Another question for atheists...

As a Christian, I have found that believing in a God that loves me unconditionally, and One that tells me that I am valuable simply because I am made in His image (not because of anything I do or earn), gives me a lot of hope, reason, purpose, and meaning in life. I feel that my worth is based on something solid, something concrete. And because of this, it doesn't matter what people say or do to me--I am secure in the knowledge of my true worth. So if one does not believe in God, and believes that they are a product of mere chance, how does one find meaning in their existence? If everything is relative, is one's inherent worth then relative?

The reason I ask this is because I have not had the easiest life, and if I see my life as something that is only a product of chance, and everything bad that's come my way as the basis for my feelings of self worth, then I would simply despair. I've heard it said that 'religion' is a crutch for weak people--well, it IS a crutch in many ways! But how do those of you who don't believe in God deal with the harshness and bitter realities of life? Where does your true worth come from? (Not being judgmental here--just want to know! )

We were created to have fellowship with God, and anything aside from that will leave an empty feeling, or a "God shaped hole". We find fulfilment in just "hanging out" with the Lord.

OK, I’m not technically an atheist, as I’m Jewish and do believe in God in my own strange way, but I tend to lean more towards atheistic beliefs than traditional religious ones, so I’ll try to answer.

First, I don’t believe I’m a product of mere chance. I believe I’m the product of millions and millions of years of evolution, which is completely different.
OK, now, I for one find being a part of the universe to be...well, a bit of a privilege really, as the place is so incredible. I mean, I find a certain amount of self-worth in that. It’s sort of a “wow, this is amazing, everything’s amazing, I’m amazingâ€? sort of a feeling, although that doesn’t really do it justice.

I believe that I have worth as a human. I don’t base my self-worth on bad stuff that’s happened, I base it on...well, my potential, if you see what I mean. I value the best qualities humanity has, and I value the fact that they do or can exist in me.

So yeah, bad stuff happens, and yeah, I often don’t know what’s going on or why or anything like that, but I really can’t despair. I love life too much.

*sighs* I really can’t explain my beliefs well; I’m not eloquent enough. But hopefully this gives you a bit of an idea.

As a Christian, I have found that believing in a God that loves me unconditionally, and One that tells me that I am valuable simply because I am made in His image (not because of anything I do or earn), gives me a lot of hope, reason, purpose, and meaning in life. I feel that my worth is based on something solid, something concrete. And because of this, it doesn't matter what people say or do to me--I am secure in the knowledge of my true worth.

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First I just want to say that if you get all of that out of belief in god, more power to ya girl! I personally do not believe in god, but I respect the emotional stability that the idea of god brings you.

So if one does not believe in God, and believes that they are a product of mere chance, how does one find meaning in their existence? If everything is relative, is one's inherent worth then relative?

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I'm just glad to be alive, you know? I get joy out of life. Life is so wonderful--so full of different people and cultures and things to do, etc. Everything is a new adventure for me. I don't need god to tell me what my purpose is--I make my own purpose.

I don't need to do things because I think it's what god would want. I do things because I am internally motivated to do them. I'm still a good person--my morals are practically identical to the average Christian--I just interpret my life differently. When I look at a tree, I see the wonder and beauty of science, not god. Personally, I think the complexity and delicacy that is science makes a tree seem much more fanatstic than to think it was created by a simple 'snap of the fingers'.

But how do those of you who don't believe in God deal with the harshness and bitter realities of life? Where does your true worth come from?

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Personally, I think dealing with pain and suffering in life would be more difficult with a belief in god. I mean, how can you deal with the fact that there is someone up there who could prevent all of the evil in your life, but who chooses not to?

When something bad happens to me, I just shake it off. For me, it's just another part of life. When I'm really down in the dumps, I know that things can only get better, and realize that nothing stays bad for very long. I lean on my friends for support, and learn from the bad to create good in the future. I like to think of myself as an optimistic person .

As far as self-worth goes...I dunno, I guess I just have it. I don't need to have the 'knowledge' that god created me individually from everyone else for my own unique purpose to feel important. I am important because I say I am important, simple as that. Like any teen, my self-esteem goes through rough patches, but low is not the norm for me.

Hope, I am interested in how you would answer your own questions. Could you explain to me how god gives you self worth, or how god gives you purpose? It seems to me that your purpose would be to get to heaven, but if so, why not just kill yourself now?

We were created to have fellowship with God, and anything aside from that will leave an empty feeling, or a "God shaped hole". We find fulfilment in just "hanging out" with the Lord.

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That would be a matter of opinion, certainly. After turing Atheist (I used to be Catholic), I felt the greatest sense of freedom and self that I ever have before. Those feelings stick with me even today.

Hope-- Great question!

First of all, let me say that if beleiving in something makes you happy and gives you meaning in your life, then by all means--believe.

So if one does not believe in God, and believes that they are a product of mere chance, how does one find meaning in their existence?

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The first thing for me is, I don't create a reality for myself because of how it makes me feel. Reality is reality, whether it makes me feel good or not.

I used to think I could never be happy or moral unless I believed in God. But I always questioned anyway (I suppose I was more interested in my idealistic view of the objective 'truth' than in being happy or moral lol), and my questioning has lead me to conclude that an all powerful omniscient creation-spirit is just like any other religious belief in human history, with no more relevance to reality than Zeus or Thor or witchcraft. I realized that religious beliefs are unfounded and only survive because they serve as explanations where, psychologically, ANY explanation would be preferable to none (even an imagined one); because of how they make us feel; and because they provide stability and conformity in our societies. What happened after this line of thinking completely surprised me.

I started thinking of "God" in different ways. I started thinking that, perhaps, the transcendental "God" that many people believe in in Western culture is really just a personification of the cosmos itself, and how individuals and society regard it...with awe, humility, and a desire to carry out its "will"/be in harmony with it.

Beleive it or not, but when as realized I was an atheist, I began to feel free. It was as if I was seeing the world as it was for the first time. Suddenly I felt like my mind was out of the Matrix or something...I could suddenly look at the world and think about it and respond to it without all the a priori baggage that I had previously struggled to reconcile. I could suddenly think for myself, and question things that I had previously thought it "wrong" to question. You see, that's what religion does...it makes you feel guilty for doing that which is perfectly normal--questioning. Finding your own answers.

To my own surprise, I didn't become depressed. I realized that we can choose how to feel about something...but we can't choose what the something is. I want to know what the universe is, but I've already made a choice as to how I feel about it--call it an atheist's faith, if you will.

That's right, you heard me! Faith. I think faith is perfectly acceptable when it comes to emotions. After all, outside of 'me' there is no 'correct' way to feel about things. How I feel doesn't have to be logical at all. I think of my faith as acceptance. Acceptance that, ultimately, I don't know, and that's okay. Acceptance that, even though it doesn't all make sense to me, perhaps it wasn't meant to, and that's okay too. Acceptance that the universe is greater than I am, and yet it would never be the same without me, either. It's a stoic, humble, attitude towards the infinite cosmos and my place in it, and I must say I get a great deal of satisfaction and inner peace from it.

I am in complete awe of this vast, incomprehensibly complex cosmos that we live in. It's a universe in which matter condenses and forms gaseous ringed planets, huge red giant stars, and spectacular spiral galaxies; in which organic matter forms in a stunning variety of atmospheres and oceans and climates, and develops into cells and life forms so bizarre and beautiful that I am reminded of thousands of images of ants running, sharks capturing prey, gorillas nursing their young, flowers blooming, and groups of flamingos taking off, all racing through my mind, as if cued to the music of 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Are we no more than organisms, no more than cells, no more than matter, you ask? To that I say, what do you mean, "no more"?! Do you require something more beautiful, more complex, more utterly inspiring than the invisible interactions of an incomprehensible number of electrons and protons with positive and negative charges, the incredible complexity of a single strand of DNA, the intricacies of our brain's 'software'--our cultures, our languages, our capacity for imagination? Who needs to believe in any 'extra' stuff to appreciate the chaotic beauty of our cosmos?

Compared to some advanced alien race, we are like a colony of ants. And yet, can you honestly look at a colony of ants, and not appreciate them for what they are? Would you honestly say to them "Hey, you ants! You aren't important, and you can't accomplish anything!" This, despite the fact that they have a complex society and create structures we humans could never dream of building on a similar scale. I say, go forth, little ants! Take part in your ant societies, do what it is that makes you ants; and multiply, because the universe is just that much more interesting and beautiful with you in it than it would be without you.

I know I've been ranting...but I really feel passionately about the meaning of life and so forth. Who are we? What are we? We have only begun to discover the answers to these questions. And yet, somehow, the fact that these questions have not been definitively answered only makes the journey that much more exciting.

*edit* I think this about sums it up: "Beauty is truth, truth beauty" ~John Keats

Sprinkles it is obvious you do not know "Fire Ants!"

Mr._Spinkles said:

The first thing for me is, I don't create a reality for myself because of how it makes me feel. Reality is reality, whether it makes me feel good or not

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Everytime we make a choice or decision, we create our own reality.

Lightkeeper--When I stand up and go get some dinner, how am I creating my own reality? Will no one else be able to see me making that decision?

Ronald-- lol, ah but even things that are harmful to us are still beautiful in their own way.

Lightkeeper--When I stand up and go get some dinner, how am I creating my own reality? Will no one else be able to see me making that decision?

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Want to clarify this? It doesn't make sense to me. Anything you choose to do creates your reality.

Lightkeeper-- you said:

Everytime we make a choice or decision, we create our own reality.

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When I make a decision, it doesn't create my own reality, it simply has an affect on the one, single reality that everyone experiences.

My original point was, I don't sit back and imagine nice thoughts to come up with answers about the world...I put my imagination and my nice thoughts aside and step out into the real world and look for evidence outside of my inner 'feelings'.

Thanx to all of you for your unique and in-depth replies to my question. I've gleaned a little more insight! I really and truly admire your attitudes toward life and what it all means to you--the good and the bad. You are much stronger than me in your positive outlook! I am by nature, unfortunately, the type of person who sees the the glass half-empty most of the time. That, combined, with all the crap I've gone through in my life, has kind of worked against me.

Which brings me to the questions you asked, Ceridwen. I'm glad you asked. First of all, you wondered how I could still believe in God, when He allowed all those bad things I went through. I have only been a Christian for 7 years now, even though I grew up in a Christian home--most of my life I actually hated God, for the very reason you brought up. I went to church every Sunday, knew every Bible story from birth practically--from all outward appearances I was a perfect little Christian. But it was all a show, to make my parents and everyone else think I was the good little Christian girl I was supposed to be. But I actually hated God, blaming Him for everything bad that I was going through, and constantly asking Him how He could claim to love me and yet let me be so miserable. I was wallowing in self-pity, thinking everything was God's fault, and just eaten up with anger and bitterness--not only towards Him, but towards all those who had hurt me so deeply. You mentioned killing oneself--the times I have come so close to doing just that I cannot even count. ( Depression has been one of my major struggles in life. )

Well, pretty much what happened was that I simply came to the end of myself, so to speak. I figured I would give God a shot--I was desperate. Plus, I thought, if there really is a hell, then I'm screwed. So that was when I became a Christian, and all I can say is that my life changed after that, and for the first time in years, I felt truly happy, and free from all that bitterness and hate junk I'd been holding on to. That's not to say, though, that my life has been a piece of cake since then--any Christian who tells you that's what's supposed to happen, is deceiving you--it's just I have a totally different perspective now. And I'm not gonna lie to you and say that I never have doubts, that I never question God, that I never still occasionally wonder why He's let me go through stuff--there are still times when I really get frustrated and mad at Him! I am by no means perfect. I am simply a work in progress. But the difference in my life now is that I know who I am--I am a beloved daughter of God. He loves me no matter what I do. Like with good earthly fathers--their children should know that they are valuable and loveable, even when they do bad things. Their worth is not dependent on how well they perform, or what they look like ( I'm talking about the ideal parent-to-chlid relationship, of course )--their worth is simply in the fact that they are the father's children. Nothing more, nothing less. He loves them unconditionally, simply for who they are. And that's how I see my relationship to God. Knowing this gives me an idea of my true worth. It's not dependent on what I look like, what people say about me, how I dress, what I do, etc, etc. Seeing God as my true father also gives me a reason to live, a purpose, because I know He knows what's best for me ultimately, and that if I will only learn to trust in Him, He will direct me in exciting, new paths. I think He is a God of adventure and beauty and surprises. And I love all three!

I of course could never give a solid reason why God has allowed me to go through many painful things, but I do know now, in looking back, that it has helped shape and mold me in certain ways. For instance, I am a deeply empathetic person, and have a heart for others who have suffered, and want to help them. I most likely would not be that way if I hadn't suffered myself!

I hope this answers some questions. Mr. Spinkles, thank you for sharing what you did--you sound like me in a lot of ways, actually, with the major difference being our 'faiths.' I am always in awe of this world and this universe. It is indeed humbling to know how tiny we are in all of it, and how complex everything is. I love nature and animals too--even ants! (Excepting the fire ants, of course.) When I was little I used to sit for ages, in total fascination, watching ants scurrying about and doing their work at their mounds.

I love beauty in every form. The difference is I see God as the source of the beauty. I am not content to just look at the beauty--I want there to be a reason behind it. I believe that the beauty we see in nature is a mere shadow, or reflection, of the beauty of God.

Well, I've said enough!

Hope-- thanks for sharing that with us! I appreciate your views and your story.

I am not content to just look at the beauty--I want there to be a reason behind it.

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Oh, but there are reasons behind it, reasons that never cease to astound us--reasons we can discover through science.

Hope, that was a refreshing question that carried none of the holier-than-thou rhetoric I've come to expect from Christians asking that question. That's why your Karma's shooting up

There are a number of answers to your original question from my point of view:

1) Meaning is overrated. I do not need a greater meaning to enjoy life; I content myself with building as good a life as I can for myself on this Earth, cherishing what I have because I know that this life is all I get. I believe that the atheistic belief lends itself to the most fulfilling life. Why? Because atheists know that they get one chance at life, and they're thus motivated to make the most of it.

2) Meaning in humanity. Whenever I do find myself contemplating greater meaning, I generally look towards humanity as a whole. As an engineer, I look forward to inventing new technologies or improving existing ones, representing progress for the human race as a whole. That's a contribution to our civilization that will long outlast my existance, and thus I derive meaning through a desire to leave behind a legacy. Look at Einstein, Fermi or Marconi -- all men who left behind legacies, giving their lives meaning whether or not they believed in God.

Hope that answered your question, Hope.

Not believing in God doesn't necessarility mean that your life has no purpose. We GIVE it purpose whether it has one or not. Basically, it is okay to think "I'm here by accident, but since I AM here I will try to do something good with the time I have." And whether or not a person really DOES have inherent worth and dignity, we know that treating people as if they were valuable or worthy of respect makes them feel good, and (for the most part) people who feel good about themselves are more likely to contribute positively to society than those who do NOT feel good about themselves. Also, I do not feel sad or uncomfortable about the idea that there isn't a God to love me... I have friends and family who love me even without God, and I love others as well.

We have minds; with our minds, we literally decide what is real and what is not (in terms of subjective questions--Are we important? Do our lives have purpose? Is there such thing as good and evil?) Deciding something is reality, and then behaving according to that belief, EVEN IF IT IS NOT OBJECTIVELY TRUE, still has benefits to us as humans.