AK4
Well-Known Member
Like what do you have in mind? I cant think of one yet. I think it all is aimed to make us perfect rather we notice it at the time or not.
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Do you understand the New Testament
- Thread starter free spirit
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Like what do you have in mind? I cant think of one yet. I think it all is aimed to make us perfect rather we notice it at the time or not.
free spirit
Well-Known Member
AK4
You are amazing the way you defend a believe beyond our understanding.
you do not understand that what your believe is for the purposes of salvation useless, because Christ calls all to repentance. So how can "your theory" fit in his call to repentance?
it is a waste of time and resources, some mad man who believes that, is justified in saying "God has made me a killer, so I am doing the works of God, blame him for the evil that I do.
That theory has no place in the gospel of Christ, none whatsoever; it is like the JW who claim that the world is 6000 years old, and they push that theory with all strength and conviction, but what profit men has for believing that? none, absolutely none.
Paul could not help himself, for because of his knowledge, his message had fleshly arrogance in it, you see arrogance is evil, and he got the appropriate response from the unbelievers. Thats all.
Edit; I hope you did not think that God had put a little demon on Paul's shoulder, did you?
You are amazing the way you defend a believe beyond our understanding.
you do not understand that what your believe is for the purposes of salvation useless, because Christ calls all to repentance. So how can "your theory" fit in his call to repentance?
it is a waste of time and resources, some mad man who believes that, is justified in saying "God has made me a killer, so I am doing the works of God, blame him for the evil that I do.
That theory has no place in the gospel of Christ, none whatsoever; it is like the JW who claim that the world is 6000 years old, and they push that theory with all strength and conviction, but what profit men has for believing that? none, absolutely none.
He was given the "messenger" because Paul knew too much: and by knowing too much (knowledge gives arrogance) and pride and boasting rises their ugly head, which is the evil in man's heart, "or a thorn in the flesh". You must know that when we speak God's truth with confidence and fervor our arrogance come to the fore and we offend people of other faiths, and so they turn against us with verbal abuses and persecutions.
Paul could not help himself, for because of his knowledge, his message had fleshly arrogance in it, you see arrogance is evil, and he got the appropriate response from the unbelievers. Thats all.
Edit; I hope you did not think that God had put a little demon on Paul's shoulder, did you?
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AK4
Well-Known Member
Freespirit
AK4
You are amazing the way you defend a believe beyond our understanding.
you do not understand that what your believe is for the purposes of salvation useless, because Christ calls all to repentance. So how can "your theory" fit in his call to repentance?
Im assuming the theory you are referring to is the myth of freewill. In actuality, it is the belief in freewill that makes salvation or a need for a God and Saviour useless, but I will try to explain it from what you stated above.
Christ calls all to repentance. Repentance of what? Sin. Yes. What is sin? By definition it’s a missing of the mark. “For all have sinned (missed the mark) and fall short of the glory of God”. Now why have all sinned or missed the mark? Was it because of Adam and Eve? No. We only inherited death from them, not sin. So we all miss the mark and need to repent so we stop missing the mark. Can this humanly happen, by ones own power? Wasn’t this asked by the disciples? Yes.
25 When the disciples heard {this,} they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" 26 And looking at {them} Jesus said to them, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Yet what does this have to do with freewill and “my theory”? Everything. Just as you and many others have stated “we (man) have the power, the ability to reason, the free choices, etc etc to save ourselves”. What did the Jesus just say above? Or is what Jesus said null and void?
So what does this have to do with repentance and salvation and freewill? Okay, we need a Saviour, God, to make the impossible possible. Jesus just said that it is impossible for man to do it,but what does Christendom and the world teach. That IT IS possible by your own freewill, reasoning, power. Do you see what I am saying? They flat out say Jesus is a liar. Will they admit that? No. Is that what they are doing? Yes.
So what does verses like Php 2:13 (for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to do for {His} good pleasure) have to do with what Jesus said was impossible for man, but possible for God, salvation, repentance and freewill? Everything. It shows that man needs to repent of thinking that he can be God and have powers like God and can do what Jesus said only God can do. Man needs to throw down and repent of this God defying, God denying freewill and reasoning concept that he can do what only God can do and accept salvation from His Saviour and God.
Man needs to repent of this particular sin (which actually branches off into many many different areas of sin just from this one belief) to be able to accept and acknowledge God and Jesus as their Saviour.
AK4
You are amazing the way you defend a believe beyond our understanding.
you do not understand that what your believe is for the purposes of salvation useless, because Christ calls all to repentance. So how can "your theory" fit in his call to repentance?
Im assuming the theory you are referring to is the myth of freewill. In actuality, it is the belief in freewill that makes salvation or a need for a God and Saviour useless, but I will try to explain it from what you stated above.
Christ calls all to repentance. Repentance of what? Sin. Yes. What is sin? By definition it’s a missing of the mark. “For all have sinned (missed the mark) and fall short of the glory of God”. Now why have all sinned or missed the mark? Was it because of Adam and Eve? No. We only inherited death from them, not sin. So we all miss the mark and need to repent so we stop missing the mark. Can this humanly happen, by ones own power? Wasn’t this asked by the disciples? Yes.
25 When the disciples heard {this,} they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" 26 And looking at {them} Jesus said to them, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Yet what does this have to do with freewill and “my theory”? Everything. Just as you and many others have stated “we (man) have the power, the ability to reason, the free choices, etc etc to save ourselves”. What did the Jesus just say above? Or is what Jesus said null and void?
So what does this have to do with repentance and salvation and freewill? Okay, we need a Saviour, God, to make the impossible possible. Jesus just said that it is impossible for man to do it,but what does Christendom and the world teach. That IT IS possible by your own freewill, reasoning, power. Do you see what I am saying? They flat out say Jesus is a liar. Will they admit that? No. Is that what they are doing? Yes.
So what does verses like Php 2:13 (for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to do for {His} good pleasure) have to do with what Jesus said was impossible for man, but possible for God, salvation, repentance and freewill? Everything. It shows that man needs to repent of thinking that he can be God and have powers like God and can do what Jesus said only God can do. Man needs to throw down and repent of this God defying, God denying freewill and reasoning concept that he can do what only God can do and accept salvation from His Saviour and God.
Man needs to repent of this particular sin (which actually branches off into many many different areas of sin just from this one belief) to be able to accept and acknowledge God and Jesus as their Saviour.
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AK4
Well-Known Member
it is a waste of time and resources, some mad man who believes that, is justified in saying "God has made me a killer, so I am doing the works of God, blame him for the evil that I do. That theory has no place in the gospel of Christ, none whatsoever;
No you are twisting my words around. I said man falls victim to their own lusts and pride or is coerced by satan to do things that they ought not to do. God doesnt make them do it, but they couldnt have done anything other than what the circumstances presented in front of them present. God didnt make the man a killer, but the circumstances this person experienced and his own lusts and pride and/or satan made this guy a killer. This man could say though I couldnt have done nothing other than what God planned beforehand or better yet he could say I couldnt have done anything to thwart Gods plan or purpose. He could also say I guess this is what God has purposed for me because in no way could I have done anything different. But really he should ask and learn from it why did God create me for this for me, why was I created in the circumstances I was that I have become what I have become. Maybe this email may help you out
No you are twisting my words around. I said man falls victim to their own lusts and pride or is coerced by satan to do things that they ought not to do. God doesnt make them do it, but they couldnt have done anything other than what the circumstances presented in front of them present. God didnt make the man a killer, but the circumstances this person experienced and his own lusts and pride and/or satan made this guy a killer. This man could say though I couldnt have done nothing other than what God planned beforehand or better yet he could say I couldnt have done anything to thwart Gods plan or purpose. He could also say I guess this is what God has purposed for me because in no way could I have done anything different. But really he should ask and learn from it why did God create me for this for me, why was I created in the circumstances I was that I have become what I have become. Maybe this email may help you out
AK4
Well-Known Member
it is like the JW who claim that the world is 6000 years old, and they push that theory with all strength and conviction, but what profit men has for believing that? none, absolutely none.
I can agree with you on that, yet it is not just JWs who believe this theory, most of Christendom does.
He was given the "messenger" because Paul knew too much: and by knowing too much (knowledge gives arrogance) and pride and boasting rises their ugly head, which is the evil in man's heart, "or a thorn in the flesh". You must know that when we speak God's truth with confidence and fervor our arrogance come to the fore and we offend people of other faiths, and so they turn against us with verbal abuses and persecutions.
Paul could not help himself, for because of his knowledge, his message had fleshly arrogance in it, you see arrogance is evil, and he got the appropriate response from the unbelievers. Thats all.
Edit; I hope you did not think that God had put a little demon on Paul's shoulder, did you?
I knew you would respond like this and I started to put this answer in the last post but here is your answer and why it is important to go to the original words for more understanding
I can agree with you on that, yet it is not just JWs who believe this theory, most of Christendom does.
He was given the "messenger" because Paul knew too much: and by knowing too much (knowledge gives arrogance) and pride and boasting rises their ugly head, which is the evil in man's heart, "or a thorn in the flesh". You must know that when we speak God's truth with confidence and fervor our arrogance come to the fore and we offend people of other faiths, and so they turn against us with verbal abuses and persecutions.
Paul could not help himself, for because of his knowledge, his message had fleshly arrogance in it, you see arrogance is evil, and he got the appropriate response from the unbelievers. Thats all.
Edit; I hope you did not think that God had put a little demon on Paul's shoulder, did you?
I knew you would respond like this and I started to put this answer in the last post but here is your answer and why it is important to go to the original words for more understanding
free spirit
Well-Known Member
free spirit
Well-Known Member
An animal cannot willingly choose because it has no reason of the consequences of his choice. Man on the other hand knows that if he speed on the road he most probably will get a ticket.
Your last two questions are completely out of tune with the reality of humanity; You should have asked a more appropriate question like this, Why God has given me free will, what does he wants me to do.
free spirit
Well-Known Member
AK4
Well-Known Member
AK4
Well-Known Member
Do a word study on the word beast throughout scripture and where it refers to man. You will see how God calls us all beasts and how we are (before He gives us His spirit and one is part of the elect/few) no different than them. Yes in many ways we are above animals but in many ways (spiritually) God, not me, says we are like them.
GODS WORD SAYS THAT MAN IS A BEAST
"Nevertheless man being in honor abides not [does not endure]: he is LIKE THE BEASTS that perish" and "
he is LIKE THE BEASTS that perish: (Ps. 49:12, 20).
"One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, EVIL BEASTS, slow bellies [lazy gluttons]. This witness is true" (Titus 1:12-13).
"But these, as NATURAL BRUTE BEASTS, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption" (II Pet. 2:12).
"So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as A BEAST before thee" (Psalm 73:22).
"But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, AS BRUTE BEASTS, in those things they corrupt themselves" (Jude 10).
"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves ARE BEASTS" (Ecclesiastes 3:18).
"One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, EVIL BEASTS, slow bellies [lazy gluttons]. This witness is true" (Titus 1:12-13).
"But these, as NATURAL BRUTE BEASTS, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption" (II Pet. 2:12).
"So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as A BEAST before thee" (Psalm 73:22).
"But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, AS BRUTE BEASTS, in those things they corrupt themselves" (Jude 10).
"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves ARE BEASTS" (Ecclesiastes 3:18).
THE BEAST WITHIN / THE MAN OF SIN / THE SON OF PERDITION
I showed from the Scriptures in our last installment that we only become aware of the beast when we are standing on the "sand of the sea." AFTER our spiritual house built upon spiritual sand FALLS DOWN, and WE fall down. And this is precisely why Paul tells us that the "
day of Christ
shall not come [to US] except there come a FALLING AWAY FIRST
" (II Thes. 2:1-2).
This "fall" by the way is not a little slip or a little stumble. It is a complete and total SPIRITUAL FALL! We all come to Christ with a simple childlike innocence. But
BUT, once we are in "the church of our choice," we start to get educated in the ways of Christendom. We learn of many rules based on the unscriptural traditions of men. We delight in many of these rules and traditions (sometimes not all of them), and before we know it, our new religion sooner or later TAKES US RIGHT BACK INTO THE WORLD that we thought we came out of.
I asked God this question "If God has given man this great gift of freewill, why has everyones "great gift", except one, failed, malfunctioned doesnt work right?" "How is it that all of mankinds freewill fail to seek God and fall short of His glory?" I asked "if this gift is so marvelous, why does God say that "none seek God" and "all have sinned"? "Why hasnt anyones save Jesus freewill worked?"
My conclusion-- If we were given freewill, then its worthless, its junk. Whats the point of having something that'll always fall short of the glory of God? My answer in what i am to do came also when God showed His truths on this freewill.
AK4
Well-Known Member
Why? I am at rest in the Lord. I have entered His rest. The work is light really, it is God in me who is doing the work. "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless i live, yet not I, but Christ in me". The "Book" is in me and i am in the "Book". I dont have to do much for most of the stuff i type. It just "comes to me". I am eternally grateful for even just the little, even though compared to the world its ALOT, of the spiritual understanding God has given me. I have complete trust in Him. He broke me down so far that He was the only one i could depend on and He has never failed me.
Freespirit i am trying to show you what God meant when He said "Come out of her my people". There are many things in this world that is a lie and to make it worse its lies mixed in with truth. Being now able to see through alot of these lies, i am able to see just how good of a deciever the Deciever is. "And God saw that everything He had made (including the serpent) and it was good". Good for the purpose of what He purposed it for. I am at rest knowing ALL is in Gods hands and He is working ALL according to the purpose of His will and not mankinds malfunctioned, always broken, never worked freewill.
Believe it or not i pray for all to see through this delusion.
free spirit
Well-Known Member
"Delusion" It is something we believe, which is unreal.
The unreal demands to be explained with long letters or it will not stand, and that is what you are doing.
I cannot and will-not judge you for in your own way you have been a blessing to me.
there are many decision that we have to make in our life time, wittingly or unwittingly, but in the end all those who belong to God live and act within the will of God, for he is the lamp to our feet, the rest are in darkness, and the lusts of their heart is what is guiding them.
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free spirit
Well-Known Member
AK4
This is what Jesus said about the judgment that is to come, we read in Luke 11: 30 to 32, 'For just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so shall the son of Man be to this generation. The queen of the south shall rise up with the men of this generation at the judgment and condemn them, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh shall stand up with this generation at the judgment and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here."
If you care to notice that the Judgment has condemnation in it, also Jesus blame them for not repenting, obviously they willingly decided not to repent.
In Luke 12:54 to 57; we read "And he was also saying to the multitudes, When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, a shower is coming, and so it turns out. And when you see a south wind blowing, you say, it will be a hot day, and it turns out that way. You hypocrite! you know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time? AND WHY DO YOU NOT EVEN ON YOUR OWN INITIATIVE JUDGE WHAT IS RIGHT?"
The last verse written in upper case is clear for to do that you must have a free will.
In Luke 15:16 to 18, we read, "And he was longing to fill his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him. BUT WHEN HE CAME TO HIS SENSES, HE SAID HOW MANY OF MY FATHER'S HIRED MEN HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH BREAD, BUT I AM DYING HERE WITH HUNGER!
I WILL GET UP AND GO TO MY FATHER, AND WILL SAY TO HIM, FATHER, I HAVE SINNED AGAINST HEAVEN, AND IN YOUR SIGHT."
Here again when he reasoned about the situation he willfully decided what to do.
In the NT there are many instances were the decision is yours to make, "your theory" would do a lot of good if it thought how to use our God given reason with wisdom.
This is what Jesus said about the judgment that is to come, we read in Luke 11: 30 to 32, 'For just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so shall the son of Man be to this generation. The queen of the south shall rise up with the men of this generation at the judgment and condemn them, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh shall stand up with this generation at the judgment and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here."
If you care to notice that the Judgment has condemnation in it, also Jesus blame them for not repenting, obviously they willingly decided not to repent.
In Luke 12:54 to 57; we read "And he was also saying to the multitudes, When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, a shower is coming, and so it turns out. And when you see a south wind blowing, you say, it will be a hot day, and it turns out that way. You hypocrite! you know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time? AND WHY DO YOU NOT EVEN ON YOUR OWN INITIATIVE JUDGE WHAT IS RIGHT?"
The last verse written in upper case is clear for to do that you must have a free will.
In Luke 15:16 to 18, we read, "And he was longing to fill his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him. BUT WHEN HE CAME TO HIS SENSES, HE SAID HOW MANY OF MY FATHER'S HIRED MEN HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH BREAD, BUT I AM DYING HERE WITH HUNGER!
I WILL GET UP AND GO TO MY FATHER, AND WILL SAY TO HIM, FATHER, I HAVE SINNED AGAINST HEAVEN, AND IN YOUR SIGHT."
Here again when he reasoned about the situation he willfully decided what to do.
In the NT there are many instances were the decision is yours to make, "your theory" would do a lot of good if it thought how to use our God given reason with wisdom.
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free spirit
Well-Known Member
AK4
Part one
EFFECTIVE WORSHIP
how MAN is in the image of Got
How we came to have a FREE WILL
We all at some time, either alone, or within an assembly have taken part in worship, but in response to a Samaritan woman, Jesus revealed the requirements for an effective worship. We read in John 4 20 26: Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus said to her. Woman believe me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you worship the father. You worship that which you do not know; we worship that which we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the father in spirit and truth; for such people the father seeks to be his worshippers. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. The woman said to him, I know that the Messiah is coming, (he who is called Christ
when that one comes he will declare all things to us. Jesus said to her, I who speak to you am he.
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
The above scripture on the surface appears to be straightforward, but how do we do that, seeing that we are of flesh, and our perceived truth is not necessarily the truth?
Wisdom dictates that we should not venture in the realm that is beyond our grasp. First we should analyse our own spiritual makeup, for we should have an intimate knowledge of ourselves, for if we were created in the image of God, we should know which part of us is in the image of God, before we can understand what lies beyond.
In the book of Genesis 1 26 and 27, God laid the foundations of the character and purpose of humanity, for we read: Then God said, Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. And God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
So according to the above scripture we have the image of God in ourselves, but unfortunately mans imaginative and artistic skill fashioned God to resemble himself, male and female, and some of us even elevated animals as the form to worship. Others worship some object like the sun, the moon, the earth, or nature itself. Needless to say that they all are in error, because it is not the object, or creature, or our superficial appearance or gender that bear the image of God, but it is the essence (spirit) of God in us that bear the image of God.
It isnt difficult to identify the spirit in us that bear the image of God; because he has not been hidden in some dark place, but he is in the most forefront of our lives, if anything it is his ever-exposure that makes him invisible as it were.
For with his essence we are able to think, formulate plans and be creative, to have the power of the word means to be living souls. Just consider without this Godly essence we would be like animals, living in the limitation of instinct, and not living from the essence of unlimited freedom and intelligent reason.
So the God given ability to formulate reason with words is what makes us in the image of God, for he created all things by the power of his word, and like him we also plan and create things out of the reasoning power of our words. The ability to speak intelligent and creative words is truly what makes us living souls; therefore it is the breath of life itself. (Genesis 2 7.)
We all know that man was not content with the special status that God had allotted to him, because man was enticed by Satan to covet the likeness of the wisdom of God, by knowing good and evil. Genesis 3 5 6, records the advent: For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be open, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, (gratification of the body) and that it was a delight to the eyes, (gratification of the senses) and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, (gratification of the ego) she took from its fruit and ate, and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. And Genesis 3 22, confirms what took place. Then the Lord God said, behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
Moving a step further towards the understanding of ourselves we must realise that the source of coordinate actions of the body and precise utterances, reside in the spirit, there is no other plausible location. Have you ever searched your inner self to find the source of your words? For if you could find it you would be staring in the face of god, with a small g because it would be your own face you would be looking at. Our spirit has the ability to be immensely active, continually creating thought without disturbing the body, in our dreams for example, or in our private thought, he is the tenant of the body, and his presence and activity keeps our body alive, for the body without the spirit is dead. Our spirit and soul is so intertwined that to separate them is only possible to God.
We cannot see the soul but we can see and hear the affect of the soul, it can be either good or bad, because it knows both. Therefore it stands to reason to conclude that we are spiritual creatures covered with a body, (the apostle Paul calls it a tent) and our thoughts and words are the evidence that our essence bears the image of God.
A loving relationship either in the flesh or in the spirit is always based on communication; for how can anyone claim to have a relationship without talking to each other, or how can anyone fellowship with those that entertain adversary thought and or, behaviour, that cause offence to ones own character. So the exhortation recorded in the scriptures You shall be holy, for I am holy is an invitation to fellowship with him.
Therefore the soul has to become holy to meet and fellowship with a holy God. Ephesians 4 23, is very explicit with what we have to do, for we read: And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind. In other words, the soul must cleanse itself from the word of inequity, which is the integral and living evil side of our soul, which uninvited floods our mind; with the covetousness of immorality, boastfulness, jealousy, greed, fear, anger, envy and ambition.
However with the guidance of the Holy Spirit abiding in us, we are now able to suppress and put to death our unclean and undisciplined thoughts. And replace them with the discipline of love: With its manifestation of joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, meekness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Wisdom also demands that we understand the complex identity of our soul, which is formed by the spirit of our conscience, and the spirit of our mind, sharing control over our will and body, but the most important part of the soul is our conscience. For it is an independent judge of all that we do or say, it is also a passive but persuasive controller of our unfolding lives. (Man or woman without a conscience unquestionably would tend to be an evil person, and unfortunately there are many in the world whom have no conscience.)
Part one
EFFECTIVE WORSHIP
how MAN is in the image of Got
How we came to have a FREE WILL
We all at some time, either alone, or within an assembly have taken part in worship, but in response to a Samaritan woman, Jesus revealed the requirements for an effective worship. We read in John 4 20 26: Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus said to her. Woman believe me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you worship the father. You worship that which you do not know; we worship that which we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the father in spirit and truth; for such people the father seeks to be his worshippers. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. The woman said to him, I know that the Messiah is coming, (he who is called Christ
when that one comes he will declare all things to us. Jesus said to her, I who speak to you am he.God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
The above scripture on the surface appears to be straightforward, but how do we do that, seeing that we are of flesh, and our perceived truth is not necessarily the truth?
Wisdom dictates that we should not venture in the realm that is beyond our grasp. First we should analyse our own spiritual makeup, for we should have an intimate knowledge of ourselves, for if we were created in the image of God, we should know which part of us is in the image of God, before we can understand what lies beyond.
In the book of Genesis 1 26 and 27, God laid the foundations of the character and purpose of humanity, for we read: Then God said, Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. And God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
So according to the above scripture we have the image of God in ourselves, but unfortunately mans imaginative and artistic skill fashioned God to resemble himself, male and female, and some of us even elevated animals as the form to worship. Others worship some object like the sun, the moon, the earth, or nature itself. Needless to say that they all are in error, because it is not the object, or creature, or our superficial appearance or gender that bear the image of God, but it is the essence (spirit) of God in us that bear the image of God.
It isnt difficult to identify the spirit in us that bear the image of God; because he has not been hidden in some dark place, but he is in the most forefront of our lives, if anything it is his ever-exposure that makes him invisible as it were.
For with his essence we are able to think, formulate plans and be creative, to have the power of the word means to be living souls. Just consider without this Godly essence we would be like animals, living in the limitation of instinct, and not living from the essence of unlimited freedom and intelligent reason.
So the God given ability to formulate reason with words is what makes us in the image of God, for he created all things by the power of his word, and like him we also plan and create things out of the reasoning power of our words. The ability to speak intelligent and creative words is truly what makes us living souls; therefore it is the breath of life itself. (Genesis 2 7.)
We all know that man was not content with the special status that God had allotted to him, because man was enticed by Satan to covet the likeness of the wisdom of God, by knowing good and evil. Genesis 3 5 6, records the advent: For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be open, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, (gratification of the body) and that it was a delight to the eyes, (gratification of the senses) and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, (gratification of the ego) she took from its fruit and ate, and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. And Genesis 3 22, confirms what took place. Then the Lord God said, behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
Moving a step further towards the understanding of ourselves we must realise that the source of coordinate actions of the body and precise utterances, reside in the spirit, there is no other plausible location. Have you ever searched your inner self to find the source of your words? For if you could find it you would be staring in the face of god, with a small g because it would be your own face you would be looking at. Our spirit has the ability to be immensely active, continually creating thought without disturbing the body, in our dreams for example, or in our private thought, he is the tenant of the body, and his presence and activity keeps our body alive, for the body without the spirit is dead. Our spirit and soul is so intertwined that to separate them is only possible to God.
We cannot see the soul but we can see and hear the affect of the soul, it can be either good or bad, because it knows both. Therefore it stands to reason to conclude that we are spiritual creatures covered with a body, (the apostle Paul calls it a tent) and our thoughts and words are the evidence that our essence bears the image of God.
A loving relationship either in the flesh or in the spirit is always based on communication; for how can anyone claim to have a relationship without talking to each other, or how can anyone fellowship with those that entertain adversary thought and or, behaviour, that cause offence to ones own character. So the exhortation recorded in the scriptures You shall be holy, for I am holy is an invitation to fellowship with him.
Therefore the soul has to become holy to meet and fellowship with a holy God. Ephesians 4 23, is very explicit with what we have to do, for we read: And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind. In other words, the soul must cleanse itself from the word of inequity, which is the integral and living evil side of our soul, which uninvited floods our mind; with the covetousness of immorality, boastfulness, jealousy, greed, fear, anger, envy and ambition.
However with the guidance of the Holy Spirit abiding in us, we are now able to suppress and put to death our unclean and undisciplined thoughts. And replace them with the discipline of love: With its manifestation of joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, meekness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Wisdom also demands that we understand the complex identity of our soul, which is formed by the spirit of our conscience, and the spirit of our mind, sharing control over our will and body, but the most important part of the soul is our conscience. For it is an independent judge of all that we do or say, it is also a passive but persuasive controller of our unfolding lives. (Man or woman without a conscience unquestionably would tend to be an evil person, and unfortunately there are many in the world whom have no conscience.)
free spirit
Well-Known Member
AK4
Part two
On the other hand the spirit of our mind is a calculating self-centred personality, reacting to the worlds unfolding opportunities of possible gains, fear, and desires, often overriding the better judgement of the conscience. But through our consciences retrospective judgement and shame for past evil words or deeds, we learn that the spirit of our mind in its natural state is a slave of corruption, sold into bondage to sin. The apostle Paul said in Romans 7 15, For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practising what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. According to that we are sinners because in our unregenerate state we have no effective control of our will. But now with the accomplished work of redemption of our Lord, and the gift of his grace he has set our will free; therefore we are now no longer obligated to obey sin. As 1st Peter 4 2, also says, So as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
To have our will freed from the shackles of sin is very important to God, for he sacrificed his son to redeem the freedom of our will. But only at our request he sends the spirit of his son into our heart to sanctify our conscience, and thereby setting the conscience free from condemnation for past sins. Also giving our conscience the right to change the course of our life, and to enter the consciousness of Gods truth. Hebrews 10 1 to 18 is explicit for it says among other things: For having once been cleansed we would have no longer consciousness of sins.
Our body is also fundamental to worship God, 1st Corinthians 6 18 to 20, is very explicit in describing the importance of our body for it says. Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.
At our request our body has become a vessel in which God dwells. But now it has to be made holy by the strength and determination of our new sanctified conscience, because we now are able to put to death the bodys unholy appetites, as Romans 12 1 2 says, I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable (useful) to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. The importance of keeping our body holy is obvious, for God will not openly use a defiled vessel.
Without a doubt, if we have exercised the new freedom and power of our sanctified conscience, and grasped the importance of our body as the vessel of God, and made his mind our own, we have inadvertently already experienced the joy ofworshipping in spirit and truth. (Or consciousness of holiness)
As I said before, the above glorious cleansing of our body and soul is only possible through the gift of freedom of our will, brought about by the presence in our conscience of the Holy Spirit. Our gratitude and thanksgiving belongs to him, who is our priest, and advocate, who also patiently lead us back to our God and father. Having therefore by his grace reached sanctification, of our spirit, (conscience) of our soul, (mind) and of our body, (vessel) we can now have the living hope of fellowship and enter beyond the veil of holiness in the presence of our God and father.
The attitude of worship will express, respect, obedience, and service, all wrapped in an uncovetous loving relationship with our Heavenly Father so that we may know his will, regarding the work of service that we must zealously render on his behalf to our fellow men. Because, if we have been sanctified completely, in other words if we are dead to sin and sin is death to us the love that God holds for the human race has become our own, and we have become partners with his son Jesus Christ to spread among men the gospel of salvation.
Because Truth in Gods eyes is not only that which is contrary to falsehood, but it is also a state of existence, therefore, the day will come when only Truth will exist in eternity. Then we can confidently say thatTruth is a state of unchanging holiness, the essence of God to which we by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ have become partakers.
In John 14 6, Jesus said, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the father, but through me. Yes!
He is the Way because we must follow the footsteps of his earthly life = repentance
He is the Truth because he is the embodiment of unchanging holiness = God
He is also the Life because he is the eternal Word = life
It is fitting for the wisdom of God to sum it all up with this one phrase.
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
Glory to God
Part two
On the other hand the spirit of our mind is a calculating self-centred personality, reacting to the worlds unfolding opportunities of possible gains, fear, and desires, often overriding the better judgement of the conscience. But through our consciences retrospective judgement and shame for past evil words or deeds, we learn that the spirit of our mind in its natural state is a slave of corruption, sold into bondage to sin. The apostle Paul said in Romans 7 15, For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practising what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. According to that we are sinners because in our unregenerate state we have no effective control of our will. But now with the accomplished work of redemption of our Lord, and the gift of his grace he has set our will free; therefore we are now no longer obligated to obey sin. As 1st Peter 4 2, also says, So as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
To have our will freed from the shackles of sin is very important to God, for he sacrificed his son to redeem the freedom of our will. But only at our request he sends the spirit of his son into our heart to sanctify our conscience, and thereby setting the conscience free from condemnation for past sins. Also giving our conscience the right to change the course of our life, and to enter the consciousness of Gods truth. Hebrews 10 1 to 18 is explicit for it says among other things: For having once been cleansed we would have no longer consciousness of sins.
Our body is also fundamental to worship God, 1st Corinthians 6 18 to 20, is very explicit in describing the importance of our body for it says. Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.
At our request our body has become a vessel in which God dwells. But now it has to be made holy by the strength and determination of our new sanctified conscience, because we now are able to put to death the bodys unholy appetites, as Romans 12 1 2 says, I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable (useful) to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. The importance of keeping our body holy is obvious, for God will not openly use a defiled vessel.
Without a doubt, if we have exercised the new freedom and power of our sanctified conscience, and grasped the importance of our body as the vessel of God, and made his mind our own, we have inadvertently already experienced the joy ofworshipping in spirit and truth. (Or consciousness of holiness)
As I said before, the above glorious cleansing of our body and soul is only possible through the gift of freedom of our will, brought about by the presence in our conscience of the Holy Spirit. Our gratitude and thanksgiving belongs to him, who is our priest, and advocate, who also patiently lead us back to our God and father. Having therefore by his grace reached sanctification, of our spirit, (conscience) of our soul, (mind) and of our body, (vessel) we can now have the living hope of fellowship and enter beyond the veil of holiness in the presence of our God and father.
The attitude of worship will express, respect, obedience, and service, all wrapped in an uncovetous loving relationship with our Heavenly Father so that we may know his will, regarding the work of service that we must zealously render on his behalf to our fellow men. Because, if we have been sanctified completely, in other words if we are dead to sin and sin is death to us the love that God holds for the human race has become our own, and we have become partners with his son Jesus Christ to spread among men the gospel of salvation.
Because Truth in Gods eyes is not only that which is contrary to falsehood, but it is also a state of existence, therefore, the day will come when only Truth will exist in eternity. Then we can confidently say thatTruth is a state of unchanging holiness, the essence of God to which we by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ have become partakers.
In John 14 6, Jesus said, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the father, but through me. Yes!
He is the Way because we must follow the footsteps of his earthly life = repentance
He is the Truth because he is the embodiment of unchanging holiness = God
He is also the Life because he is the eternal Word = life
It is fitting for the wisdom of God to sum it all up with this one phrase.
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
Glory to God
AK4
Well-Known Member
Quote freespirit
If you care to notice that the Judgment has condemnation in it, also Jesus blame them for not repenting, obviously they willingly decided not to repent.
Judgment and condemnation are from the same greek word. Yes they did willingly. We do have a will, an ability to make choices. I wave the banner for this. Freewill or free choices we dont.
In Luke 12:54 to 57; we read "And he was also saying to the multitudes, When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, a shower is coming, and so it turns out. And when you see a south wind blowing, you say, it will be a hot day, and it turns out that way. You hypocrite! you know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time? AND WHY DO YOU NOT EVEN ON YOUR OWN INITIATIVE JUDGE WHAT IS RIGHT?"
The last verse written in upper case is clear for to do that you must have a free will.
Well it seems as if you got that translation from the NASB. It funny because its the only one that translate that verse like that own initiative. And it doesnt match the greek when stated own initiative. All others translate it And why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?.
Yes we have been given an ability to reason and judge, but I know you know that God grants some with the ability to do this correctly and some not. Just look how jews reason and judge the NT. Theres one good example. But how this becomes freewill I dont see it.
In Luke 15:16 to 18, we read, "And he was longing to fill his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him. BUT WHEN HE CAME TO HIS SENSES, HE SAID HOW MANY OF MY FATHER'S HIRED MEN HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH BREAD, BUT I AM DYING HERE WITH HUNGER!
I WILL GET UP AND GO TO MY FATHER, AND WILL SAY TO HIM, FATHER, I HAVE SINNED AGAINST HEAVEN, AND IN YOUR SIGHT."
Here again when he reasoned about the situation he willfully decided what to do.
Do you see the circumstances God placed upon him to want and to will and to do to come back to his Father? This is a prime example of what that Php 2:13 verse is saying and how God controls everything through circumstances. Yes God MADE HIM, brought about, put him through circumstances to where he would will/choose to come back to his father. This is how God works. He doesnt make you do something, He places circumstances in front of you to where you will willfully/voluntarily choose/decide/reason to do something (and that something is the only something you could have choosen). Sounds like a contradiction doesnt it? Its not, it just takes higher spiritual understanding to see the Depths of God and His workings. In all this where is anyones will/choices, free. Where do you see in that parable that the son chose freely, with absolutely no causes or circumstances to go back to his father? You dont, thus his will was caused to make a decision to go back to his father, thus his will, his choice, his reasoning was not free.
See you still willfully decided to do whatever, but it is God who directs your steps or works in you both to will and to do.
In the NT there are many instances were the decision is yours to make, "your theory" would do a lot of good if it thought how to use our God given reason with wisdom
Again you have to see the difference between freewill/free choice verses caused will/caused choice.
If you care to notice that the Judgment has condemnation in it, also Jesus blame them for not repenting, obviously they willingly decided not to repent.
Judgment and condemnation are from the same greek word. Yes they did willingly. We do have a will, an ability to make choices. I wave the banner for this. Freewill or free choices we dont.
In Luke 12:54 to 57; we read "And he was also saying to the multitudes, When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, a shower is coming, and so it turns out. And when you see a south wind blowing, you say, it will be a hot day, and it turns out that way. You hypocrite! you know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time? AND WHY DO YOU NOT EVEN ON YOUR OWN INITIATIVE JUDGE WHAT IS RIGHT?"
The last verse written in upper case is clear for to do that you must have a free will.
Well it seems as if you got that translation from the NASB. It funny because its the only one that translate that verse like that own initiative. And it doesnt match the greek when stated own initiative. All others translate it And why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?.
Yes we have been given an ability to reason and judge, but I know you know that God grants some with the ability to do this correctly and some not. Just look how jews reason and judge the NT. Theres one good example. But how this becomes freewill I dont see it.
In Luke 15:16 to 18, we read, "And he was longing to fill his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him. BUT WHEN HE CAME TO HIS SENSES, HE SAID HOW MANY OF MY FATHER'S HIRED MEN HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH BREAD, BUT I AM DYING HERE WITH HUNGER!
I WILL GET UP AND GO TO MY FATHER, AND WILL SAY TO HIM, FATHER, I HAVE SINNED AGAINST HEAVEN, AND IN YOUR SIGHT."
Here again when he reasoned about the situation he willfully decided what to do.
Do you see the circumstances God placed upon him to want and to will and to do to come back to his Father? This is a prime example of what that Php 2:13 verse is saying and how God controls everything through circumstances. Yes God MADE HIM, brought about, put him through circumstances to where he would will/choose to come back to his father. This is how God works. He doesnt make you do something, He places circumstances in front of you to where you will willfully/voluntarily choose/decide/reason to do something (and that something is the only something you could have choosen). Sounds like a contradiction doesnt it? Its not, it just takes higher spiritual understanding to see the Depths of God and His workings. In all this where is anyones will/choices, free. Where do you see in that parable that the son chose freely, with absolutely no causes or circumstances to go back to his father? You dont, thus his will was caused to make a decision to go back to his father, thus his will, his choice, his reasoning was not free.
See you still willfully decided to do whatever, but it is God who directs your steps or works in you both to will and to do.
In the NT there are many instances were the decision is yours to make, "your theory" would do a lot of good if it thought how to use our God given reason with wisdom
Again you have to see the difference between freewill/free choice verses caused will/caused choice.
AK4
Well-Known Member
Freespirit, I want to apologize for how straight forward I am in response to this article (and others), but I just cant. Only because we are to be straight forward with the truth. It may sound as if I am being harsh or abrasive but that is not my intent. We are to “preach with sound doctrine and expose those who contradict” (Titus 1:9) and Jesus along with the rest of the Apostles were straight forward with those who contradict. I am not attacking you, I am the doctrines, whether you recognize that or not, that even I was once in line with. Again I apologize but I don’t because all I am doing is stating the truth from scriptures and the scriptures have nothing to apologize from. However I really do enjoy our conversations here.
EFFECTIVE WORSHIP
how MAN is in the image of Got
How we came to have a FREE WILL
The above scripture on the surface appears to be straightforward, but how do we do that, seeing that we are of flesh, and our perceived truth is not necessarily the truth?
Please notice what you just said here.
Wisdom dictates that we should not venture in the realm that is beyond our grasp. First we should analyse our own spiritual makeup, for we should have an intimate knowledge of ourselves, for if we were created in the image of God, we should know which part of us is in the image of God, before we can understand what lies beyond.
We are being created in His image. We are not created/done in His image.
In the book of Genesis 1 – 26 and 27, God laid the foundations of the character and purpose of humanity, for we read: “Then God said, Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. And God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”
The proper wording is “Let us BE MAKING man in our image”…”and God is creating man in His image, in the image of God He CREATES him”. This makes a big difference to what is popularly taught.
For with his essence we are able to think, formulate plans and be creative, to have the power of the word means to be living souls. Just consider without this Godly essence we would be like animals, living in the limitation of instinct, and not living from the essence of unlimited freedom and intelligent reason.
Now the scriptures I already showed you about man being called by God wild, does what you believe and say after whats underlined match the scriptures?
And what does God call our wisdom?
"Where is the wise? Where is the Scribe? Where is the disputer [debater] of this world? Has not God made foolish [Gk: ‘stupid’] the wisdom of this world?" (I Cor. 1:20).
Notice that it is not the "foolishness" of this world that God says is stupid, but rather it is the "wisdom" of this world that is stupidity to God!
So the God given ability to formulate reason with words is what makes us in the image of God, for he created all things by the power of his word, and like him we also plan and create things out of the reasoning power of our words. The ability to speak intelligent and creative words is truly what makes us living souls; therefore it is the breath of life itself. (Genesis 2 – 7.)
We all know that man was not content with the special status that God had allotted to him,
Is there a scripture that says man was not content with this “special status”? I know not one.
Therefore it stands to reason to conclude that we are spiritual creatures covered with a body, (the apostle Paul calls it a tent) and our thoughts and words are the evidence that our essence bears the image of God.
This reasoning that we are spiritual creatures goes against all scripture. What would be the purpose of the resurrection if we are spiritual creatures? What does Paul tell us? We go from mortal to immortal, corruption to incorruption, a natural body to a spiritual body. Nothing about a spiritual creature inside a mortal body.
Part two
On the other hand the spirit of our mind is a calculating self-centred personality,
Isnt this what Ive been saying about this freewill business and what this scripture is saying
"…oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God [‘as a god’] sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God [‘is a god’]" (II Thes. 2:4)?
reacting to the world’s unfolding opportunities of possible gains, fear, and desires, often overriding the better judgement of the conscience. But through our conscience’s retrospective judgement and shame for past evil words or deeds, we learn that the spirit of our mind in its natural state is a slave of corruption, sold into bondage to sin.
Yet you admit this but don’t admit the scripture and others like that say “it is an experience of EVIL GOD has given humanity”. And that God doesn’t use evil. You have to make a decision on what to believe, either contradictions or a truth. You say sold into bondage. Who sold us? Satan? Ourselves? No God. What saith the scriptures:
Ro 8:20 - For the creature was made subject to vanity (what is devoid of truth and appropriateness perverseness, depravity frailty, want of vigour)not willingly, but by reason OF HIM (who is the Him? Satan? Man? Or God Himself?) who hath subjected the same in hope (well theres your answer. The same one who subjected us to vanity is the same one who subjected us to hope. So will you answer this honestly?)
In just this one verse can you see how God is using this evil world and all the evil in it, including people, to produce perfect sons and daughters?
The apostle Paul said in Romans 7 – 15, “For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practising what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.” According to that we are sinners because in our unregenerate state we have no effective control of our will.
No we are sinners because God made us to be spiritually weak or with a“heart is desperately weak”.
But now with the accomplished work of redemption of our Lord, and the gift of his grace he has set our will free; therefore we are now no longer obligated to obey sin.
Set our will free? Even an unconverted unbeliever is not obligated to obey sin. Lets go by what you say. We were a slave to sin then we become free right? Nope because we would go from slave to sin to a slave to Christ or to a slave of righteousness. Either way our will not free. So even with your own reasoning, freewill is destroyed.
EFFECTIVE WORSHIP
how MAN is in the image of Got
How we came to have a FREE WILL
The above scripture on the surface appears to be straightforward, but how do we do that, seeing that we are of flesh, and our perceived truth is not necessarily the truth?
Please notice what you just said here.
Wisdom dictates that we should not venture in the realm that is beyond our grasp. First we should analyse our own spiritual makeup, for we should have an intimate knowledge of ourselves, for if we were created in the image of God, we should know which part of us is in the image of God, before we can understand what lies beyond.
We are being created in His image. We are not created/done in His image.
In the book of Genesis 1 – 26 and 27, God laid the foundations of the character and purpose of humanity, for we read: “Then God said, Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. And God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”
The proper wording is “Let us BE MAKING man in our image”…”and God is creating man in His image, in the image of God He CREATES him”. This makes a big difference to what is popularly taught.
For with his essence we are able to think, formulate plans and be creative, to have the power of the word means to be living souls. Just consider without this Godly essence we would be like animals, living in the limitation of instinct, and not living from the essence of unlimited freedom and intelligent reason.
Now the scriptures I already showed you about man being called by God wild, does what you believe and say after whats underlined match the scriptures?
And what does God call our wisdom?
"Where is the wise? Where is the Scribe? Where is the disputer [debater] of this world? Has not God made foolish [Gk: ‘stupid’] the wisdom of this world?" (I Cor. 1:20).
Notice that it is not the "foolishness" of this world that God says is stupid, but rather it is the "wisdom" of this world that is stupidity to God!
So the God given ability to formulate reason with words is what makes us in the image of God, for he created all things by the power of his word, and like him we also plan and create things out of the reasoning power of our words. The ability to speak intelligent and creative words is truly what makes us living souls; therefore it is the breath of life itself. (Genesis 2 – 7.)
We all know that man was not content with the special status that God had allotted to him,
Is there a scripture that says man was not content with this “special status”? I know not one.
Therefore it stands to reason to conclude that we are spiritual creatures covered with a body, (the apostle Paul calls it a tent) and our thoughts and words are the evidence that our essence bears the image of God.
This reasoning that we are spiritual creatures goes against all scripture. What would be the purpose of the resurrection if we are spiritual creatures? What does Paul tell us? We go from mortal to immortal, corruption to incorruption, a natural body to a spiritual body. Nothing about a spiritual creature inside a mortal body.
Part two
On the other hand the spirit of our mind is a calculating self-centred personality,
Isnt this what Ive been saying about this freewill business and what this scripture is saying
"…oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God [‘as a god’] sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God [‘is a god’]" (II Thes. 2:4)?
reacting to the world’s unfolding opportunities of possible gains, fear, and desires, often overriding the better judgement of the conscience. But through our conscience’s retrospective judgement and shame for past evil words or deeds, we learn that the spirit of our mind in its natural state is a slave of corruption, sold into bondage to sin.
Yet you admit this but don’t admit the scripture and others like that say “it is an experience of EVIL GOD has given humanity”. And that God doesn’t use evil. You have to make a decision on what to believe, either contradictions or a truth. You say sold into bondage. Who sold us? Satan? Ourselves? No God. What saith the scriptures:
Ro 8:20 - For the creature was made subject to vanity (what is devoid of truth and appropriateness perverseness, depravity frailty, want of vigour)not willingly, but by reason OF HIM (who is the Him? Satan? Man? Or God Himself?) who hath subjected the same in hope (well theres your answer. The same one who subjected us to vanity is the same one who subjected us to hope. So will you answer this honestly?)
In just this one verse can you see how God is using this evil world and all the evil in it, including people, to produce perfect sons and daughters?
The apostle Paul said in Romans 7 – 15, “For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practising what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.” According to that we are sinners because in our unregenerate state we have no effective control of our will.
No we are sinners because God made us to be spiritually weak or with a“heart is desperately weak”.
But now with the accomplished work of redemption of our Lord, and the gift of his grace he has set our will free; therefore we are now no longer obligated to obey sin.
Set our will free? Even an unconverted unbeliever is not obligated to obey sin. Lets go by what you say. We were a slave to sin then we become free right? Nope because we would go from slave to sin to a slave to Christ or to a slave of righteousness. Either way our will not free. So even with your own reasoning, freewill is destroyed.
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AK4
Well-Known Member
To have our will freed from the shackles of sin is very important to God, for he sacrificed his son to redeem the freedom of our will.
As shown above we are still slaves. Just one is better than the other.
But only at our request he sends the spirit of his son into our heart to sanctify our conscience,
Ah ha, I caught you. Remember I said this “Yet what does this have to do with freewill and “my theory”? Everything. Just as you and many others have stated “we (man) have the power, the ability to reason, the free choices, etc etc to save ourselves”. What did the Jesus just say above? Or is what Jesus said null and void?
So what does this have to do with repentance and salvation and freewill? Okay, we need a Saviour, God, to make the impossible possible. Jesus just said that it is impossible for man to do it,but what does Christendom and the world teach. That IT IS possible by your own freewill, reasoning, power. Do you see what I am saying? They flat out say Jesus is a liar. Will they admit that? No. Is that what they are doing? Yes.
So what does verses like Php 2:13 (for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to do for {His} good pleasure) have to do with what Jesus said was impossible for man, but possible for God, salvation, repentance and freewill? Everything. It shows that man needs to repent of thinking that he can be God and have powers like God and can do what Jesus said only God can do. Man needs to throw down and repent of this God defying, God denying freewill and reasoning concept that he can do what only God can do and accept salvation from His Saviour and God.
And you responded “I never heard any preacher say that; but they do say, you must co-operate with God by repenting”
I was taught, once you learn a spiritual truth, don’t ever let it go. And one of the spiritual truths is to catch contradictions and pay attention to all the words. Notice you said but only at our request yet the scriptures teach otherwise that it is ONLY by Gods choosing. I told you, this is exactly how Christianity is and I will quote myself again on this “They flat out say Jesus is a liar. Will they admit that? No. Is that what they are doing? Yes.
Jesus just said that it is impossible for man to do it,but what does Christendom and the world teach. That IT IS possible by your own freewill, reasoning, power. Do you see what I am saying?
and thereby setting the conscience free from condemnation for past sins. Also giving our conscience the right to change the course of our life,
What happen to “being predestinated”? Did they by themselves with now a freewill able to change what God has predestinated?
Our body is also fundamental to worship God, 1st Corinthians 6 – 18 to 20, “... Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.”
Notice we were bought out of slavery of sin and sold into a slavery of righteousness. This may sound bad to some but not to me.
At our request our body has become a vessel in which God dwells.
God made you to want to will to do this. And all will do this voluntarily.
But now it has to be made holy by the strength and determination of our new sanctified conscience, because we now are able to put to death the body’s unholy appetites,
Do you see how God is taken out of everything with this statement and belief in freewill? Its right there plain as day. I beg you to look at that again and compare it to “for IT IS GOD who works in you TO WILL AND TO DO.
If you cant see it I will show what you said
But now [after my request that He (God) sent me the spirit of His Son] it has to be made holy by [MY] strength and determination [my power, my freewill, not God working in me to will and to do] of our new sanctified conscience [sanctified freewill]
Basically you said but now it has to be made holy by the strength and determination of our new sanctified freewill and we still don’t need God to work in us to will and to do. Who needs God after we are saved? That’s it in a nutshell. We didn’t need Him before--- until we recognized He died for our sins, we ask for powers and after He grants our freewill with “better powers” we don’t need Him any more. Do you see the blasphemy?
As I said before, the above glorious cleansing of our body and soul is only possible through the gift of freedom of our will,
Actually its just the opposite, it is from actually being shown that we have no freedom of will. This will truly cleanse you. And again do you see God replaced by our freewill or the man of sin who opposes and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God [‘as a god’] sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God [‘is a god’]. You now said we have the power to save ourselves or to cleanse our body and soul. Is this not what I said Christianity does? And you responded “I never heard any preacher say that; but they do say, you must co-operate with God by repenting”
Again I quote myself “Will they admit that? No. Is that what they are doing? Yes.”
brought about by the presence in our conscience of the Holy Spirit.
And so you are either saying the Spirit is only present in our conscience (therefore maybe not really real) and Hes there but does nothing, not “works in you to will and to do” you now have a sanctified freewill for that or you are saying Hes there but like a good shoulder angel telling what you should and shouldn’t do yet still is not influencing your will because its free (basically whats the point of it being there if it doesn’t influence your freewill).
In John 14 – 6, Jesus said, “I am the ‘Way’, the ‘Truth’, and the ‘Life’; no one comes to the father, but through me”. Yes!
He is the “Way” because we must follow the footsteps of his earthly life = repentance
He is the “Truth” because he is the embodiment of unchanging holiness = God
He is also the “Life” because he is the eternal Word = life
You quoted that scripture but what you wrote before it contradicts what is underlined.
As shown above we are still slaves. Just one is better than the other.
But only at our request he sends the spirit of his son into our heart to sanctify our conscience,
Ah ha, I caught you. Remember I said this “Yet what does this have to do with freewill and “my theory”? Everything. Just as you and many others have stated “we (man) have the power, the ability to reason, the free choices, etc etc to save ourselves”. What did the Jesus just say above? Or is what Jesus said null and void?
So what does this have to do with repentance and salvation and freewill? Okay, we need a Saviour, God, to make the impossible possible. Jesus just said that it is impossible for man to do it,but what does Christendom and the world teach. That IT IS possible by your own freewill, reasoning, power. Do you see what I am saying? They flat out say Jesus is a liar. Will they admit that? No. Is that what they are doing? Yes.
So what does verses like Php 2:13 (for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to do for {His} good pleasure) have to do with what Jesus said was impossible for man, but possible for God, salvation, repentance and freewill? Everything. It shows that man needs to repent of thinking that he can be God and have powers like God and can do what Jesus said only God can do. Man needs to throw down and repent of this God defying, God denying freewill and reasoning concept that he can do what only God can do and accept salvation from His Saviour and God.
And you responded “I never heard any preacher say that; but they do say, you must co-operate with God by repenting”
I was taught, once you learn a spiritual truth, don’t ever let it go. And one of the spiritual truths is to catch contradictions and pay attention to all the words. Notice you said but only at our request yet the scriptures teach otherwise that it is ONLY by Gods choosing. I told you, this is exactly how Christianity is and I will quote myself again on this “They flat out say Jesus is a liar. Will they admit that? No. Is that what they are doing? Yes.
Jesus just said that it is impossible for man to do it,but what does Christendom and the world teach. That IT IS possible by your own freewill, reasoning, power. Do you see what I am saying?
and thereby setting the conscience free from condemnation for past sins. Also giving our conscience the right to change the course of our life,
What happen to “being predestinated”? Did they by themselves with now a freewill able to change what God has predestinated?
Our body is also fundamental to worship God, 1st Corinthians 6 – 18 to 20, “... Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.”
Notice we were bought out of slavery of sin and sold into a slavery of righteousness. This may sound bad to some but not to me.
At our request our body has become a vessel in which God dwells.
God made you to want to will to do this. And all will do this voluntarily.
But now it has to be made holy by the strength and determination of our new sanctified conscience, because we now are able to put to death the body’s unholy appetites,
Do you see how God is taken out of everything with this statement and belief in freewill? Its right there plain as day. I beg you to look at that again and compare it to “for IT IS GOD who works in you TO WILL AND TO DO.
If you cant see it I will show what you said
But now [after my request that He (God) sent me the spirit of His Son] it has to be made holy by [MY] strength and determination [my power, my freewill, not God working in me to will and to do] of our new sanctified conscience [sanctified freewill]
Basically you said but now it has to be made holy by the strength and determination of our new sanctified freewill and we still don’t need God to work in us to will and to do. Who needs God after we are saved? That’s it in a nutshell. We didn’t need Him before--- until we recognized He died for our sins, we ask for powers and after He grants our freewill with “better powers” we don’t need Him any more. Do you see the blasphemy?
As I said before, the above glorious cleansing of our body and soul is only possible through the gift of freedom of our will,
Actually its just the opposite, it is from actually being shown that we have no freedom of will. This will truly cleanse you. And again do you see God replaced by our freewill or the man of sin who opposes and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God [‘as a god’] sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God [‘is a god’]. You now said we have the power to save ourselves or to cleanse our body and soul. Is this not what I said Christianity does? And you responded “I never heard any preacher say that; but they do say, you must co-operate with God by repenting”
Again I quote myself “Will they admit that? No. Is that what they are doing? Yes.”
brought about by the presence in our conscience of the Holy Spirit.
And so you are either saying the Spirit is only present in our conscience (therefore maybe not really real) and Hes there but does nothing, not “works in you to will and to do” you now have a sanctified freewill for that or you are saying Hes there but like a good shoulder angel telling what you should and shouldn’t do yet still is not influencing your will because its free (basically whats the point of it being there if it doesn’t influence your freewill).
In John 14 – 6, Jesus said, “I am the ‘Way’, the ‘Truth’, and the ‘Life’; no one comes to the father, but through me”. Yes!
He is the “Way” because we must follow the footsteps of his earthly life = repentance
He is the “Truth” because he is the embodiment of unchanging holiness = God
He is also the “Life” because he is the eternal Word = life
You quoted that scripture but what you wrote before it contradicts what is underlined.
free spirit
Well-Known Member
AK4
YOUR ARGUMENT IS USELESS, IT IS LIKE DEBATING THE FOLLOWING ARGUMENTS.
'IF ADAM AND EVE WERE THE ONLY COUPLE ON EARTH, THAN THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS COMMITTED INCEST.'
AND "IF EVE CAME OUT AF ADAM THEN HE HAD SEX WITH HIMSELF"
WITH ALL YOU DEEP KNOWLEDGE OF THE MYSTERIES OF GOD WORKINGS, YOU HAVE MISSED THE OBVIOUS.
YOU WROTE, (QUOTE) "ONE MOMENT THEY WERE AT EASE AND SAFE IN THE UPPER ROOM, AND A LATER MOMENT THEY WERE IN THE GARDEN SURROUNDED BY ROMAN SOLDIER" AS I SAID BEFORE, YOU SPIRIT IS NOT IN THE NT.
YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT THE ROMANS DID NOT ARRESTED JESUS.
WHO ARRESTED JESUS?
To know who arrested Jesus does not seem important for the purpose of the gospel, but if believers have been misinformed on such a small matter, how can we be sure that the rest of what we have been led to believe is correct? After all, no one wants to believe a lie.
Contrary to popular belief the Romans did not arrest Jesus, nor did they stand guard at his tomb. You may ask, if the Romans did not do those things, who did? The answer is simple; the Jewish temple guards did! It is possible that you didn’t even know they existed.
You should know that the Jews had a treaty with the Romans and enjoyed a certain amount of autonomy, the High Priest had at his command a number of temple guards, for in the gospel of John 18 – 3 & 12, we read, “Judas then having received the cohort, and officers from the chief priest and the Pharisees, came there with lanterns and torches and weapons.” In verse 12, we read, “ so the cohort and the commander, and the officers of the Jews, arrested Jesus and bound him, and led him to Annas first; for he was father-in-law of Caiaphas, who was high priest that year.” Any freethinking Christian would know that if the Romans arrested Jesus they would have taken Jesus to Pilate, and not to the High Priest.
The temple guard are mentioned again in ACTS 5 – 21 to 26, for we read, “And upon hearing this, they entered into the temple about daybreak, and began to teach. Now when the High Priest and his associates had come, they called the council together, even all the senate of the sons of Israel, and sent orders to the prison house for them to be brought. But the officers who came did not find them in the prison; and they returned, and reported back, saying, we found the prison house locked quite securely and the guards standing at the doors; but when we had opened up, we found no one inside.” Now when the captain of the temple guard and the chief priest heard these words, they were greatly perplexed about them as to what would come of this. But someone came and reported to them, “Behold, the men whom you put in prison are standing in the temple and teaching the people!” then the captain went along with the officers and proceeded to bring them back without violence.” It is obvious that the temple guards and the captain were Jewish, because in the above scriptures we can clearly see that the guards could freely enter the temple to arrest the disciples. Furthermore in the trial Pilate clearly demonstrated by what he did and said to be at a loss as to why Jesus was brought before him.
The temple’s guards also stood guard at Jesus’ tomb, for we read in Matthew 27 – 65, “ Pilate said to them, “You have a guard; go, make it as secure as you know how.” As you can see Pilate did not give them a guard but he said, “You have a guard.”
However, to know the above information should not make much difference to our faith, but to know the truth of how things unfolded is beneficial to our understanding, which is the light of knowledge. For it is written, “If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!” In other words, if we have believed a lie, how great is that lie.
Glory to God
YOUR ARGUMENT IS USELESS, IT IS LIKE DEBATING THE FOLLOWING ARGUMENTS.
'IF ADAM AND EVE WERE THE ONLY COUPLE ON EARTH, THAN THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS COMMITTED INCEST.'
AND "IF EVE CAME OUT AF ADAM THEN HE HAD SEX WITH HIMSELF"
WITH ALL YOU DEEP KNOWLEDGE OF THE MYSTERIES OF GOD WORKINGS, YOU HAVE MISSED THE OBVIOUS.
YOU WROTE, (QUOTE) "ONE MOMENT THEY WERE AT EASE AND SAFE IN THE UPPER ROOM, AND A LATER MOMENT THEY WERE IN THE GARDEN SURROUNDED BY ROMAN SOLDIER" AS I SAID BEFORE, YOU SPIRIT IS NOT IN THE NT.
YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT THE ROMANS DID NOT ARRESTED JESUS.
WHO ARRESTED JESUS?
To know who arrested Jesus does not seem important for the purpose of the gospel, but if believers have been misinformed on such a small matter, how can we be sure that the rest of what we have been led to believe is correct? After all, no one wants to believe a lie.
Contrary to popular belief the Romans did not arrest Jesus, nor did they stand guard at his tomb. You may ask, if the Romans did not do those things, who did? The answer is simple; the Jewish temple guards did! It is possible that you didn’t even know they existed.
You should know that the Jews had a treaty with the Romans and enjoyed a certain amount of autonomy, the High Priest had at his command a number of temple guards, for in the gospel of John 18 – 3 & 12, we read, “Judas then having received the cohort, and officers from the chief priest and the Pharisees, came there with lanterns and torches and weapons.” In verse 12, we read, “ so the cohort and the commander, and the officers of the Jews, arrested Jesus and bound him, and led him to Annas first; for he was father-in-law of Caiaphas, who was high priest that year.” Any freethinking Christian would know that if the Romans arrested Jesus they would have taken Jesus to Pilate, and not to the High Priest.
The temple guard are mentioned again in ACTS 5 – 21 to 26, for we read, “And upon hearing this, they entered into the temple about daybreak, and began to teach. Now when the High Priest and his associates had come, they called the council together, even all the senate of the sons of Israel, and sent orders to the prison house for them to be brought. But the officers who came did not find them in the prison; and they returned, and reported back, saying, we found the prison house locked quite securely and the guards standing at the doors; but when we had opened up, we found no one inside.” Now when the captain of the temple guard and the chief priest heard these words, they were greatly perplexed about them as to what would come of this. But someone came and reported to them, “Behold, the men whom you put in prison are standing in the temple and teaching the people!” then the captain went along with the officers and proceeded to bring them back without violence.” It is obvious that the temple guards and the captain were Jewish, because in the above scriptures we can clearly see that the guards could freely enter the temple to arrest the disciples. Furthermore in the trial Pilate clearly demonstrated by what he did and said to be at a loss as to why Jesus was brought before him.
The temple’s guards also stood guard at Jesus’ tomb, for we read in Matthew 27 – 65, “ Pilate said to them, “You have a guard; go, make it as secure as you know how.” As you can see Pilate did not give them a guard but he said, “You have a guard.”
However, to know the above information should not make much difference to our faith, but to know the truth of how things unfolded is beneficial to our understanding, which is the light of knowledge. For it is written, “If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!” In other words, if we have believed a lie, how great is that lie.
Glory to God
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MountainHumanist
Member
Free Spirit: I am new to this thread so I would like to revisit the original question. Is this a discussion about the historical accuracy of the NT? It's development over centuries? The formation of the canon? Can you be more precise about the nature of the original question?
In general, I would answer I know more about the NT than the average person but far less about it than many scholars. I guess you could call me an extremely amateur scholar but that may be stretching it. I find the NT fascinating in how it shows the development of a major religious movement over time and how theological concepts evolve.
In general, I would answer I know more about the NT than the average person but far less about it than many scholars. I guess you could call me an extremely amateur scholar but that may be stretching it. I find the NT fascinating in how it shows the development of a major religious movement over time and how theological concepts evolve.