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Paul ... Paul ... Paul !!!

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by TashaN, Sep 11, 2005.

  1. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    While i was reading my own copy of the bible i found out 3 different interesting stories i wanted to share it with you if you don't mind.





    3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

    4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

    5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

    6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

    7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

    Acts 9:3-7


    -------------------------------------------------


    6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.

    7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

    8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

    9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. <A name=10>10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

    Acts 22:6-10



    -------------------------------------------------



    12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,

    13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.

    14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

    15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

    16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

    17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

    18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

    Acts 26:12-18

    -------------------------------------------------​

    NOW ... WHICH STORY DO WE SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE FROM THE SAME PERSON !!!

    there are many different acts and things in these 3 stories which we contradict each other but i'll pick one contradiction only which is ...

    How do you read and understand the story?

    1- hear the voice but see no man ( fell unto the ground alone ).
    2- see indeed !!! the light but they heard not the voice ( fell unto the ground alone ).
    3- all fallen to the earth( all of them).


    Peace ... :)
     
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  2. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Just wanted to "share", eh? How sweet.:rolleyes:
    All of them, of course.

    Peace be with you,
    Scott
     
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  3. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    I don't know what did you mean when you said: Just wanted to "share", eh? How sweet
    and i don't know i feel like you have somthing against me or maybe you have a super power to know what is in my heart.

    anyway, thanks for the post and for you great answer.

    Peace be upon you. :)
     
  4. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    Truth, it may be a misunderstanding, and I certainly hope that this is the case, but one gets a feeling from your posts that you aren't trying to understand the Bible so much as attack it. If it's not your holy book, why bother?
     
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  5. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Well, there are many errors crept into the scriptures. Doesn't bother me.
     
  6. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    maybe it's because english is not my mother tongue language so my posts may looks rough and i apologize for that.

    I'll tell you why bother ....

    I just love to read about several religions and i have materials about many religions but christians are more close to me i guess more than others maybe because i have many christian friends and also i used to talk about it with my finace (she is a christian) and she taught me alot that's why i'm familiar with it and she was asking me to convert to christianity to be like her but i believe in my religion and at the same time i want to be sure that there are still things in christianity no body can explain it and i'm just looking for answers not to accept as it's as many do so or to learn what christians believe in because i know most of it but just to see why i should believe in it not how i will believe in it and to prove it for me (( EXPLAINATIONS ))... why i should believe in this one or that one while i find things contradict with it in another place in the bible ??? you can say it's somthing push me away from christianity which is ( Questions without Answers ) or you can say with weak or non sense answers sometimes that based in emotions only but not in a proper and professional way.

    i really feel frustrated that Christians see my posts as attacking not as sharing information and discussing about it because we are not in a church for God's sake. Here we supposed to think why is that or that but in the church you have to believe anything there blindly as i discovered by myself and when i was going there sometimes with my finace and asking questions and thier answers was convert then you will understand so i said WHAT THE ??????? :eek:

    It's totally silly because once you ask them they will say God will guide you or go and read and you will understand So i just came in here to find answers for my questions.

    On the other hand, when Christians ask about Islam you will never find any muslim will tell you please why you are attacking us :tsk: but he will be happy to hear from you even though you are just fooling around trying to attack but why does it supposed to bother any muslim if he/she really believe in Islam.

    Nevertheless, I found out most of Christians depends in love and emotion which the church put in thier mind as they were trying with me but actually i couldn't accept it because thier explainations were non sense to me and when i came to find answers here everybody thought i'm attacking and they remain just quite hopless without answers for things they supposed to know more than me as christians but they choosed to believe in it blindly and it's thier own business because i know It's just the psychology thing go along with media which makes anyone think that a muslim must attack and the christian must defend.

    When you build this Forum you have should put on the top of it ...

    FOR CHRISTIANS ONLY AND MAYBE FOR OTHER GROUPS BUT NO MUSLIMS ARE ALLOWED TO ENTER :jam: EXCEPT IF THEY TALKED ABOUT THIER OWN FAITH ONLY !!!


    Peace ... :)
     
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  7. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    Truth, I think that the language barrier does seem to be a problem. For example, I understand what you are saying, but the words that you happen to use seem very aggressive. Do you think perhaps we might be able to talk it out through PM? Maybe find a way of asking the same questions but in a way that won't come across as being aggressive? (Since that's apparently not the method you're wanting to use.)

    I honestly don't think that we are trying to exclude anyone, and I would feel very badly if my asking you about this has made you feel this way.
     
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  8. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Hi Truth,

    I must say that I wasn't sure about you either, but this thread is a legitimate question. I think that the fact that you study the Bible is a good thing. While I sense that we probably will disagree in RF, the fact that you are here is most interesting. How can we not all study everything?

    Many scholars point out the repetition and contradictions in the Bible as being a product of how they were written, meaning that scribes were not merely repeating the words but editing, redacting, and adding to the scriptures.

    I like your rebuttal to the challenge that is made as to what your motives may be. If anything is to be considered as the truth or to be legitimate, it should withstand any challenges that may arise. This is the scientific approach. While you may have made mistakes in debating that caused the question of your motives, I am not seeing it that way here.

    As to Paul, you are not alone in questioning him or what is written about him. In my studies, I have run into some very interesting passages that seem to challenge the idead that Paul was a true apostle of Jesus. Let me share one with you.



    12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.

    13 And he performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.




    And so, the Book of Revelation is bound to raise more controversy than you or anyone else would be able to encite. John of Patmos, a bitter exile to some, was objecting to what was going on within Christianity in his time and what he saw as the future of Christianity. It is no surprise that he would have trouble with Paul, a lot of people did. The defenders of Paul, or those that consider him to be the word, whill not take kindly to criticism of him in the Bible itself. John was a genius at sliding this in under everyones noses and if they fully understood him the Book of Revelation would have never made it.

    To study and question and take some lumps in the process is just the way it is, the road to enlightenment is very rocky at times.
     
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  9. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Hi, Truth

    An interest set of passages indeed. And indeed it first looks contradictory.

    So let's clear it up:

    In John 12, Jesus is at a feast, and He delivers a speech, that ends in a very brief prayer to God.

    Verses 27 = FATHER, SAVE ME FROM THIS HOUR: BUT FOR THIS CAUSE CAME I UNTO THIS HOUR.

    Then Jesus does something interesting. Knowing that Deuteronomy 34:10 says: AND THERE AROSE NOT A PROPHET SINCE IN ISRAEL LIKE UNTO MOSES, WHOM THE LORD KNEW FACE TO FACE, Jesus does an amazing thing:

    He says in verse 28a: FATHER, GLORIFY THY NAME.

    Normally that wouldn't have been too smart a move, especially in front of a crowd; but watch what happens next:

    Verse 28b: THERE CAME A VOICE FROM HEAVEN SAYING: I HAVE BOTH GLORIFIED IT, AND WILL GLORIFY IT AGAIN.

    Now, catch what happens next:

    Verse 29: THE PEOPLE THEREFORE, THAT STOOD BY, AND HEARD IT, SAID THAT IT THUNDERED: OTHERS SAID, AN ANGEL SPAKE TO HIM.

    So the point of all this is that the large company of people who would have been with Paul on the road to Damascus that day basically did the same thing. They reported they heard a sound and/or a voice, but couldn't make out the words.
     
  10. Kowalski

    Kowalski Active Member

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    The only thing you should bear in mind, is that without Paul, there would be no Western Christianity. As to his motives and split with the Jerusalem sect, a good move, since James and what was left of the Jesus cult perished along with the bandits when Jerusalem was destroyed by Titus in AD70.

    As to whether or not Saul's conversion actually occured in the fashion the bible related, I don't know, but Idoubt it.

    K
     
  11. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Bennett,

    What's this have to do with the price of tea in Patmos?

    How does this passage seem to challenge Paul's apostleship?

    In Acts Chapter 1:15-26, the disciples make a BIG mistake.

    At the very first Christian business meeting ever, one of the items on the agenda is to nominate a person to replace Judas, who had killed himself. Peter, who is officiating, lays out the criteria for the nominee, and mistakenly they nominate two people: Justus and Matthias. Then, to add insult to injury, they cast lots to see which one God would choose, and the lot falls on Matthias. (Although they prayed first, they should have waited for the reply.)

    In any event, you never hear of Matthias doing anything after that.

    Had the disciples waited, they would have realized that God's choice was for Saul of Tarsus to take Judas' place, not Matthias.
     
  12. Kowalski

    Kowalski Active Member

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    And whose word do we have for that revelation ?

    K
     
  13. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    John, who was ordered to write what he saw - (Revelation 1:11; 2:1, 8, 12, 18; 3:1, 7, 12, 14; 10:4 [told not to write]; 14:13; 19:9; and 21:5).
     
  14. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Hi AV 1611,

    Well....... you have answered part of the question yourself. It seems that Paul is the only one of all of those disciples that gained notoriety in the first century. Therefore, John of Patmos, in his objections, would be talking about who? Sure Paul was prolific and became the chief prosyletizer, but this doesn't mean that he didn't have any detractors. Read the metaphor again. It is saying, in a veiled language, that someone, who has the power of Rome at their back, is causing people to worship Jesus by performing a great sign coming from the Sky.
    Sure, I took this out of context, but it is true within the context of Revelation. And so, it is Paul that John of Patmos has a problem with. John wasn't buying into the self appointed apostleship of Paul and doubted greatly the sign that Paul and his witnesses claimed to have happened.

    What most interpreters of Revelation overlook is the interchangeable use of the word "beast". They only talk of one beast when there are actually several and one of them is Jesus, whose wound was healed. Therefore the word beast is used in place of an actual name and this allowed John to state his case in metaphorical form. A purely literal interpretation provides nothing in the way of understanding what John was saying.

    What kind of tea do you think that John drank? :sarcastic
     
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  15. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Yes Kowalski

    The academic standard of quoting sources is good scholarship. What I have not found so far, is anyone else adequately explaining Chapter 13 of Revelation. There are all kinds of whacky theories and mythological interpretations of this chapter out there, but they all created scenarios that are continually pushed into the future because they can't provide any proof themselves. Therefore, I came to this conclusion after years of study and analyzing. I know a lot of Christians aren't going to like it, but this is what Revelation is saying.

    I know people will kick at it, but until someone can come up with a definitively better or more accurate interpretation to disprove this interpretation, I will still consider it to be the best one at the present.
     
  16. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    How do you come to that conclusion? They weren't competing for notoriety. They had a very serious job to do. Namely, spread the Gospel in a hostile world. They knew very well Jesus's words: BUT MANY THAT ARE FIRST SHALL BE LAST; AND THE LAST SHALL BE FIRST - (Matthew 19:30).

    There is no therefore, and John of Patmos had no axe to grind with anyone. As I said before, John was told several times to write what he saw, not write what he thought.

    No argument there.

    No it's not saying that. It talks about a city called Mystery Babylon, and I can assure you that neither you nor I know what city that is right now. I don't care how much scholarship one puts into it, we aren't going to know until the time comes.

    And, Mystery Babylon is going to get them to worship the Antichrist, not Jesus.

    No it's not. No prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation - (2 Peter 1:20).

    Read Galatians. Paul and John had perfect agreement with one another. Specifically Galatians 2:9, where, after Paul meets with the Disciples and gives his testimony we read:

    AND WHEN JAMES, CEPHAS, AND JOHN, WHO SEEMED TO BE PILLARS, PERCEIVED THE GRACE THAT WAS GIVEN UNTO ME, THEY GAVE TO ME AND BARNABAS THE RIGHT HANDS OF FELLOWSHIP; THAT WE SHOULD GO UNTO THE HEATHEN, AND THEY UNTO THE CIRCUMCISION.

    I'm familiar with the interchangeability of the word "beast" in Revelation 13. It is referring to the Antichrist rising out of the sea of humanity to become a world power within a very short period of time.

    Any connection of the beast to Jesus would be blasphemy.

    Jesus' wounds were never healed. The wound mentioned is a head wound.

    Psalm 68:21 = BUT GOD SHALL WOUND THE HEAD OF HIS ENEMIES:

    Genesis 3:15 = AND I WILL PUT ENMITY BETWEEN THEE AND THE WOMAN, AND BETWEEN THY SEED AND HER SEED; IT SHALL BRUISE THY HEAD, AND THOU SHALT BRUISE HIS HEEL.

    Satan struck first, literally bruising Jesus' heels on the Cross, but now it's God's turn, and, as one preacher once put it aptly, we Christians are in a family of head busters.

    That's right. The Anitchrist is going to be a real person.

    John had no case to state. As I said before, he had no choice but to:

    WRITE THE THINGS WHICH THOU HAST SEEN, AND THE THINGS WHICH ARE, AND THE THINGS WHICH SHALL BE HEREAFTER - (Revelation 1:19)

    We're not going to know everything until that day actually comes.
     
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  17. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    A biologist or engineer would certainly value criticism of their works. In fact, many scientific works and textbooks are prefaced with invitations for readers to write or E-mail the authors with criticism and corrections. Second editions of such technical works contain additions, deletions, clarifications and corrections.

    The lack of such invitations in religious works, indeed the almost universal lack of second editions despite centuries of printings leads one to suspect that the proponents of these works are less interested in truth and accuracy than they are in blind acceptance.

    Considering that religious authorities often insist that these tomes are of immeasurable importance to the individual's eternal soul and to society in general, you'd think these authorities would be absolutely consumed with the scrupulous accuracy and clarity of every jot and tittle, yet, historically, they have often reacted violently to the least hint of criticism.

    I'd like to thank The Truth for his/her criticism of this religious work. Real Christians should heap praise on The truth for taking the time to assist in the clarification of work they hold so important -- especially inasmuch as The Truth is not even a member of the Christian community.
     
  18. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Sure thing, Seyorni --- here's to you, The Truth:

    FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED. --- Matthew 5:18

    And here's to you, Seyorni:

    THE WORDS OF THE LORD ARE PURE WORDS: AS SILVER TRIED IN A FURNACE OF EARTH, PURIFIED SEVEN TIMES. --- Psalm 12:6
     
  19. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    Now, Now Scott1 that sounds a little condencending let us try and be a little more patient and examine what the brother has taken the liberty to research for us.
     
  20. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    What is there to examine?
     
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