Creationism's contribution to science

Sunstone · Jul 31, 2004

(1) Paul an Apostle writes,

New laws are not really new laws but already existing laws the scientists discover.

To say that new laws are not really new laws but already existing laws the scientists discover is like saying that a cartographer does not create a map, but merely discovers a pre-existing map. I fear you confuse the map with the terrain, Paul. The terrain pre-exists the map, but the map does not pre-exist the cartographers creation of the map. In science, reality pre-exists the theorem, but the theorem does not pre-exist the scientists creation of the theorem.

Unless, you are Plato.

If you are Plato, then you get very confused thinking about such things as this, and in your confusion, you come up with the idea that the map somehow pre-exists the cartographers creation of the map. Thats what Plato did when he came up with his notion of pre-existing ideals (or, forms, templates.) However, professional philosophers have shown Platos idealism to be what it is, and have consequently discredited it. Surely, you are not trying to revive it!

(2) Can you think of any contribution that creationist scientists have managed to make to science? I myself can think of none.

paul_an_apostle · Aug 1, 2004

Your exactly right Deut - It is a statement of faith - and there is no way to absolutely prove or disprove it in this world - we are far too limited in our scope.

But as C.S Lewis said (I think it was C.S Lewis) - 'In the final analysis, when science can no longer answer the questions, there remains God'.

Jayhawker Soule · Aug 1, 2004

paul_an_apostle said:
Your exactly right Deut - It is a statement of faith - and there is no way to absolutely prove or disprove it in this world - we are far too limited in our scope.

Talk about absolute proof/disproof is nothing but sophistry:

there is no way to absolutely prove or disprove the Unicorn
there is no way to absolutely prove or disprove the Faerie Kingdom
there is no way to absolutely prove or disprove the Demiurge
there is no way to absolutely prove or disprove the Sumerian Pantheon
there is no way to absolutely prove or disprove the Hindu Deities
there is no way to absolutely prove or disprove ...

The list is near endless.

paul_an_apostle said:
But as C.S Lewis said (I think it was C.S Lewis) - 'In the final analysis, when science can no longer answer the questions, there remains God'.

And it was Charles Darwin who wrote:

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.

So tell us, are you a Young Earth Creationist? Can you suggest some approximate dates for (1) the age of the universe, (2) the origins of life on earth, (3) the Global Flood, and (4) the Exodus/Conquest?

paul_an_apostle · Aug 2, 2004

Deut. 32.8 said:
So tell us, are you a Young Earth Creationist? Can you suggest some approximate dates for (1) the age of the universe, (2) the origins of life on earth, (3) the Global Flood, and (4) the Exodus/Conquest?

x. I'm not young at all - ;-) - But I am a creationist
1. nope - only an estimate based on palientological evidence that shows up on earth - which is probably not even close to the real age of the universe - afterall, God is eternal and that goes backwards as well as forwards
2. yep - Life on Earth as we know it to day is about 6000 years old
3. Yep - The Flood happened around 4200 - 4500 years ago - after Methuselah died
4. Yep - Exodus happened sometime around 3500 years ago. The Conquest commenced about 40 years

Mind you I'm doing this without any notes so my times may be a little off.

Ceridwen018 · Aug 2, 2004

paul_an_apostle,

I have one question. In general, what is the evidence you have for the earth being only 6000 years old? It seems to me that you're taking what the bible says and fitting everything else into it, instead of scientists (without relying on the bible) coming to that conclusion.

If the bible said the earth was 7000 years old, then the creationist theory would say that the earth was 7000 years old, do you see what I'm saying?

Jayhawker Soule · Aug 2, 2004

paul_an_apostle said:
x. I'm not young at all - ;-) - But I am a creationist.

We have at least one thing in common.

Thanks for answering the questons.

Ronald · Aug 2, 2004

DR. Dino, AKA Dr. Kent Hovind, a living Sience Teacher believes in creation, read about him on internet. He has some interesting teaching tapes.

(Q) · Aug 2, 2004

only an estimate based on palientological evidence that shows up on earth

Palaentological evidence would not likely reveal the age of the universe - our bones haven't been here that long. However, when taking measurements of chemical elements on Earth, old globular star clusters and old white dwarf stars, we find the results from comparing their ages remarkably similar - and of course, considerably older than 6000 years.

Life on Earth as we know it to day is about 6000 years old

Yet, Egypt was first settled in 8000BC, large scale construction was well underway in 6000BC and large settlements had been established all along the Nile by 4000BC with dynasties soon to follow. These are documented facts.

Do we merely ignore these facts in favor of a few opening paragraphs to a single book?

Ronald · Aug 2, 2004

Here in Texas there is a Dinosaur foot print, in the same wet mud, a man's foot print.
With Carbon 14 dating Dinosaurs were exstinct millions of years before man came into being. We got an error! Who you gonna believe? I believe God.

Mr Spinkles · Aug 2, 2004

No, Ronald, you do not believe God. You believe a bunch of other PEOPLE who say they got it from God.

(Q) · Aug 2, 2004

Here in Texas there is a Dinosaur foot print, in the same wet mud, a man's foot print.

Tsk,tsk, Ronald. Who did you think you were going to fool? The original Paluxy "man tracks" were a series of dinosaur tracks which were dug up and sold years ago. The most recent tracks were carved by men.

Either you didn't do your homework or were providing disinformation - which one?

Jayhawker Soule · Aug 2, 2004

Ronald said:
Here in Texas there is a Dinosaur foot print, in the same wet mud, a man's foot print. With Carbon 14 dating Dinosaurs were exstinct millions of years before man came into being. We got an error! Who you gonna believe? I believe God.

Good grief! Ronald, (Q) is being far too gentle. It is inconceivable that someone would raise such thoroughly debunked crap at this late date. An exhaustive reference can be found here. It is laughable to see fundamentalism unable to lift itself much above the Flintstones.

Pah · Aug 2, 2004

Ronald said:
DR. Dino, AKA Dr. Kent Hovind, a living Sience Teacher believes in creation, read about him on internet. He has some interesting teaching tapes.

I'm sorry, Ronald. What I've read of Kent Hovind on the internet portrays him as a charlaton and scholastic fraud. His offer of $250,000 for proof of evolution requires that the "big bang" be re-created in the laboratory. His claim of a 250+ page thesis is bogus - the school shows 101 pages in its files. The dissertation does not deal with the title - "The Effects of Teaching Evolution on the Students in our Public School System". The school (Patriot University) from which Hovind obtained his masters and PhD was a mission from Hilltop Baptist Church and has no campus. It is only accreditted by the American Accrediting Association of Theological Institutions and this "diploma mill" is not recognized by the US Dept of Education..

I hope the "teaching tapes" are free.

-pah-

painted wolf · Aug 2, 2004

Ronald,

I don't know who told you about Carbon 14, and dinosaurs but just so you know...
Dinosaurs are not dated with Carbon 14.... they are too old.
Carbon 14 is useful only on things younger than 50/60,000 years old. Older than that and their isn't enough C14 to make the test worth while. Infact they try not to use it for anything more than 45,000 years old if they wan't a realy good date.
To age Dinosaurs they use other methods of dating like OSL, Argon 39 and Argon 40 and various other tecniques.

So unless God told you that the dinosaurs were Carbon 14 dated then I wouldn't listen.
As for the Texas, "man tracks' the first ones are from Theropod dinosaurs that were walking 'flat footed', there are quite a few examples of this posture, some that still have nice toe marks intact. Some eaven have dinosaur butt prints along with them.

Many of the later tracks were hoaxes and are easily proven to be carved into the stone or modified 'flat foot' tracks.

wa:do

paul_an_apostle · Aug 3, 2004

(Q Yet said:
Your timeline is a little off ---

The Pyrimids were built, according to most historians, between 3000 & 2000 BC

Mizraim/Put (Egypt) was settled the first time after the Garden of Eden was closed to the public. It was settled the 2nd time after the flood.

"The land of the Nile, "Mizraim" in Hebrew, was one of the Oldest cradles of civilization dating back to around 3400 B.C. It is commonly held that Egyptian history can be divided into 30 dynasties. The Egypt of the patriarchs was the Middle Kingdom or 11th to 12th dynasties (around 2000 B.C), which was regarded as one of the high points of Egyptian culture. " Compiled from Ancient Egypt courses in UNC (University of Nort Carolina).

Pah · Aug 3, 2004

paul_an_apostle said:
(Q) said:

Yet, Egypt was first settled in 8000BC, large scale construction was well underway in 6000BC and large settlements had been established all along the Nile by 4000BC with dynasties soon to follow. These are documented facts.

Click to expand...

Your timeline is a little off ---

The Pyrimids were built, according to most historians, between 3000 & 2000 BC

Mizraim/Put (Egypt) was settled the first time after the Garden of Eden was closed to the public. It was settled the 2nd time after the flood.

I don't think so - just one piece of data from the Upper Paleolithic period 30,000 - 10,000 BCE:

http://www.touregypt.net/ebph3.htm
Complicating everything, however, is the discovery of a coexisting industry now labeled Silsillian (c. 13,000 BC) which effectively puts the early Egyptians back at the forefront of prehistoric technological development. Sisillian was a highly-developed microblade industry that included truncated blades, blades of unusual shapes made specifically for one task, and most significant of all, a wide variety of bladelets for mounting onto spears, darts, and arrows. There is almost no trace of earlier techniques such as Levalloisian, and Silsillian blades in some cases are thousands of years ahead of anything found in Europe from this period. The Silsillian Industry also premiered the creation of microliths. Microliths are small, fine blades used in advanced tools such as arrows, harpoons, and sickles, and since they are smaller, use less material. This latter development may have been due to the fact that in the Kom Ombo area, high-quality stone was in short supply. Additionally, the fact that these blades were used for agricultural tools such as sickles shows that by this time basic farming had begun, and earlier than had been previously thought.

Other periods both earlier and later (but still before 6000 BCE) are spoken of at History of Egypt

-pah-

(Q) · Aug 3, 2004

Your timeline is a little off --- The Pyrimids were built, according to most historians, between 3000 & 2000 BC

I said nothing of the pyramids, please pay attention. Egypt was settled some 4000 years before your alleged claim of the Earths age of 6000 years. These are facts, not mere speculations. By denying these facts you ignore the people who lived there and their entire history and heritage. Shame on you.

Ronald · Aug 3, 2004

(Q) said:
Here in Texas there is a Dinosaur foot print, in the same wet mud, a man's foot print.

Tsk,tsk, Ronald. Who did you think you were going to fool? The original Paluxy "man tracks" were a series of dinosaur tracks which were dug up and sold years ago. The most recent tracks were carved by men.

Either you didn't do your homework or were providing disinformation - which one?

Sorry, folks I didn't do my homework.
The first time I quoted outside scholarship, To fudge and manipulate facts is the tool of the adversary.
Pah, they were free and sounded good.
Forgive me?

(Q) · Aug 3, 2004

Sorry, folks I didn't do my homework.

It takes a lot of guts and fortitude to come forth and say that, and will command you a lot more respect.

Good job.

Jayhawker Soule · Aug 3, 2004

paul_an_apostle said:
2. yep - Life on Earth as we know it to day is about 6000 years old .

Permit me to recommend a book.

Archaeology of the Land of the Bible 10,000-586 B.C.E.

Annotation

Step-by-step, era-by-era, Mazar shows what each major archaeological discovery has to say about the mysterious stories of the Bible--from the beginnings of recorded of human habitation to the tumultuous period of the divided monarchy of Israel and Judah.

From the Publisher

The standard text on biblical archaeologyan award-winning, comprehensive introduction to the subject, from the very beginnings to the divided monarchy and the kingdoms of Israel and Judah.

From The Critics
Booknews

Israeli archaeologist Mazar (Institute of Archaeology, Hebrew U. in Jerusalem) introduces the achievements of the archaeological research in Israel and Jordan, and discusses its implications for our knowledge of the world of the Old Testament. He covers the period from the first permanent settlements to the destruction of the First Temple by Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonian domination of the country. Acidic paper. Annotation c. Book News, Inc., Portland, OR (booknews.com)

The name of the book is a hint.

Creationism's contribution to science

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