be thirsty and believe you are getting water -- something that only God can convince a person. This is as far as Christians of a Calvinistic turn of mind would say. There are Bible verses to support that view, which I won't quote now.

So, look over those comments from what could be considered a secular proof of the Bible is what it says it is, but do most times do I think it is actually going to have any effect --No--

Anyway, Muffed was working with a given --as far as conservative Christians are concerned--Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy -- if you don't believe, so be it.

How Accurate is the Bible?

Alleged Errors in the Bible -- Part 1

Alleged Errors in the Bible - Part II

Alleged Errors in the Bible -- Part III

Alleged Errors in the Bible -- Part IV

Alleged Errors in the Bible

Did Jesus say he was God???

Heretic

Heretic

God's Warrior

Heretic

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Heretic

Well-Known Member

Heretic

Texasgirl

Laveyen Satanist

Veteran Member

Master Of Ceremony

Master Of Ceremony

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Heretic

Master Of Ceremony

Texasgirl

Active Member