• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Are you capable of Loving Unconditionally????

ellenjanuary

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
Bird123 said:
Is unconditional love really only an ideal or is it a choice we all can make? Should we just react to life, allowing hate to rule when the news is bad??? I realize it isn't always easy.
Click to expand...

The example of "unconditional love" presented above is "mother and child." I disagree. All I got from my mother is a political position - ma always said I should have been an abortion, and I have never failed to disagree, therefore I am pro-choice. Research allows me to summate that relationship to evolutionary imperative...

/rant nipped in bud. What is "unconditional" about love? To me, it's more "true Christian" shenanigans. :p
 
magalaan

magalaan

Member
Bird123 said:
In my view we are all children of God regardless of the bad choices some make. Doesn't everyone deserve unconditional love??? If one is not willing to do this, isn't there hate of some sort in their heart? Unconditional love for evil people does not mean give them everything they want. Shouldn't we give them what they really need to understand what their evil choice really means?? Clearly they do not understand. Yes, we need to start with the man in the mirror, however sometimes we do not always see what is needed. To be willing to help others can be a catalyst to change ourselves as well. Granted, people want to be famous. Some do a lot of things toward this goal, but is this really in every case?? I have met wonderful people who help but for no other reason than kindness. When it's done, no one ever knows about it. There are more selfless people out there than you realize. Does sticking by your child ruin a life???? I guess that depends on how one defines ruin. You never know. Life might have been a bigger mess had not been for the problem that needed to be solved. Wisdom was gained on the journey to solve the problem. perhaps the life was wonderful after all.
Click to expand...
I think that every being deserves Respect and unconditional Love for their Divine nature. But this Love is different from the love opposed to hate. Love and hate are binding us to a subject. Divine Love frees us from bonds. The difference is nicely stated in Sting's song: If you love somebody, set them free.

It is not at all rare that parents will stick by their children no matter what they do. We see the same with husbands and wives. This bond can even go as far as helping them in their crimes. The same with soldiers that will shoot anyone on order, unconditional loyalty.

I think unconditional love for the Divine essence of a person is shown by at all times treating people (actually all beings) with respect for the integrity of their mind and body no matter what they have done. (I think we are losing that today). If we can do that even if we hate a person for his actions we show Divine Love and it actually frees us.

I do not say that sticking by a child is wrong, but I do not see it as a obligation when it does horrible things. I think it is healthy that a child knows that even parents have limits in what they accept from it. There are some kind of people I will distance myself from, even if they are my own child.

Again I think this is something where Christianity somewhat differs from other religions. In Christianity forgiveness is something of an obligation. I think it is very good to let go of ill feelings for your own sake, but i do not see this as an obligation.

I find it a bit insensitive that Christians who hurt people ask for their forgiveness and this is seen as something good. I would find it more proper if they would ask for a way to undo the damage, not forgiveness. Yesterday I saw a documentary about escaped Texas prisoners who ruthlessly killed someone and one of them shot himself on capture but left a note to ask his victims parents for forgiveness. And now we are supposed to think, he wasn't such a bad guy, he asked for forgiveness. I think, this is rather a selfish act. He did wrong, but he wanted to be forgiven for it. He wanted to come clean and save his soul.

Like soldiers that kill innocent people in the course of war, but every day ask for forgiveness so they feel relieved and can go on. This easily becomes a mechanism for repeated wrong doing. It you are aware you do wrong, you should stop doing it rather than ask forgiveness. In my opinion Christians are overdoing it when it comes to unconditional love and forgiveness. Things driven to extremes easily become the opposite.
 
Last edited:
Orias

Orias

Left Hand Path
Mestemia said:
Does this directing have to be intentional or even conscience?

I ask because I know several people who fall in love with another person and are completely oblivious to it until it is pointed out.
And some times they go into complete denial about it.
Click to expand...

Well from my experience love is one of those things that pops up on you unexpectedly, so it can be either or both, it can even be neither.

Love is essentially recoginition, which means that it can happen with intention or by coinsidence, but either way interaction is necessary.

Mestemia said:
Like people who are in love with an idea of a person (I.E. prince charming) and when they find someone who "fits" into their idea they transfer their love for the idea onto the one they think "fits" said idea.

Or am I off into left field?
Click to expand...

Thats pretty much exactly what I am saying, except most of the time their "prince charming" ends up to a total doosh ;)
 
Bird123

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Orias said:
Cats don't pollute the Earth with green house gases, cats don't threaten overpopulating the Earth, cats don't prejudge intetions, and ultimately cats don't kill each other, unless of course it is two males competing for dominance, which death is still rare upon that occurance.

It seems that every animal besides humans do what they need to survive without doing any unneccesary damage or conflict.

Did you know that the overpopulation of jellyfish around Japan is threatening the ocean life around it?

Its not because jellyfish naturally produce this much, but constant fishing over fishing of areas means that eventually fishermen will start catching jellyfish, when jellyfish get caught they release their reproductive fluids into the ocean and spawn more jellyfish, and then fishermen go out and catch more jellyfish. The pattern should be obvious, if you fail at something, reconsider and try a new approach, don't try the same thing again.

Being "intelligent" is far more misleading than it sounds.
Click to expand...
With greater intelligence comes greater capabilities. Greater capabilities require greater responsibilities. Problems point the direction mankind needs to study. Study breeds discovery that will bring solutions. It is a never ending cycle of learning. This world was designed to handle this. I agree with you on one thing. If we do the same thing over and over, how can we expect different results? Somebody just wants something for nothing. We know how that one will turn out. This world has many people. Those who see must point the way to those who don't have a clue. Mankind needs to work harder on taking care of this planet. In time, they will see. Keep pointing. You never know when it will make a big difference.
 
Bird123

Bird123

Well-Known Member
ellenjanuary said:
The example of "unconditional love" presented above is "mother and child." I disagree. All I got from my mother is a political position - ma always said I should have been an abortion, and I have never failed to disagree, therefore I am pro-choice. Research allows me to summate that relationship to evolutionary imperative...

/rant nipped in bud. What is "unconditional" about love? To me, it's more "true Christian" shenanigans. :p
Click to expand...
Do all mothers love unconditionally????? I think not. How can you ever agree that you should have been aborted??? All the secrets of the universe stare us in the face yet we are blind to seeing so many of them. Clearly your mother and you are blind if you think you have made no difference in this world. This world is a mosaic of interwoven connections of interaction among people. The dynamics are amazing. It's sometimes hard to see the difference we do make with such a narrow view we carry. We must work to broaden our view to be able to see what really is.
 
Bird123

Bird123

Well-Known Member
magalaan said:
I think that every being deserves Respect and unconditional Love for their Divine nature. But this Love is different from the love opposed to hate. Love and hate are binding us to a subject. Divine Love frees us from bonds. The difference is nicely stated in Sting's song: If you love somebody, set them free.

It is not at all rare that parents will stick by their children no matter what they do. We see the same with husbands and wives. This bond can even go as far as helping them in their crimes. The same with soldiers that will shoot anyone on order, unconditional loyalty.

I think unconditional love for the Divine essence of a person is shown by at all times treating people (actually all beings) with respect for the integrity of their mind and body no matter what they have done. (I think we are losing that today). If we can do that even if we hate a person for his actions we show Divine Love and it actually frees us.

I do not say that sticking by a child is wrong, but I do not see it as a obligation when it does horrible things. I think it is healthy that a child knows that even parents have limits in what they accept from it. There are some kind of people I will distance myself from, even if they are my own child.

Again I think this is something where Christianity somewhat differs from other religions. In Christianity forgiveness is something of an obligation. I think it is very good to let go of ill feelings for your own sake, but i do not see this as an obligation.

I find it a bit insensitive that Christians who hurt people ask for their forgiveness and this is seen as something good. I would find it more proper if they would ask for a way to undo the damage, not forgiveness. Yesterday I saw a documentary about escaped Texas prisoners who ruthlessly killed someone and one of them shot himself on capture but left a note to ask his victims parents for forgiveness. And now we are supposed to think, he wasn't such a bad guy, he asked for forgiveness. I think, this is rather a selfish act. He did wrong, but he wanted to be forgiven for it. He wanted to come clean and save his sou.

Like soldiers that kill innocent people in the course of war, but every day ask for forgiveness so they feel relieved and can go on. This easily becomes a mechanism for repeated wrong doing. It you are aware you do wrong, you should stop doing it rather than ask forgiveness. In my opinion Christians are overdoing it when it comes to unconditional love and forgiveness. Things driven to extremes easily become the opposite.
Click to expand...
Perhaps the key to loving unconditionally is to get rid of all hate. For some, this will require much work. When one understands what hate really is, it's easier to let it go. It might not be understood but hate in any form hurts those who hate. AS for people who do evil, it should always take more than I'm sorry.I'll never do it again. Just like those who hate, they need a much clearer understanding of their actions. Maybe that is why God returns our actions back to us in time. There will be no doubt of what our actions really mean.
 
Vendetta

Vendetta

"Oscar the grouch"
Bird123 said:
Let's give it the test. You have a son. You also have three grandchildren who are the joy of your life. One day, your son, tired of the expense of raising three kids, sets his house on fire and burns up his children, your grandchildren inside. What do you do with your son??


Some people say disown the kid and lock him away forever. Sure society is going to lock him in jail, but what about disowning your son?? Is it unconditional love to disown your son?? I think not!! Are you capable of loving unconditionally or will hate be inside you??


Personally, I would recognize my son had major problems. I would work endlessly on figuring out what caused this problem then do what it takes to solve it.


Don't people paint God in their own image?? Some say God disowns and places people in hell for much less evil than that man's son did. Does it really add up that God is this way?? Is it intelligent to be this way??


If God is Unconditional Love, He can't disown His children. He must solve the problem and love no matter what. Isn't the intelligent thing to do to solve the problem and keep the kid??


Are you capable of loving Unconditionally??
Click to expand...


Sounds like a spin off thread like mines
 
magalaan

magalaan

Member
Bird123 said:
Perhaps the key to loving unconditionally is to get rid of all hate. For some, this will require much work. When one understands what hate really is, it's easier to let it go. It might not be understood but hate in any form hurts those who hate. AS for people who do evil, it should always take more than I'm sorry.I'll never do it again. Just like those who hate, they need a much clearer understanding of their actions. Maybe that is why God returns our actions back to us in time. There will be no doubt of what our actions really mean.
Click to expand...

I think hate and love are part of the same attraction, as long as we are bound to each other love and hate are part of it. Love can hurt you as much as hate. If your child does terrible things you are really hurt even without hating him. It is because he becomes a source of hurt that you may start hating him. Hate and anger are natural reactions to being hurt. To try to impose yourself unconditional love towards people that hurt you is somewhat masochistic. Heroism and masochism go together.

When we direct unconditional love at "our" son, we direct it at something we see as our own, It is self-love in part. Self-love leads to suffering. Suffering can make a person free, there are powerful lessons in suffering, but it is not a pleasant road to take.

I think unconditional Love should be directed towards the Divine, not to ideals, work, sport, or even kin. I think you can love the Divine in anything because it pervades in anything, but it is most rewarding and easiest if we choose things that are worthy of Love by their nature. A son that does horrible things I do not find a very worthy object to love the Divine in.

If my son does terrible things I will accept this as belonging to him, but not to me. Though we call other beings "my" son, they are not really our possession, and ours to control. As they grow up, they follow their own course. Through upbringing we try to give them a good start, but ultimately they will choose their own path.

I can love a tiger as a beautiful creature, but if I regard the tiger mine, than his killings become mine too. A son has to understand that if his actions bring great sorrow to his parents they will dis-own him. They will no longer regard him as theirs. If their son becomes a instrument of suffering, they will no longer want to own this instrument. It is up to himself to choose another path.

Otherwise you reduce the son to an object, an object of unconditional love. But he is more. He has responsibility. He has the ability to make choices and be worthy of the love he is given. Kant argued that people that do wrong should not only be punished, but as a human they have a right to be punished. If you do not punish them you treat them as an object. You love your car but you don't hate it if it breaks down, it is just a car. You repair it and go on loving it. But you expect more from a son. You owe him to expect more.

I do not think that unconditional love as you preach will help create a better world. Neither do I believe a better world is created by striving for a better world. I believe striving for a better me, creates a better world for me and makes me a nicer person for others. Striving for a better world easily lays the responsibility on the world. Damn it, I give it all my love, but it won't change. I think it is not the world that has to improve but me. If all people grow up with that insight, a better world is the obvious result. We are the world.
 
Last edited:
Orias

Orias

Left Hand Path
Bird123 said:
With greater intelligence comes greater capabilities. Greater capabilities require greater responsibilities. Problems point the direction mankind needs to study. Study breeds discovery that will bring solutions. It is a never ending cycle of learning. This world was designed to handle this. I agree with you on one thing. If we do the same thing over and over, how can we expect different results? Somebody just wants something for nothing. We know how that one will turn out. This world has many people. Those who see must point the way to those who don't have a clue. Mankind needs to work harder on taking care of this planet. In time, they will see. Keep pointing. You never know when it will make a big difference.
Click to expand...


Pointing?

I don't know if thats necessarily such a good idea, since mankind is far more manipulative and in for the more gratifying gain of the moment.

Apprehension is far more important, including the evisceration of the destructive.

And I wouldn't say we possess a "greater intelligence", more of an unnecessary intelligence.

But I think most people can blame this "intellectual and spiritual" development on boredom.

As for the problems of the world, I have little hope in Man to restore such a paradise, there are few people capable of understanding such goals and ideals, let alone act upon them.

I wish I could agree with you, but I cannot. I see the harsher things for what they are, and not what people think they should be.
 
Vendetta

Vendetta

"Oscar the grouch"
Bird123 said:
I missed yours. It must have been a good one.
Click to expand...

Well slightly different. My question was more about God but you're on the same track as me :p

To answer your question I developed the idea that most relationships are measured on the basis of a pain and pleasure scale. Continuous pain will cause an individual to cease all relationships with the object or objects that enduce the discomforting feeling. So while a mother or father is capable of loving their offspring without conditions "initially" the only reason why humans gravitate and love things is because there is a positive benefit. Whenever that benefit is jeopardized in a severe fashion there is a retraction of feeling any retraction whether minute or great, contradicts the unconditional feeling.
 
T

Tristesse

Well-Known Member
Bird123 said:
Do all mothers love unconditionally????? I think not. How can you ever agree that you should have been aborted??? All the secrets of the universe stare us in the face yet we are blind to seeing so many of them. Clearly your mother and you are blind if you think you have made no difference in this world. This world is a mosaic of interwoven connections of interaction among people. The dynamics are amazing. It's sometimes hard to see the difference we do make with such a narrow view we carry. We must work to broaden our view to be able to see what really is.
Click to expand...

Maybe the mother knew best for the fetus, and it was out of love that the mother chose abortion.
 
Bird123

Bird123

Well-Known Member
magalaan said:
I think hate and love are part of the same attraction, as long as we are bound to each other love and hate are part of it. Love can hurt you as much as hate. If your child does terrible things you are really hurt even without hating him. It is because he becomes a source of hurt that you may start hating him. Hate and anger are natural reactions to being hurt. To try to impose yourself unconditional love towards people that hurt you is somewhat masochistic. Heroism and masochism go together.

When we direct unconditional love at "our" son, we direct it at something we see as our own, It is self-love in part. Self-love leads to suffering. Suffering can make a person free, there are powerful lessons in suffering, but it is not a pleasant road to take.

I think unconditional Love should be directed towards the Divine, not to ideals, work, sport, or even kin. I think you can love the Divine in anything because it pervades in anything, but it is most rewarding and easiest if we choose things that are worthy of Love by their nature. A son that does horrible things I do not find a very worthy object to love the Divine in.

If my son does terrible things I will accept this as belonging to him, but not to me. Though we call other beings "my" son, they are not really our possession, and ours to control. As they grow up, they follow their own course. Through upbringing we try to give them a good start, but ultimately they will choose their own path.

I can love a tiger as a beautiful creature, but if I regard the tiger mine, than his killings become mine too. A son has to understand that if his actions bring great sorrow to his parents they will dis-own him. They will no longer regard him as theirs. If their son becomes a instrument of suffering, they will no longer want to own this instrument. It is up to himself to choose another path.

Otherwise you reduce the son to an object, an object of unconditional love. But he is more. He has responsibility. He has the ability to make choices and be worthy of the love he is given. Kant argued that people that do wrong should not only be punished, but as a human they have a right to be punished. If you do not punish them you treat them as an object. You love your car but you don't hate it if it breaks down, it is just a car. You repair it and go on loving it. But you expect more from a son. You owe him to expect more.

I do not think that unconditional love as you preach will help create a better world. Neither do I believe a better world is created by striving for a better world. I believe striving for a better me, creates a better world for me and makes me a nicer person for others. Striving for a better world easily lays the responsibility on the world. Damn it, I give it all my love, but it won't change. I think it is not the world that has to improve but me. If all people grow up with that insight, a better world is the obvious result. We are the world.
Click to expand...
We have a our reason half and our feeling half. We must never allow our feeling have to rule over our reason half. One can never attain unconditional love without the reason half in the lead. As you say, it's easy to react to things. If we allow the feeling half to rule, we might one day find ourselves lost in a sea of emotions. It's never fun being lost. We can choose that anger and hate never makes things better. They prevent clear thinking. Mankind values blame. When life gets hard, people look for someone to blame. To hate, they feel somehow passes the pain along. In truth it just hurts themselves. Quality of live depends more on our view than most imagine. I can have very few things yet have a wonderful happy life with a heart filled with unconditional love for everyone I meet. We have the power to choose how and what we value. So many times we allow others to make the choices for us. This is never a good idea. When we change ourselves for the better, we do make the world a better place. We all have the ability to teach others lessons we have already learned. This too helps the world. People change moving even a grain of sand at a time. If you think you aren't changing the world and it hurts you, you are doing it all for the wrong reasons. Unconditional Love has never been about feeding the ego.
 
Storm

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Tristesse said:
Maybe the mother knew best for the fetus, and it was out of love that the mother chose abortion.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but there's a difference between a difficult choice and telling a born child "I should have aborted you." :eek:
 
Bird123

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Orias said:
Pointing?

I don't know if thats necessarily such a good idea, since mankind is far more manipulative and in for the more gratifying gain of the moment.

Apprehension is far more important, including the evisceration of the destructive.

And I wouldn't say we possess a "greater intelligence", more of an unnecessary intelligence.

But I think most people can blame this "intellectual and spiritual" development on boredom.

As for the problems of the world, I have little hope in Man to restore such a paradise, there are few people capable of understanding such goals and ideals, let alone act upon them.

I wish I could agree with you, but I cannot. I see the harsher things for what they are, and not what people think they should be.
Click to expand...
Adversity breeds invention. There will come a point when one must act. People who need to change but refuse hurt until they realize that it's easier to change. Those who point guaranty the answers will be there when one must change. Blame is something mankind values but leads nowhere. Better to keep striving for results. They will show up in time. Know there are variables unseen by most. Just like the distances between planets keep us from corrupting another world before we are ready, there are safeguards for us as well. Can't let the students burn down the schoolhouse. A much higher intelligence will prevent that. There will come a time when kiddies just must clean their rooms.
 
Orias

Orias

Left Hand Path
Bird123 said:
Adversity breeds invention. There will come a point when one must act. People who need to change but refuse hurt until they realize that it's easier to change. Those who point guaranty the answers will be there when one must change. Blame is something mankind values but leads nowhere. Better to keep striving for results. They will show up in time. Know there are variables unseen by most. Just like the distances between planets keep us from corrupting another world before we are ready, there are safeguards for us as well. Can't let the students burn down the schoolhouse. A much higher intelligence will prevent that. There will come a time when kiddies just must clean their rooms.
Click to expand...


Thats the thing though, those who point only guarentee what is already answered, those who point most oftenly don't even know which direction they are pointing, because in the fabric of the Universe, there is no "left, down, right, up", there is just what is.

And people don't like that, because the pointers have led them to believe that they are something bigger and better than what they actually are.

 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top