The global flood: The sorting of fossils and sediments

javajo said:

Well, what about those polystrate fossils? Those sound pretty interesting.

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javajo said:

What is the error of this statement?: (besides its from icr)

Beveled surfaces below, within, and above thick strata sequences provide evidence of rapid flood and post-flood erosion. Fossils provide universal evidence of rapid burial, and even agonizing death.
Rapid burial is necessary to entomb organisms as the first step in fossilization. The abundant marine invertebrate fossils throughout the entire fossil strata demonstrate extraordinary burial conditions.
Polystrate fossil logs (tree trunks in vertical position running through several sedimentary layers) are common in the fossil layers and are clear evidence of rapid burial.
Common vertebrate fossils show rigor mortis and postures indicative of asphyxiation—sudden smothering of the animal (e.g., Archaeopteryx and dinosaur fossils in the quarry at Dinosaur National Monument).

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RedOne77 said:

Great question

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As it turns out, the various layers don't represent millions or even thousands of years, the strata that polystrate fossils go through are all of the same basic age as determined by things like radiometric dating Not all deposits and sediments form layers gradually, sometimes it happens quickly in a few days or a few years.

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Trees are sturdy enough to remain intact for a few years, and even decades given the right conditions, after they die which is enough time for various processes to bury them relatively rapidly.

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In geology, such fossils are referred to as upright fossils, trunks, or trees. Brief periods of rapid sedimentation favor their formation.[2][4]

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In river deltas and other coastal plain settings, rapid sedimentation is often the end result of a brief period of accelerated subsidence of an area of coastal plain relative to sea level caused by salt tectonics, global sea level rise, growth faulting, continental margin collapse, or some combination of these factors.[4]

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For example, geologists such as John W. F. Waldron and Michael C. Rygel have argued that the rapid burial and preservation of polystrate fossil trees found at Joggins, Nova Scotia was the direct result of rapid subsidence, caused by salt tectonics within an already subsiding pull apart basin, and resulting rapid accumulation of sediments.[5][6]

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javajo said:

Thanks. Thanks for your time!
That's good to know, because it fits in with my beliefs. That's good, I just need a year or 2 or 3 for the year the waters covered the earth and the few years following as the waters subsided as the oceans sank and mountains were pushed up.
That works for me too.. Awesome.That fits my understanding quite well, thanks! Happy Thanksgiving!

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javajo said:

That fits my understanding quite well, thanks! Happy Thanksgiving!

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shawn001 said:

LOL

They believe kids rode dinosaurs.

They also only go back to the dinosaurs and don't realize there was another huge group of animals BEFORE the dinosaurs.

Before the Dinosaurs - Pelycosaurs, Archosaurs, and Therapsids

The Story of the Reptiles that Preceded the Dinosaurs

Like archeologists discovering the ruins of a previously unknown civilization buried deep beneath an ancient city, dinosaur enthusiasts are sometimes astonished to learn that entirely different kinds of reptiles once ruled the earth, tens of millions of years before famous dinosaurs like Tyrannosaurus Rex, Velociraptor and Stegosaurus. For approximately 120 million years--from the Carboniferous to the middle Triassic periods--terrestrial life was dominated by the pelycosaurs, archosaurs, and therapsids (the so-called "mammal-like reptiles") that preceded the dinosaurs. (See a complete, A to Z list of non-dinosaur reptiles, a gallery of therapsid pictures, a gallery of archosaur pictures, and a gallery of pelycosaur pictures.)
Of course, before there could be archosaurs (much less full-blown dinosaurs), nature had to evolve the first genuine reptile.

Pelycosaurs, Archosaurs and Therapsids - All About the Pelycosaurs, Archosaurs and Therapsids that Preceded the Dinosaurs

DIMETRODON grandis​

"Dimetrodon - ancestor of the mammals belonged to the family called Pelycosaurs, which had both mammal and reptile characteristics. Dimetrodon preceded the earliest dinosaurs by more than 40 million years but physically it looked a lot like one. "​

Was NOT a dinosaur and was the top predator during the Early Permian period. If it wasn't for the way he evolved you quite likely wouldn't have a brain. He was the first to evolve jaw muscles that allowed brain size to increase. Before him, the jaw muscles of animals didn't let the brain evolve bigger. So they leave out the whole permian period and the whole permian period extintion of 95% of all life on earth and IT EVOLVED BACK TO THE DINOSAURS>

Lets start with their first lie.

" All the different, basic kinds of animals appear abruptly and fully functional in the strata - with no proof of ancestors. "Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does not provide them."


'Missing Links' Reveal Truth About Evolution

With the 200th anniversary of the birth of Charles Darwin this week, people around the world are celebrating his role as the father of evolutionary theory.​

Events and press releases are geared, in part, to combat false claims made by some who would discredit the theory.​

One frequently cited "hole" in the theory: Creationists claim there are no transitional fossils, aka "missing links."​

Biologists and paleontologists, among others, know this claim is false.​

'Missing Links' Reveal Truth About Evolution | Fox News​

PHOTOS: 7 Major "Missing Links" Since Darwin


Tiktaalik: The "Fishapod"

Illustration by Zina Deretsky, National Science Foundation
For the 200th anniversary of Charles Darwin's birth (February 12, 2009), National Geographic News asked leading scientists for their picks of the most important fossils that show evolution in action—seven of which are presented here, starting with this "fishapod."

Discovered in Arctic Canada in 2004, 375 million-year-old Tiktaalik had not only gills and scales but traits of a tetrapod (four-legged land animal), including limblike fins, ribs, a flexible neck, and a croc-shaped head.

Why it matters: Tiktaalik is seen as evidence of the period when our aquatic ancestors began moving ashore—along with other fins-to-limbs fossils, such as Acanthostega (Acanthostega picture), the most primitive known tetrapod.

The discoveries of these and other "missing link" species have helped dispel what Darwin called perhaps "the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory" of evolution--the former lack of transitional fossil species.
February 11, 2009


PHOTOS: 7 Major "Missing Links" Since Darwin


So their first statements are lies.

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1. The first great mass extinction event took place at the end of the Ordovician, when according to the fossil record, 60% of all genera of both terrestrial and marine life worldwide were exterminated.
2. 360 million years ago in the Late Devonian period, the environment that had clearly nurtured reefs for at least 13 million years turned hostile and the world plunged into the second mass extinction event.
3. The fossil record of the end Permian mass extinction reveals a staggering loss of life: perhaps 80–95% of all marine species went extinct. Reefs didn't reappear for about 10 million years, the greatest hiatus in reef building in all of Earth history.
4. The end Triassic mass extinction is estimated to have claimed about half of all marine invertebrates. Around 80% of all land quadrupeds also went extinct.
5. The end Cretaceous mass extinction 65 million years ago is famously associated with the demise of the dinosaurs. Virtually no large land animals survived. Plants were also greatly affected while tropical marine life was decimated. Global temperature was 6 to 14°C warmer than present with sea levels over 300 metres higher than current levels. At this time, the oceans flooded up to 40% of the continents.

RedOne77 said:

Don't get too ahead of yourself. Yes, upright fossils are buried fast, geologically speaking, but they don't support a global flood. We know they are the result of local geological activity. For example, why do we only observe these in limited areas where the local geological activities would favor their formation?

But this is all really a minor point when considering the overall idea of a global deluge as described in the Bible. Another thing to consider is the fact that when a flood happens it leaves a sediment layer, yet there is no global sediment layer, let alone one that dates back to 4-5 thousand years ago. It's true you might be able to find some stuff that co-insides with your belief of a young earth and global flood, but don't be fooled, the physical evidence doesn't support it. You need to look at all the evidence, not just bits and pieces of it.

A good series that you might find intriguing is "Science and Christian Education" by glovergj. He is a Christian and he talks about the relation between science and Christianity, and goes over some pseudoscience the church has spread over the years starting with non-controversial topics like flat-earth and slowly getting into modern Christian pseudoscience like flood geology. I really enjoyed the series myself, so I hope you'll give it a chance. Happy Thanksgiving as well!

[youtube]Fperp1Mezt0[/youtube]Hi. I think there is a little more to polystrate fossils than what you said, but science aside, there is something about me that I've been trying to get across. I believe absolutely that the Bible is God's Word and the Flood of Noah is fact. People can throw up all the origins science arguments and 'evidence' they like, but I see it a whole different way. Right now mos,t but not all the historical scienctists deny the Deluge, so I'll just have to wait for the science to catch up to the Bible. This is why debating is so futile. Depending on one's worldview, they will look at the world and try to figure out what happened in the past and will come to different conclusions.
Lesson 1/16: Seeing Through a Glass Darkly - YouTube

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camanintx said:

So where does the evidence of fires within these strata fit in your understanding?

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shawn001 said:

Javajo, you didn't address the above that we do have transitional fossils.

Amber also wasn't formed by a flood.

Funny also if the global flood was around 4,200 years ago, which we know it wasn't.


Archeologists discover 8,000-year-old building in Tel Aviv

Hippopotamus bones and teeth that probably belonged to sheep or goat also discovered at site.


Remains of a prehistoric building, the earliest ever discovered in the Tel Aviv region and estimated to be between 7,800 and 8,400 years old, were recently discovered in an archaeological excavation in Ramat Aviv.
Ancient artifacts thought to be 13,000 and 100,000 years old were also discovered there.

Archeologists discover 8,000-year-old building in Tel Aviv - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

Wasn't washed away and no evidence it was flooded.

But millions of facts if not billions, including the fossil record show there was no global flood.

There was a massive flood in the Pacific NW 13,000 years ago and there is evidence for it everywhere and no global flood erased the evidence of that flood either.

Again, there are different animals that have been fossilized at different time periods throughtout the history of the earth. Cynobacteria at some 3.8 billions years ago and dinosaurs before 65 million years ago and lots of others in between.

Once again there have been five mass extintion events on earth we know about and life evolved back from them.



There have been five mass extinction events throughout Earth's history:

1. The first great mass extinction event took place at the end of the Ordovician, when according to the fossil record, 60% of all genera of both terrestrial and marine life worldwide were exterminated.
2. 360 million years ago in the Late Devonian period, the environment that had clearly nurtured reefs for at least 13 million years turned hostile and the world plunged into the second mass extinction event.
3. The fossil record of the end Permian mass extinction reveals a staggering loss of life: perhaps 80–95% of all marine species went extinct. Reefs didn't reappear for about 10 million years, the greatest hiatus in reef building in all of Earth history.
4. The end Triassic mass extinction is estimated to have claimed about half of all marine invertebrates. Around 80% of all land quadrupeds also went extinct.
5. The end Cretaceous mass extinction 65 million years ago is famously associated with the demise of the dinosaurs. Virtually no large land animals survived. Plants were also greatly affected while tropical marine life was decimated. Global temperature was 6 to 14°C warmer than present with sea levels over 300 metres higher than current levels. At this time, the oceans flooded up to 40% of the continents.

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javajo said:

Cut and paste much?

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shawn001 said:

Since this was a responce to the lies from the creation site and your cut and paste I am surprized you said that?

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Ken Harding said:

[If a global flood occurred], we would expect to see no sorting in regard to sediment type and size. The maelstrom of a flood would only permit "dumping" of transported sediment in accord with Stokes Law. Furthermore, HOW could floodwaters have deposited layers of HEAVIER sediments on top of layers of LIGHTER sediments? In other words, if there had been an ultramassive Flood, we would not expect to see limestone strata overlaid by granite. No creationist has ever explained how the Flood could have deposited layers of heavy sediment on top of layers of lighter sediment.

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Wikipedia said:

In 1851, George Gabriel Stokes derived an expression, now known as Stokes' law, for the frictional force – also called drag force – exerted on spherical objects with very small Reynolds numbers (e.g., very small particles) in a continuous viscous fluid. Stokes' law is derived by solving the Stokes flow limit for small Reynolds numbers of the generally unsolvable Navier–Stokes equations:[1]

where:

• Fd is the frictional force acting on the interface between the fluid and the particle (in N),
• μ is the dynamic viscosity (N s/m2),
• R is the radius of the spherical object (in m), and
• vs is the particle's settling velocity (in m/s).

If the particles are falling in the viscous fluid by their own weight due to gravity, then a terminal velocity, also known as the settling velocity, is reached when this frictional force combined with the buoyant force exactly balance the gravitational force. The resulting settling velocity (or terminal velocity) is given by:

where:

• vs is the particles' settling velocity (m/s) (vertically downwards if &#961;p > &#961;f, upwards if &#961;p < &#961;f ),
• g is the gravitational acceleration (m/s2),
• &#961;p is the mass density of the particles (kg/m3), and
• &#961;f is the mass density of the fluid (kg/m3).

Note that for molecules Stokes' law is used to define their Stokes radius.
The CGS unit of kinematic viscosity was named "stokes" after his work.

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Mark Isaak said:

Why did the Flood not leave traces on the sea floors?

A year long flood should be recognizable in sea bottom cores by (1) an uncharacteristic amount of terrestrial detritus, (2) different grain size distributions in the sediment, (3) a shift in oxygen isotope ratios (rain has a different isotopic composition from seawater), (4) a massive extinction, and (n) other characters. Why do none of these show up?

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Anyone who has dealt with creationists can tell you about the game of creationist whack-a-mole. Whack-a-mole is that game where you have a mallet and these moles pop out of various holes and you have to whack them with the mallet, but as soon as you whack one of them, another one comes up in another hole. It never seems to end. That is exactly what it's like dealing with creationists. No matter how many times you disprove a creationist claim, it simply pops up in another hole and you have to whack it all over again. I was reminded of this yet again when I came across this essay on a creationist webpage that rehashes the long-discredited "moon dust" argument.

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Jajevo said:

How could a mudslide produce a polystrate fossil that goes through several layers of rock with each layer representing millions of years?

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Krok said:

Javajo, why did you not tell the truth post 89, http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2696404-post89.html, where you wrote:

Could you refer to any geologist, ever, who's indicated that those polystrate fossils go through rocks with "each layer representing millions of years"? A reference to a geologist who's made that claim would suffice. I think you are not telling the truth here.

And, creationists claiming that geologists say this, don't count. We need a reference where an actual geologist has ever claimed this. Without such a reference we would know that you prefer not to tell the truth.

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Krok said:

Javajo, why did you not tell the truth post 89, http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2696404-post89.html ,where you wrote:

"How could a mudslide produce a polystrate fossil that goes through several layers of rock with each layer representing millions of years?"

Could you refer to any geologist, ever, who's indicated that those polystrate fossils go through rocks with "each layer representing millions of years"? A reference to a geologist who's made that claim would suffice. I think you are not telling the truth here.

And, creationists claiming that geologists say this, don't count. We need a reference where an actual geologist has ever claimed this. Without such a reference we would know that you prefer not to tell the truth.

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Bob Dutko said:

Simply put, the Creation Scientist says the Geological strata we see in the ground was all laid down at about the same time as part of the natural layering that takes place after massive flooding and mudslides, or in other words, after Noah's flood about 4500 years ago. Evolutionary scientists say the layers in the ground were the various surfaces of the Earth over the last 500 million years. Remember, they need that to be true because they need 100's of millions of years for Darwin's Theory of Evolution. So let's examine the evidence to see which theory makes sense.

In the ground, right now are literally thousands of “polystrate” fossils. These are fossils that are standing upright, vertically punching through many (poly) of the layers (strate or strata) in the ground. In other words, picture a fossilized tree standing upright, right in the middle of the Geologic Column going up through “millions of years” of several layers. If the evolutionists are right, that would mean the bottom of that tree would be in layers of the ground millions of years older that the top of the tree. How logical is that? There are literally thousands of these polystrate trees, right now, in the ground all over the Earth. I can assure you, you'll never see their photos in your school Geology books because evolutionists don't want you to know about them. What's also interesting is that the majority of these fossilized trees do not have branches or roots. They literally look like telephone poles. So how did they get there?

In 1980 when Mt. St. Helens erupted, we noticed a fascinating phenomenon. The force of the eruption blasted the forests in the area with such power that it broke the trees off at the base of the ground, leaving the roots underground and stripped the branches from the trunks leaving the hillsides littered with thousands of, what appeared to be “telephone poles”. No branches, no roots. We see that this is common when when volcanoes erupt near forests and leave thousands of branchless, rootless trees littering the hillsides. Near Mt. St. Helens, thousands of these “telephone pole” trees rolled into nearby Spirit Lake creating massive log mats. To see the photos, it just looks like thousands of telephone poles floating in the water. As the trees became waterlogged, they sank, but they didn't sink horizontally. It was observed that as they got more waterlogged, they eventually turned upright, floating vertically until finally they sank to the bottom, punching their way down into the muddy bottom. Additional mudslides into the lake covered them up even more. This is not theory, this is what was actually observed.

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Agnostic75 said:

Since flood geology is such a broad topic, for purposes of this thread, I wish to limit discussions to the sorting of fossils and sediments.

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cablescavenger said:

Hi Agnostic

Nice post, I enjoyed reading it.

I have a question for you.

I am writing, perhaps as a bit of a devil's advcate, because the world we are looking at is much larger than it was when the story was written, so we would look at the bigger picture, but if you are on foot, the bigger picture may be within 10 miles of your home.

I have witnessed floods here in the UK, where extra rainfall has caused rivers to flow over and burst their banks, and given the flat surrounding area, the bursting banks have spread for a few miles, giving the impression of a rather large flood.

Apparently the Moses story originates from Iraq (formerly Mesopotamia and Babylon). I have had a little look at Iraq and you have the Euphrates and Tigris which both flow South into the gulf.

Do you think it is possible that the banks of these rivers could have burst and be seen as a world flood?

I am thinking perhaps at the region where they approach either other around Baghdad, but more likely further south where they join just before Basrah, because two swollen rivers, with a backflow of swollen river near the length of the country, can cause phenomenal flooding pretty quickly. Given that a couple of miles, might be as far as the eye can see, do you think it is plausible that it is a world flood, when it may only several miles?

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Agnostic75 said:

I don't know, but if so, it would not have been a supernatural event, and would not have agreed with the Bible story of Noah.

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