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Paul ... Paul ... Paul !!!

Scott1

Well-Known Member
The Truth said:
I'm sorry this is too difficult for you.

One of the keys to understanding the Bible is to make sure that you, the reader "whilst carefully observing the rules of rational ... hermeneutics, make skilful use of the new aids to exegesis, especially those which the historical method, taken in its widest sense, has provided; that method, namely, which minutely investigates sources, determining their nature and bearing, and availing itself of the findings of textual criticism, literary criticism, and linguistic studies."
Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels

You have already made it quite clear that the Bible is "FULL of mysteries, doubts,errors and contradictions but Quran is perfect." .... and while I respect your opinion, your attempts to "understand" the Bible are a little less than believable... but I'd be happy to continue to help you if you truly are looking to learn.

All with Peter, to Jesus, through Mary,
Scott



http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1352
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Scott1 said:
I'm sorry this is too difficult for you.

One of the keys to understanding the Bible is to make sure that you, the reader "whilst carefully observing the rules of rational ... hermeneutics, make skilful use of the new aids to exegesis, especially those which the historical method, taken in its widest sense, has provided; that method, namely, which minutely investigates sources, determining their nature and bearing, and availing itself of the findings of textual criticism, literary criticism, and linguistic studies."
Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels

You have already made it quite clear that the Bible is "FULL of mysteries, doubts,errors and contradictions but Quran is perfect." .... and while I respect your opinion, your attempts to "understand" the Bible are a little less than believable... but I'd be happy to continue to help you if you truly are looking to learn.

All with Peter, to Jesus, through Mary,
Scott
i'm not seeing you answering my original question about Paul anywhere or you still searching like me for the answer too?


Peace ... :)
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
The Truth said:
i'm not seeing you answering my original question about Paul anywhere or you still searching like me for the answer too?
I was afraid you wouldn't understand... sorry I couldn't help.

Omnes cum Petro,
Scott
 

Bennettresearch

Politically Incorrect
Dear Truth.

Apologetics is defined here as a defense for a doctrine of faith. Not as an apology. Hermaneutics is the study of culture, history, and tradition to understand scripture.

I want to get back to AV. Do you think that the Antichrist has not come yet? It sounds like it to me. Most of your arguments are not going anywhere. The whole myth of the COMING Antichrist has thoroughly dismissed any events of the past 1900 years!!! Yes John was stating what he was seeing in the Chrisitian Church of HIS time, not ours. There is a therefore, to understand Revelation one cannot be in denial over the events of the first century onwards and cite a mythological representation of what the prophecy is saying.

In presenting my own interpetation of Revelation, which is based upon years of study and is still in progress, I am presenting it for scrutiny. All I seem to get from you AV is your dogma. No offense meant, but you have been challenging me and have not presented any case as to why you think that I am mistaken. Only denial.

I think the best example of this is to say that using the word beast to refer to Jesus is blasphemy. You misunderstand the use of the term. People are so caught up in one beast that they do not understand that it is only a sustitute so one does'nt have to specifically name names. The Image of the Beast is surely Jesus, and this would be the crucifix. Maybe you don't like what it says but that is what it is saying.

I will continue to listen and read posts and replies from anyone who cares to debate the subject. I am of the school of thought that leaves everything open to challenge and ammendment. Therefore (that word again) I have not closed my mind to learning.
 

Merlin

Active Member
The Truth said:
maybe it's because english is not my mother tongue language so my posts may looks rough and i apologize for that.

I'll tell you why bother ....

I just love to read about several religions and i have materials about many religions but christians are more close to me i guess more than others maybe because i have many christian friends and also i used to talk about it with my finace (she is a christian) and she taught me alot that's why i'm familiar with it and she was asking me to convert to christianity to be like her but i believe in my religion and at the same time i want to be sure that there are still things in christianity no body can explain it and i'm just looking for answers not to accept as it's as many do so or to learn what christians believe in because i know most of it but just to see why i should believe in it not how i will believe in it and to prove it for me (( EXPLAINATIONS ))... why i should believe in this one or that one while i find things contradict with it in another place in the bible ??? you can say it's somthing push me away from christianity which is ( Questions without Answers ) or you can say with weak or non sense answers sometimes that based in emotions only but not in a proper and professional way.

i really feel frustrated that Christians see my posts as attacking not as sharing information and discussing about it because we are not in a church for God's sake. Here we supposed to think why is that or that but in the church you have to believe anything there blindly as i discovered by myself and when i was going there sometimes with my finace and asking questions and thier answers was convert then you will understand so i said WHAT THE ??????? :eek:

It's totally silly because once you ask them they will say God will guide you or go and read and you will understand So i just came in here to find answers for my questions.

On the other hand, when Christians ask about Islam you will never find any muslim will tell you please why you are attacking us :tsk: but he will be happy to hear from you even though you are just fooling around trying to attack but why does it supposed to bother any muslim if he/she really believe in Islam.

Nevertheless, I found out most of Christians depends in love and emotion which the church put in thier mind as they were trying with me but actually i couldn't accept it because thier explainations were non sense to me and when i came to find answers here everybody thought i'm attacking and they remain just quite hopless without answers for things they supposed to know more than me as christians but they choosed to believe in it blindly and it's thier own business because i know It's just the psychology thing go along with media which makes anyone think that a muslim must attack and the christian must defend.

When you build this Forum you have should put on the top of it ...

FOR CHRISTIANS ONLY AND MAYBE FOR OTHER GROUPS BUT NO MUSLIMS ARE ALLOWED TO ENTER :jam: EXCEPT IF THEY TALKED ABOUT THIER OWN FAITH ONLY !!!


Peace ... :)
There is little difference between all religious 'bibles', including the Qua'ran. They all contain conflicting duplications. But they were written when stories were handed down by word of mouth as nobody could read or write. In any case, Bibles are not 'product manuals'. They are not absolute guides, but just 'clues' along the long road to finding communion with God.

Equally with people today, some Christians are intolerant, as are some Moslems (think of Salman Rushdie). That is a problem for them.

For you, there is no point searching any scripture looking for flaws, they are everywhere. Just read for clues and learn from them.

By the way, Paul was the first person to write anything down of what we now call the New Testament. It was about 40 years after the crucifixion. He was quite influencial.

Merlin
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Merlin said:
There is little difference between all religious 'bibles', including the Qua'ran. They all contain conflicting duplications. But they were written when stories were handed down by word of mouth as nobody could read or write. In any case, Bibles are not 'product manuals'. They are not absolute guides, but just 'clues' along the long road to finding communion with God.

Equally with people today, some Christians are intolerant, as are some Moslems (think of Salman Rushdie). That is a problem for them.

For you, there is no point searching any scripture looking for flaws, they are everywhere. Just read for clues and learn from them.

By the way, Paul was the first person to write anything down of what we now call the New Testament. It was about 40 years after the crucifixion. He was quite influencial.

Merlin
Thanks Merlin for the post and for the information. :)
 

HOGCALLER

Active Member
The Truth,

Jesus is recorded as saying this to his religious opposers, “Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!” (Matthew 23:24) In this instance you too have strained the gnat and gulped down the camel and failed to see the more important lesson taught here.

I will not go back and re-explain how all of those slightly different accounts are all saying the same thing but in slightly different ways. I will not bring up the examples of the same thing happening in the Quran. Just as it has been explained to you about what Paul said, you too will have you explanations that explain the seeming mistakes and contradictions found in the Quran. That type of thing is child’s play. Quit restricting yourself to child’s play, your small and petty and feeble attacks on the Bible, and instead grow up spiritually and learn that the Bible really is God’s Word just as the Quran tells you it is. Because of your spiritual immaturity you have missed something much more important than slight variations in wording being taught in those verses.

Let me lay it out for you:

Revelation 1:7, KJV+, says: Behold,2400 he cometh2064 with3326 clouds;3507 and2532 every3956 eye3788 shall see3700 him,846 and2532 they also which3748 pierced1574 him:846 and2532 all3956 kindreds5443 of the3588 earth1093 shall wail2875 because of1909 him.846 Even so,3483 Amen.281

Almost every “Christian” that believes in the Trinity also believes that this verse says and means that “every eye” will literally see and behold Jesus when he returns. Please note that the Greek word translated “shall see” is Strong’s #3700.

Lets backup in the Bible a little to 1 John 3:2, KJV+, which says: Beloved,27 now3568 are2070 we the sons5043 of God,2316 and2532 it doth not yet3768 appear5319 what5101 we shall be:2071 but1161 we know1492 that,3754 when1437 he shall appear,5319 we shall be2071 like3664 him;846 for3754 we shall see3700 him846 as2531 he is.2076

Again, we find the same word, Strong’s #3700, the Greek word optanomai/optomai, translated “we shall see” and every Christian I know believes that they will literally see God when they get into heaven.

Now, at Act 26:16, KJV+, Jesus says to Paul: But235 rise,450 and2532 stand2476 upon1909 thy4675 feet:4228 for1063 I have appeared3700 unto thee4671 for1519 this5124 purpose, to make4400 thee4571 a minister5257 and2532 a witness3144 both5037 of these things which3739 thou hast seen,1492 and5037 of those things in the which3739 I will appear3700 unto thee;4671

Though translated by the KJV as, “I have appeared” it literally says, “I became seen to you.” Jesus literally showed himself to Paul! It was the light from Jesus’ glorified heavenly body that damaged and temporarily blinded Paul’s literal eyes—it was not just a vision! “So what’s the big deal,” you say. Trinitarians believe that Jesus is God Almighty himself but the Bible clearly tells us at Exodus 33:20, “no man may see me and yet live.” If Jesus is God how did that happen? If Jesus is God how can Revelation 1:7 be true?

Not only do Jesus and Paul testify to the fact that Paul saw Jesus but also “Bar´na·bas came to his aid and led him to the apostles, and he told them in detail how on the road he had seen the Lord and that he had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had spoken boldly in the name of Jesus.” (Acts 9:27) If Barnabas believed Jesus was God and knowing what Exodus 33:20 says, why would he claim that Paul had “seen” God? No, the situation is that Barnabas did not believe that Jesus was God and therefore had no problem stating that Paul had seen “the Lord.”

The Truth, give up your spiritually childish ways and learn to fight like a spiritual man, yes, stop straining the gnat and gulping down the camel and you will be flabbergasted by what God will teach you from the Bible.

.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
HOGCALLER said:
I will not go back and re-explain how all of those slightly different accounts are all saying the same thing but in slightly different ways.


Please do it and explain because no body could and i'm totally lost in this issue. :(

HOGCALLER said:
The Truth, give up your spiritually childish ways and learn to fight like a spiritual man, yes, stop straining the gnat and gulping down the camel and you will be flabbergasted by what God will teach you from the Bible.

.

I am shocked in how you could think of me this way saying about me that i'm playing ... and my childish way?

For the sake of God when someone discuss about a topic please DON'T ever try to GUESS what his intention is because this is unfair and you should just discuss the topic professionally instead of going around talking nonsense about somthing that ONLY exist in your mind.
 

Dentonz

Member
The Truth said:
Please do it and explain because no body could and i'm totally lost in this issue. :(
The first account the bible doesn't say whether the men around Paul fell or not, but it does say they heard a voice but saw no man. The second account, again it doesn't say whether his men fell or not but it says they saw indeed the light and they heard not the voice of him who spoke to them. And the third account it happens to say the men around him fell. So they all fell to the ground, they heard a voice but they heard not the voice of who spoke(they didn't understand) The word for heard in the greek also means to understand which is why it continues to say the voice of him who spoke to them. And they all saw a light but did not see a man. It all tells different parts of the same account, neither one contradicts the other. They fell down, they heard a voice but didn't understand who it was, they saw the light but didn't see a man.

Peace
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Dentonz said:
The first account the bible doesn't say whether the men around Paul fell or not, but it does say they heard a voice but saw no man. The second account, again it doesn't say whether his men fell or not but it says they saw indeed the light and they heard not the voice of him who spoke to them. And the third account it happens to say the men around him fell. So they all fell to the ground, they heard a voice but they heard not the voice of who spoke(they didn't understand) The word for heard in the greek also means to understand which is why it continues to say the voice of him who spoke to them. And they all saw a light but did not see a man. It all tells different parts of the same account, neither one contradicts the other. They fell down, they heard a voice but didn't understand who it was, they saw the light but didn't see a man.

Peace
So, both (heard & not heard) means (understanding and not understanding) instead of hearing or only the second one means that but not the first one?

The second thing, why in the first time he was refering to himself by saying ( he fell ) but the second time ( I fell ) ?
 

Dentonz

Member
The Truth said:
So, both (heard & not heard) means (understanding and not understanding) instead of hearing or only the second one means that but not the first one?

The second thing, why in the first time he was refering to himself by saying ( he fell ) but the second time ( I fell ) ?
If I say to you I heard a voice but I heard not who was speaking to me, doesn't that make sense?
And The first account was written about Paul. The second and third were recounting what Paul said about it. I don't know if any of it was written by Paul it was just recounting what he said. In each case he was telling a different group of people. Like say a bunch of my friends and I go to the store. If i'm talking to my wife I might just say I went to the store. And if I'm talking to some of my other friends I might say that me and John and George went to the store. I didn't tell a different account I just gave different information.

Peace
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Dentonz said:
If I say to you I heard a voice but I heard not who was speaking to me, doesn't that make sense?
And The first account was written about Paul. The second and third were recounting what Paul said about it. I don't know if any of it was written by Paul it was just recounting what he said. In each case he was telling a different group of people. Like say a bunch of my friends and I go to the store. If i'm talking to my wife I might just say I went to the store. And if I'm talking to some of my other friends I might say that me and John and George went to the store. I didn't tell a different account I just gave different information.

Peace
Are you assuming and guessing or you got this from a valid source for it? because the verse was so straight.
 

BM5

Member
brahmamurti said:
Paul was a false prophet as he didn't teach what Christ taught. Follow Christ's teachings.

btw Christ has returned. See for yourself: www.maitreya.org

You are actually right on the money there Brahm. An agent from the Sanhedrin if ever there was one.

The three stories mentioned in the thread are just that - stories ! Saul of Tarsus has done more damage to Christianiy than any other human being.
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
HOGCALLER said:
The Truth,

Jesus is recorded as saying this to his religious opposers, “Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!” (Matthew 23:24) In this instance you too have strained the gnat and gulped down the camel and failed to see the more important lesson taught here.
Is this from your version of the bible or another. For I have a friend who is JW and he says they are not the same. so if you are getting from a different source you may have a different interpretation or account which may be relevant if we are studying your variant of the text.

I will not go back and re-explain how all of those slightly different accounts are all saying the same thing but in slightly different ways.
what are the Christian scholars explanations for this "difference" in accounts. Since they are the most knowledgeable I think their testimony is more valid then mine or yours.

I will not bring up the examples of the same thing happening in the Quran.
No please list them all I would love for you to

Just as it has been explained to you about what Paul said, you too will have you explanations that explain the seeming mistakes and contradictions found in the Quran.
What is your evidence. List specifics not a website

That type of thing is child’s play. Quit restricting yourself to child’s play, your small and petty and feeble attacks on the Bible, and instead grow up spiritually and learn that the Bible really is God’s Word just as the Quran tells you it is
Where does the Quran mention this exactly and which bible are you talking about your version.

Because of your spiritual immaturity you have missed something much more important than slight variations in wording being taught in those verses.
Let me lay it out for you:

Revelation 1:7, KJV+, says: Behold,2400 he cometh2064 with3326 clouds;3507 and2532 every3956 eye3788 shall see3700 him,846 and2532 they also which3748 pierced1574 him:846 and2532 all3956 kindreds5443 of the3588 earth1093 shall wail2875 because of1909 him.846 Even so,3483 Amen.281
And this is supposed to help how exactly this is one verse which scholars cannot even confirm who authored it. so how is that going to be sufficient to fill this spiritual immaturity you speak of.

Almost every “Christian” that believes in the Trinity also believes that this verse says and means that “every eye” will literally see and behold Jesus when he returns.
Many Christian do not believe in the trinity so whose interpretation should we accept. Besides you are JW since when you you guys believe in trinity. And as a JW why are you using KJV as a source when this is not your reference.

Please note that the Greek word translated “shall see” is Strong’s #3700.
Lets backup in the Bible a little to 1 John 3:2, KJV+, which says: Beloved,27 now3568 are2070 we the sons5043 of God,2316 and2532 it doth not yet3768 appear5319 what5101 we shall be:2071 but1161 we know1492 that,3754 when1437 he shall appear,5319 we shall be2071 like3664 him;846 for3754 we shall see3700 him846 as2531 he is.2076

Again, we find the same word, Strong’s #3700, the Greek word optanomai/optomai, translated “we shall see” and every Christian I know believes that they will literally see God when they get into heaven.

Now, at Act 26:16, KJV+, Jesus says to Paul: But235 rise,450 and2532 stand2476 upon1909 thy4675 feet:4228 for1063 I have appeared3700 unto thee4671 for1519 this5124 purpose, to make4400 thee4571 a minister5257 and2532 a witness3144 both5037 of these things which3739 thou hast seen,1492 and5037 of those things in the which3739 I will appear3700 unto thee;4671

Though translated by the KJV as, “I have appeared” it literally says, “I became seen to you.” Jesus literally showed himself to Paul! It was the light from Jesus’ glorified heavenly body that damaged and temporarily blinded Paul’s literal eyes—it was not just a vision! “So what’s the big deal,” you say. Trinitarians believe that Jesus is God Almighty himself but the Bible clearly tells us at Exodus 33:20, “no man may see me and yet live.” If Jesus is God how did that happen? If Jesus is God how can Revelation 1:7 be true?
Which KJV the one King James authorised in 1611 with 80 books or the one some guy changed without King James authorization

Not only do Jesus and Paul testify to the fact that Paul saw Jesus but also “Bar´na·bas came to his aid and led him to the apostles, and he told them in detail how on the road he had seen the Lord and that he had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had spoken boldly in the name of Jesus.” (Acts 9:27) If Barnabas believed Jesus was God and knowing what Exodus 33:20 says, why would he claim that Paul had “seen” God? No, the situation is that Barnabas did not believe that Jesus was God and therefore had no problem stating that Paul had seen “the Lord.”
The Truth, give up your spiritually childish ways and learn to fight like a spiritual man, yes, stop straining the gnat and gulping down the camel and you will be flabbergasted by what God will teach you from the Bible.
So you the scripture you gives testifies for Baranbus as to believing Jesus is God yet the church classifies his testimony as "Apocrypha" i.e. the Gospel of Barnabus. That is funny you say this guy says this and that but when he gives his testimony you reject. so explain to me how this is. Barnabus wrote a gospel and it was found on his body in his tomb. Now his testimony is quite different then what this scripture tells us. So who am to listen to in terms of the testimony the bible idea of what he believes or his own testimony
 

Bick

Member
The first account in Acts 9 is Paul's first encounter with the light from heaven and the voice of the risen Christ; the other accounts, to me, are added info or details. Just as we might tell of an event in our own lives and add more details later, so I understand this.

In a number of accounts in the Gospels concerning Jesus ministry, in Matthew we are given certain details; then in Mark or Luke, we are given a few more.

The contradictory part to you seems to, be where those with Paul heard a sound but didn't hear a "voice": that is, intelligible words from a person. And in the last account it is rendered they didn't hear a "voice". That is because it was only a sound.
Bick
 

sparkyluv

Member
The Truth said:
- why in the first passage it appaers that third person is talking : he fell ? is it that someone is telling the story rather than Paul himself.

- in the second passage it appaers that Paul himself is talking saying And I fell unto the ground.

and please help me out to understand my main confusion which is:

In the first the story is being told about him. In the third, he's giving his testimony.
 

PHOTOTAKER

Well-Known Member
all i have to say is this:
1 cor 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
 

adilrockstar

Active Member
Feathers in Hair said:
If I may step in, as an outsider, I think what people seem to be trying to say is that many people don't think that the Bible is not intended to be read as a historical linear explanation of events. There are some Christians that read it that way, but it seems like a great number don't. So even within Christianity, there are different ways of approaching things. What you might want to try is the method of not reading it as explanation, rather as a 'story'. Simply because the Bible is considered a holy book does not mean that all Christians have to believe all of it. In Christianity, you are allowed to interpret and believe those events that you wish to. You do not have to believe anything and there is no such thing as a 'real Christian', there are only Christians.

Hopefully, I haven't unknowingly misrepresented anything that anyone was trying to say, and if I said something wrong about Christianity, please feel free to correct me.


Their is only ONE TRUTH. Anything other that that TRUTH is FALSE. Whatever that TRUTH may be. For me that TRUTH is CHRIST. And that means that the WORD is the complete TRUTH. Not to be changed.

God Bless

Adil
 
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