Chosen People? A Jewish racist ideology

Vendetta said:

I have to disagree....I don't find racism to be a natural byproduct of population growth nor agriculture nor religion.

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Every predator secures his territory from foreigners. it is a law of evolution, which Dawkins has been very wise to compare 100% with human behaviour and the geopolitical reality of nations around the globe in his celebrated work 'The Blind Watchman'.

Humans don't come out of the womb believing they are superior to others based on skin pigmentation. I believe racism is a development of false and stereotypical ideologies of others.

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First thing. I have said nothing of superiority. when you see a different person, your instincts will provoke you to observe and study them, whether if its out of interest or a desire to communicate with them. people ARE different. the whole idea that we are all the SAME is of the realm of Soviet communism.

Jews who subscribe to these tenants in my view are doing a similar act that Hitler did towards them.

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And here lies the core problem and the natural potential for antisemitism.
Jews are NOT supposed to be different from anyone else, including 'Hitler'. Jews are not supposed to be better. not supposed 'to know better than that'. etc. Jews are as racist or non racist as all other people.
No one is impressed by being labelled a Nazi anymore. if anything it is considered a pet on the back for doing a good enough job and hard work to be reckoned with in the world today.

I am just appalled how the supposition within Judaism is that God would favor one specific group of humans over others.

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You are just going to have to get over it. Jews like anyone else, like to feel good about themselves.

I know that Judaism doesn't teach that the Jews were chosen because they're special or superior to non-Jews, but in honesty I've seen some Jews behave like it. I've seen Jews who are totally snotty and don't even like to associate with non-Jews. I knew one in actual life, and though he viewed me with distaste for "going to the ways of the Gentiles", he absolutely abhorred anyone with no Jewish whatsoever.

kai said:

Dont you think all religions believe that their God favours them ? dont Muslims think God favours those that submit? , dont Christians think their God favours them if they accept Christ as their saviour? otherwise whats the point in revelation? or worship,or religious rules and duties other than to gain that favour?

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BINGO.

All major religions believe they got it right and were chosen to deliver a message to the world.
For some reason when the Jews do it, and WITHOUT proselytizing and attempting to convert others as the other major religions, it is a TABOO.
as if this frustration venting is going to change Jewish opinion and tradition.
I would be more worried about religions who number in the billions and believe that. Israel is a nation with 6 millions Jews, most of whom will easily disregard what the learned Rabbi has told the Vendetta as he illustrated in his OP.
I mean really. if that is all he got from Israel. I have no idea what he wasted his time on. what about all the pubs? the fine women? the beaches? the night life? the caffes? the nature reserves?

All you got is a bearded man giving you a religious sermon and that's what stuck with you?
trust me I've travelled more than a dozen European nations. in all of them I've seen Christians (and Muslims) believing just as this Rabbi did. however, I was more interested in the archaeology, drinks, women, caffes, and nature reserves.

I guess some people are just better travellers.

Revoltingest said:

That's a tough question in light of all the violence involved with Israel.

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I've been hearing this alot from Americans on the internet.
I find it sad that Americans are badly indoctrinated to focus on Israel instead of the real major concern. namely their own nation.
lets look at the reality of things. in more than the last 2 decades of Israeli-Palestinian fighting. about 8000 Palestinians have been killed, thousands of them armed men (yes I realize there are other figures, this is the one in the middle I suppose), also some thousands of Israelis were killed.
in the recent war in Iraq led by the Americans, we have reports of Iraqi casualties soaring to the million figure, and I did not even bring Afghanistan, or the studies that claim that millions of Iraqis have died as a result of sanctions imposed on Iraq before the invasion.

So really. a few thousand killed by the Israelis. versus millions in the number of short years by the Americans.

Who is really doing the genocide and ethnic cleansing?

and yet until I was systematically provoked in more than 2 years on this forum to start discussing this and debating it, I gave ALL American forum members a break from having to deal with this.

So, if you really want to discuss all these problems. trust me I have the experience and education to do it eagerly. the only difference is. that I know that the American members will go back to venting while bringing no solutions other than romantic vintage 60's ideas. while the Israelis will then go, study the material, have all the criticism they need over their government, and yet not one educated person to deal with the material constructively.

It is a Daniel Ellsberg scenario all over again.

kai said:

Dont you think all religions believe that their God favours them ? dont Muslims think God favours those that submit? , dont Christians think their God favours them if they accept Christ as their saviour? otherwise whats the point in revelation? or worship,or religious rules and duties other than to gain that favour?

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There is a difference. For spiritual purposes yes but coming from Jerusalem, I've never felt this feeling that many Jews majority from Europe, would subscribe to the tenants of racism. Yes I am familiar there are black jews but my conversation with the rabbi was different. He not only alluded that God favors them above others but he mentions most specifically he used the holocaust as an example. Now, as far as I can recall no black jews or hispanic jews or even asiana died in the concentration camps. There is one thing to justify favoritism using beliefs but its another when you justify race.

Vendetta said:

There is a difference. For spiritual purposes yes but coming from Jerusalem, I've never felt this feeling that many Jews majority from Europe, would subscribe to the tenants of racism. Yes I am familiar there are black jews but my conversation with the rabbi was different. He not only alluded that God favors them above others but he mentions most specifically he used the holocaust as an example. Now, as far as I can recall no black jews or hispanic jews or even asiana died in the concentration camps. There is one thing to justify favoritism using beliefs but its another when you justify race.

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what? are you telling us this guys views as somehow representative of "jews from Europe"? was there many Black jews in europe in the 30s? are you sure he wasnt right in the head? you come from Jerusalem ? you have lost me pal

kai said:

and dont you think Jews have been the least violent and territorial about it, i mean they haven't built vast empires or anything like the other elitist "Abrahamic" religions.

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Jews less violent? Wasn't it jews who fought against the Caananites and the Philistines? Jews aren't exempt either. Wasn't it David who if I can recall correctly sent one of his own soldiers to his death because he was jealous? As far as modern Israel, Israel kills more Palestinians than vice versa (innocents included). No, the nation Israel is like any other place.

kai said:

what? are you telling us this guys views as somehow representative of "jews from Europe"? was there many Black jews in europe in the 30s? are you sure he wasnt right in the head? you have lost me pal

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No. He isn't. I forgot to mention that I spoke with other Jews most notably the ultra-orthodox. I will admit didn't interview a whole bunch (20 people) but 90% believed as the rabbi believed. I guess I focused more on what the rabbi said since he is a "learned man" and figured the general population may subscribe to racist tendencies out of ignorance but never thought a man who is learned in faith would too subscribe to this and instruct his.members.

Vendetta said:

There is a difference. For spiritual purposes yes but coming from Jerusalem, I've never felt this feeling that many Jews majority from Europe, would subscribe to the tenants of racism. Yes I am familiar there are black jews but my conversation with the rabbi was different. He not only alluded that God favors them above others but he mentions most specifically he used the holocaust as an example. Now, as far as I can recall no black jews or hispanic jews or even asiana died in the concentration camps. There is one thing to justify favoritism using beliefs but its another when you justify race.

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How far are you willing to take the history lesson? I have the information you are looking for. how objective are you to examine it?

Vendetta said:

Jews less violent? Wasn't it jews who fought against the Caananites and the Philistines? Jews aren't exempt either. Wasn't it David who if I can recall correctly sent one of his own soldiers to his death because he was jealous? As far as modern Israel, Israel kills more Palestinians than vice versa (innocents included). No, the nation Israel is like any other place.

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well lets stick to history not folklore and have ever heard of a Jewish Empire? or the Jewish equivalent of a Holy Roman Empire or anything like the Islamic empires but Jewish?

and Israeli/Palestinian issues are in lots of threads

Vendetta said:

Jews less violent? Wasn't it jews who fought against the Caananites and the Philistines? Jews aren't exempt either. Wasn't it David who if I can recall correctly sent one of his own soldiers to his death because he was jealous? As far as modern Israel, Israel kills more Palestinians than vice versa (innocents included). No, the nation Israel is like any other place.

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Oh my God. this is going from bad to worst.

They are only doing what they think is right I am sure.

Caladan said:

Oh my God. this is going from bad to worst.

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Why is it going from bad to worse? Let me clear up my position. I do not think Jews are racist nor do I believe Judaism is racist. I guess in order for you to under you would have to be a non-jew and in these kinds of discussions to understand. This wasn't some night in New York I was in Jerusalem, home of the ancient three faiths. I learned a great deal. WhT is it that I am missing from your point?

Vendetta said:

Why is it going from bad to worse? Let me clear up my position. I do not think Jews are racist nor do I believe Judaism is racist. I guess in order for you to under you would have to be a non-jew and in these kinds of discussions to understand. This wasn't some night in New York I was in Jerusalem, home of the ancient three faiths. I learned a great deal. WhT is it that I am missing from your point?

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I've been living in Israel for 31 years. and I can tell you that the kind of Rabbi you have been talking to has only been eating **** from people like me.
yet I'll always be at awe by their determination for self preservation, family values, Torah studies. despite their abominable dogmas.

Caladan said:

Every predator secures his territory from foreigners. it is a law of evolution, which Dawkins has been very wise to compare 100% with human behaviour and the geopolitical reality of nations around the globe in his celebrated work 'The Blind Watchman'.

This is quite different from racism. Looking at racism.from its historical context whites had developed a system in which skin pigmentation genetically lead to whether you were superior or inferior. This had nothing to do with survival. Like revolutionist said, the potentiality is there but it must be developed.



First thing. I have said nothing of superiority. when you see a different person, your instincts will provoke you to observe and study them, whether if its out of interest or a desire to communicate with them. people ARE different. the whole idea that we are all the SAME is of the realm of Soviet communism.

I never said you mentioned anything about superiority I am.clearly defining one of the attributes of racism. As I mentioned above, historically whites who subscribed to racism and slavery used the ideology that their race was better based on skin pigmentstion. In fact, in an history class during my undergrad study we saw a chart as to how the European traders saw other cultures (the yellow man or asian was second to whites since he was technologically advanced).

And here lies the core problem and the natural potential for antisemitism.
Jews are NOT supposed to be different from anyone else, including 'Hitler'. Jews are not supposed to be better. not supposed 'to know better than that'. etc. Jews are as racist or non racist as all other people.
No one is impressed by being labelled a Nazi anymore. if anything it is considered a pet on the back for doing a good enough job and hard work to be reckoned with in the world today.

You are just going to have to get over it. Jews like anyone else, like to feel good about themselves.

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LoL jews like to feel good about themselves is not wrong just as an Arab kid from dearborn michigan likes to feel good. Nothing wrong but it becomes problematic when a religious man who has access to thousands of mind can influence his racist ideology upon other impressionable minds. I see this "get over it" attitude towards African-Americans who want America to be reminded if its horrible past in slavery yet, say nothing against jews who still to this day after WW2 is over and Hitler dead, still imprison people who had any dealings in the Nazi army....I see double standard here

Vendetta said:

LoL jews like to feel good about themselves is not wrong just as an Arab kid from dearborn michigan likes to feel good. Nothing wrong but it becomes problematic when a religious man who has access to thousands of mind can influence his racist ideology upon other impressionable minds. I see this "get over it" attitude towards African-Americans who want America to be reminded if its horrible past in slavery yet, say nothing against jews who still to this day after WW2 is over and Hitler dead, still imprison people who had any dealings in the Nazi army....I see double standard here

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Double standards are a wonderful thing. it makes global economy run every day.

Caladan said:

I've been living in Israel for 31 years. and I can tell you that the kind of Rabbi you have been talking to has only been eating **** from people like me.
yet I'll always be at awe by their determination for self preservation, family values, Torah studies. despite their abominable dogmas.

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So you are aware.....I do not doubt you have a decent soul. Ive never been to Israel accept recently. My purpose there was to vacation which Israel is indeed a beautiful country, however I wanted to know why so many humans lost their lives to this piece of dirt and gravel.

On a funny note I went to some nightclub and never thought Id see Israeli soldiers dancing in the clubs with the M-16's on their shoulders lol

Caladan said:

Double standards are a wonderful thing. it makes global economy run every day.

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Hahaha that maybe true

Vendetta said:

So you are aware.....I do not doubt you have a decent soul.

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Oh no. I think you analyzed me wrong. I am all about petrol and politics and harnessing the religious beliefs of others for these two sacred realities.

Ive never been to Israel accept recently. My purpose there was to vacation which Israel is indeed a beautiful country, however I wanted to know why so many humans lost their lives to this piece of dirt and gravel.

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There is a Kurdish man who said it better than most:

[youtube]u6aPgA5549g[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6aPgA5549g

Exactly.